Greetings Mini World;
I am a newbie here, but a seasoned Forum guy on another car site, (think American V8 and fiberglass body & Z06).

By May of 2012 I will need to buy my first daily driver in over ten years, I have been in a company car for that time, and I am overly excited, because I get to buy what I want. My shopping list is varied and two Mini models have peaked my interest, the Clubman and Countryman. These are both going to be tight on space for what I need, but I think they will work.
I am a early 40-ish male, married with a 3 year old daughter and I average 25-30,000 miles per year on my cars for work. My wife and I have owned two BMW's 335i and 535xi sedans. I do road course instructions for various car clubs, Miata and BMW, and would like to take the Mini out on the course, maybe once a year or so.

On to some of my questions;
I am leaning towards the JCW versions just for the additional power, is it worth the extra money for the JCW version or is it better spent getting the S version with the JCW tuning package, sport package and brakes? I optioned out an S with tuning etc. vs. a JCW and it was under $2,000 difference.

What are the physical engine difference in the JCW car versus an S? Is it the same block, different tuning?

Is it worth it to order the $500 Sport Suspension from the factory or do some thing aftermarket, I don't want to void the warranty or service agreement.

Do you have any supporting dealers that work close or below invoice on cars that are ordered? On the other Forum I am a member of they have various dealers around the country offering "Forum Specials".

Is there a better time to order the car? For a late May delivery, I would think I need to order by late Feb/early March?

Countryman JCW, when will it be released and will it have more power than the other JCW cars? I want a power to weight ratio of 10-11 to 1, and the Clubman JCW is closer to 13 to 1. So the Countryman will surely be over 13 to 1.

I am sure I will have some additional questions, but I would love to hear from the passionate owners that are out there. I spent two hours test driving the manual S versions of the Clubman and Countryman, and they are really fun cars, but you already knew that!

Thanks.

 

I'm far from an expert, but:

-The S and JCW share the same block. The compression on the JCW is slightly lower, and the boost level is higher. Plus some engine management changes to deal with that.

-Changing out the stock front sway bar on the MINI means removing the front sub-frame from the car, or at least partly removing it. Quite a bit of labor time and therefore $$$. I asked about getting the JCW sport suspension on a Justa, and the dealer told me it was only dealer-installed (for the Justa at least!) and would run about $1600 in labor, plus the parts cost. It is likely that installation of an aftermarket suspension by a shop would be pretty costly as well.

The "regular" sport suspension is installed at the factory, and I think has thicker sway bars and stiffer springs, together with the shocks that match those springs. That was the option I chose for my Justa.

-I believe that the JCW engines are all the same; all of the current JCW models have the same power at least. So the Countryman would have the worst p/w ratio, the Clubbie a middling ratio, and the Hardtop the best.

-No clue on getting a good deal. I wound up paying full list price for mine.

 

Thanks, good information. The thought the dealer told me the blocks were different on the JCW cars.

Any recommendation on lighter wheels that will clear the JCW brake calipers? Looking to reduce some weight via a wheel and tire combo. Plus what are the tire width sizes for the 17" and 18" wheels?

Thanks again.

 

You pretty much pay MSRP as per the MINI configuration web site.
If there is more than one dealer in your area then you might get some off. Some options are + installation.

 

I got $750 off MSRP when I attended a dealership event. (I test drove a Coupe)
Call the dealer and ask about what is going to be offered.

 

JCW motors have different pistons, to reduce the compression ratio half a point, and a different turbocharger as well as different tuning in the ECU and a different exhaust system. everything else, on the engine, is the same is the same.

The horsepower with the JCW kit is less than the factory JCW option but more than the S.

Dave

 

The clutch on the Factory JCW is also more stout than the one supplied on the Cooper S -- including an "S" with a JCW upgrade.

 

I got mine at 1500 above INVOICE price (which is about 1000 cheaper than MSRP). After I built the car online, waited 25 days and picked it up yesterday. Transaction was flawless.

 

The factory JCW engine has a stronger head, stronger pistons, larger turbo and an uprated gearbox and clutch. There may be a few other things under the hood, but these are the biggies. At max boost, I believe the S runs at about 13psi; the factory JCW is about 19psi. This is quite a significant jump and is what brings about the need for stronger parts. None of the upgrades in the dealer-installed JCW kit are for anything inside of the engine.

 

For 2010, the cylinder heads are the same between the Cooper S and the JCW

For 2011, they are different, because the JCW still uses the N14 motor and the Cooper S uses the N18 motor.

From RealOEM.com

JCW cylinder head part number- 11127577371

Cooper S cylinder head Part # - 11127577371

You are right about the other parts.

Dave

 

From: http://www.motoringfile.com/2008/11/...ory-jcw-coupe/

"The drivetrain received a handful of modifications by BMW (not all by the M division mind you). For starters the intake valves and valve seat rings were upgraded with more durable materials to withstand the increased temperature caused by the free-revving engine. The pistons (and this is where M came into the equation) have had their sidewalls reinforced and subsequently the compression ratio has been reduced to 10.0:1. The cylinder head wall thickness has increased to reduce potential stress during peak output."

Don't have the time right now to search for the actual press release...

 

If the heads were different, they would have different part numbers, but the part numbers are the same, so there is no difference between the cylinder heads on Cooper S engines and JCW engines.

Are you going to believe some automotive reporter or the factory parts website?

Dave

 

That's taken from BMW engineers who worked on the project. It's likely that BMW then used those parts in normal MCS production from that point forward (a move they usually make with BMWs).

 

If you order your car there isn't a ton of flexibility in pricing. What you see is what you get. There is about $800 in dealer holdback that pretty much anybody can get if you just ask. MINI doesn't have much/any financial trickery or haggling involved (based on my research). Right now you might find a dealer trying to get rid of a 2011 or their test driver, and sometimes those can come with hefty discounts.

 

I belong to the same site, but think American V8, and 1970 Chrome.

 

I read a number of postings like this before I ordered my car and believed them and got burned. I got $500 off and thought it was a decent dfeal because of what everyone seemed to be saying about dealers not dealing on ordered cars. After I ordered the car I did some more research and shopping and was able to get $1,100 off MSRP and then Motor-tober happened for another $750 off. I emailed my MA and told him I wasn't going to accept delivery on the car and ordered it with the other dealer. When I said I got burned, I didn't mean financially, but the whole thing resulted in my having to wait over a month longer for my car. The original one is on the dealer lot right now and the second one is in assembly in Oxford. Next ship 14 days away, 20 days at sea. Bottom line, they WILL deal on ordered cars. I don't think I could have gotten more than $1,100 off because no one else would take the deal (9 mini dealers within 60 miles of me).

 

If this would have happened at the Dealer I bought my 08 and the dealer I bought my 11 at I would have been out my deposit. Both dealers wanted a none refundable deposit. My 08 wanted 1000. My 11 is a loaded JCW. They said that because of the high price they needed 2000 non refundable down. Most dealers will not let you back out without losing something.

 

All good information guys, thanks. I am visiting a dealer later this week to review my various online "builds". I guess I am struggling with a 208 hp car for $40-44,000 for the way I built mine. My "must haves" include, navigation, xenon lights, sport suspension, heated seats & washers. My really wants are homelink, sunroof and I love the sport steering wheel and aero kit. But if I do this I want it, the way I want it!

For those of you that drive in the winter and have the aero kit, do you have clearance issues? I am not talking about driving into 6" snow drifts, just the occasional 2-3" storm while you are at the office, type of issue.

 

http://new.minimania.com/ArticleV.cfm?DisplayID=2071

MINI USA Official JCW MINI Press Release


"The engines for the MINI John Cooper Works and the MINI John Cooper Works Clubman are made at the BMW Group engine plant Hams Hall (Great Britain) where the engine units for all MINI model variations are manufactured. In the case of the top-of-the-range engine, there are a number of special modifications to the production process to do justice to the increased output and the resulting higher temperatures in the combustion chamber, thereby guaranteeing maximum reliability of the drive system. The engines are fitted with reinforced and specifically ground pistons as well as a cylinder head with optimised rigidity and modified gasketing. The intake valves and valve seat rings are also made of especially resilient material, and as compared to the engine of the MINI Cooper S there is a slight reduction of the compression."

Also, note that this was for the introduction of the ORIGINAL 2009 model. I have no idea what happened for 2010 and 2011. So, it is either correct OR MINI/BMW lied. Bearing in mind that there are legal consequences for fraud, which is it?

 

It's just that if the heads are different, how could you replace a damaged head on a JCW when the part numbers are the same as the head on an S.

Reporters get stuff wrong all the time, I have first hand experience with sloppy reporters.

Dave

 

MINI USA Official JCW MINI Press Release

These folks are NOT reporters. I would guess that they are either BMW employees or employees of the ad agency that BMW hires. This was the Official Corporate Press Release. Do you think they would deliberately lie and then wait for someone like you to look up part numbers?

You mentioned 2010 and 2011. Did you look up the part number for 2009?

Why couldn't have BMW used the JCW head on the S? I don't know how many JCWs they sold world-wide, but in 2009, I think it was 498 to the US, 67 to Canada and 33 to Mexico. Total for the US that year was 45,000+. It would make financial sense to use the JCW head on the S. It improves the reliability of the S, thereby reducing warranty claims. There is one less part to inventory and it spreads the tooling costs over the S and the JCW combined.

 

Actually, that makes the most sense.

Dave

 

The first dealer didn't even take a deposit so backing out wasn't difficult. The second dealer took a deposit (he was aware that I walked away from the first deal so I wasn't surprised that he took a deposit), but I didn't sign anything relating to the money. I gave him a check and he gave me a receipt. The only thing I signed was the build sheet confirming that it was correct, but it didn't say anything about money at all. Unless you signed something that specifically said the deposit was nonrefundable, it isn't, and I suspect they would also have to write up the whole deal, lock in the interest rate and do all the disclosures, APR, etc.

 

At least $1500 under for every MINI I have ordered. No inventory or floor plan interest, dealer still nets almost $2 grand. I made it clear I would never pay MSRP. And yes, I struggled with $40 grand MINIs but at the end of the day it's only $. My real challenge will be next year when I order the new roadster. Probably will be late summer before they will negotiate anything off full MSRP.

 

Just spoke with one of our Master Techs in the shop who also is our Shop Foreman. He did verify that the JCW motor is indeed different than the S motor. The JCW still uses the N14 (single vanos) motor that has been previously used in the older JCW models while the S models use the newer N18 (dual vanos) motor.