The biggest problem with front drive cars is that when the rear steps out, it’s counterintuitive to mash the gas in order to get the rear back in line. Natural tendency is to lift off the throttle. However, when you lift off, that just causes weight transfer to the front, which makes the rear want to go even more out of line and instant spin. I agree with Eddie, tune the car for under steer at the limit, especially in the Mini.

 

Of course, lifting off is a big input that affects handling...not only with FWD. I had a friend with at 911 that lifted in an over-steer condition and he was rewarded with a quick 360 spin. The easiest car I've ever driven was a 1977 280 Z...I could steer with the throttle on entrance ramp to the interstate. It felt as if the center of the car's weight was barely behind the front wheels. It had an inline six with a significant overhanging nose. Very fun car back in those days.

 

What njaremka said…

I grew up learning to drive RWD cars and drove a lot in the snow here in the NE. The backend steps out, let off the gas, and counter steer into it. The thing was, the backend of those cars stepping out was usually caused by an excess amount of gas. Power on oversteer. Power off, the backend reconnects, then ountersteer to correct the car’s trajectory.

This doesn’t work for a FWD car because the mechanism causing the backend to step out is different. In a FWD a loss of traction is typically caused by a shift in traction from the rear of the car to the front. One way to do this is to abruptly lift off the throttle in the middle of a corner, which moves weight from the rear of the car to the front of the car. Hence the shift in traction. This can be an effective way to help steer the car. Throttle steering, which is a practiced lift of the and reapplication of the throttle to help do a controlled rotation of the car. The problem is with too much lift. Once the rear of the car starts to slide the coefficient of friction between the tire and road drops significantly, and it is really hard to get that back. The only thing that can be done is to reapply the throttle to move the weight back to the rear wheels. However, if the backend has stepped out too far, one may not be able to correct the slide and counter steering will be ineffective. It is best to not let the slide to occur in the first place.

With that video are a set of comments where I corresponded with the driver. He said that he was too fast going into the corner and lifted off the throttle to slow down. As seen, that just created another problem.

In setting a car up, my fear is being in a high speed corner and having the backend start to come around without having lifted off the throttle. This can happen if the rear of the car is setup too stiff and/or there is too little camber set on the rear wheels. The problem in that case is that, if my foot is already to the floor (as in T3 at WGI), there is nothing that can be done to correct the slide. Counter steering doesn’t put the traction back into the rear wheels.

I have been on both ends of setting up my MINIs from one with the rear suspension too stiff to my current 2, both with a bit of understeer. The first didn’t end well. Now I subscribe to the Randy Pobst theory of car setup - Understeer and learn to drive to take advantage of it

Hope that helps.

 

Sorry, I didn’t see your post before making my post above. I see you understand some of what I wrote. The 911 is a perfect example of what I was writing about. However, the oversteer is caused by a different mechanism than what happens in a FWD car. In that case the weight balance to the rear of the car over powers the traction of the rear tires. The correction, however is the same. Add power to move traction to the rear. As for your Z car, it sounds like it was set at the edge of understeer and throttle steering then made a big difference. It is a great feeling when it works…

 

I have seen a lot posts by people who are new to taking their car to the track and the first thing they want to do is up the horsepower so they can go fast(er)….

My philosophy is the first thing you should want to do is up the brakes. Here’s why…


And have a well built car.

So scary…

Simply amazing how little damage there was to this Indy car considering the intensity of the crash. And Simon walked away.

 

I have just signed Albert up for 3 days of fun at Watkins Glen next month! Woo Hoo!

 

I am still planing to buzz over to WGI on Thursday with Albert for 3 days of fun. Friday will be an open track; Saturday and Sunday are full HPDE format. I am excited to have signed up to do professional data acquisition during this event and get data coaching. I watched this being done last year and it seems that there is a lot to learn.

Yesterday was Prep Day for Albert. On a car with only 14k miles on it, this mostly entails performing a flush of the brake system, change out the brake pads and put on the track tires. Then there is a quick check of ball joints and fluid levels. Oh yeah, check the wheels for cracks and tires for defects. I am sure there are a few other things I did.

How do you get a shop to understand that when you request that the brake fluid be change, that it means the old fluid is somehow removed from the reservoir and it is refilled with new fresh fluid then the lines are bled to get fresh fluid into them? I use a small vacuum hand pump to pull the fluid out of the reservoir. I have also seen a turkey baster used to do this. Oh, this is messy, at least when I tried to do it that way. Or my least favorite is to drain the fluid out of one of the brake caliper bleed valve and hope to not go too low in the reservoir and get air in the lines. Not that I have EVER done that….

So, I always bleed the brakes before an event, if I have recently done a full change prior to that. Well, I didn’t do the last brake fluid change in April. I had the dealer do it along with the State Inspection…. Oh boy, that was not what I thought I saw when I took the cap off the top of the reservoir. Nasty, brown brake fluid was staring back at me. This didn’t look “changed” to me. HOWEVER, I won’t be too harsh, as MINI doesn’t make it easy to change brake fluid in these cars. First they have buried the reservoir under cowling, with several nuts and a bunch of twist-locks that are a 10 min job (Ok a little exaggerated) to get undone and remove. God forbid if a car owner ever wanted to check the brake fluid level…. And don’t get me going about not having a dip stick…. Then there is the multi chambered reservoir that is near to impossible to fully remove the old fluid from. Even with the vacuum pump, there is enough residual old fluid in it to turn new fluid brown. So, maybe the dealer did “change” the fluid and it just “looked old”?

So, with no desire to test the theory that the fluid had been changed in April, and risk finding out what it feels like to have brake fluid boil while heading into a corner at 125 mph…

I preceded to do a full change out of the brake fluid with a fresh bottle of Motul 600 brake fluid. Vacuum out the old. In with the new. Bleed a bunch of fluid from each caliper and from both bleed valves on each of the fronts using a 15 psi pressure bleeder. Refill the reservoir and repeat the bleeding. Refill the reservoir. In total, an ounce or 2 less than a pint of brake fluid was used.

I feel better now.

Changed to the Carbotech XP12 brake pads all around. Changed the shoes to some pretty well worn ‘Stones. Did the other checks.

Then the monsoon rains came. Glad I am able to do this all in a garage, where Albert will sit until the rains depart and I can take him for a test drive in the dry.

And, yes, there is a chance of showers Friday.

 

I always do my own brake flushes. It's certainly very important when you are stressing the fluid as much as you do by tracking. I remove as much as I can from the reservoir, then refill it, then do the flush. I have a Schwaben brake fluid flush system that works great. I have NEVER (even using a helper to pump-and-hold the brake pedal before my Schwaben system) had brake fluid look dirty after a few months. I'd be VERY suspicious that it wasn't done correctly (or, at least as thoroughly as my definition of "correctly"). The way I do it, I don't get all the fluid out of the anti-lock system, but, I flush it more often than is required, and fluid moves throughout the lines and anti-lock componentry by diffusion. Still, it is NEVER dark when I flush it. I know you're glad you did it right before your session!

I also do my own oil changes for the same reasons. I don't like the "free" tire rotations either, because they consistently over-torque the lugs....such a simple thing to do correctly, and too many still manage to mess it up.

Have fun!

 

Tires, then brakes - Or brakes then tires - My 2 top priorities for my cars whether on the street or the track.

 

Thursday was a great day for a road trip…..

To WGI for 3 days of tire wearing fun and fun it was! Thursday evening was a check in time at the track to get things unload and having the car tech’ed and registered.

Dinner was at the restaurant at the Harbor Inn. This is a lovely place at the south end of Seneca Lake and the outdoor seating has a spectacular view of the lake and surrounding area.


A meal with a view

It is very convenient when coming into the village to stop here after driving 3 1/2 hrs, have a beer and a meal. Beers are all local brews which are all very good.

I met up with gbuff. After all of these years of corresponding with him here on NAM and hearing about his MINI motoring exploits,I have finally gotten to see him in action.

The impressive thing about gbuff out on the track with his MINI is the fact that this MINI, tooling around the track and embarrassing other want-a-be faster cars, is a stock Base Cooper. Well, at least on the twisty bits. With sticky A052s shoes gbuff is talented enough to pull speeds though corners others only wish they could do.

I tip my hat to you!

This was a learning trip for me. Friday was an open track day and I had signed up for Data Coaching. I had no idea what to expect, except that I have been told that this really the only way to improve lap times. A simple AIM data recorder was installed and off I went. Just do a bunch of consistent laps and come back in, I was told.

Ok, that isn’t too hard and it was fun; no different from what I have done in the past. Albert was definitely up to the task. The driver, well, not too bad. With the threat of rain/thunderstorms I wanted to get going on this early. 7 - 8 laps later I came in.

I am acquainted with the person doing the data coaching and he is a BMWCCA instructor. Nice guy. It took more time to download the data than it took him to find a turn for me to work on…. T7…. The Toe….The nemesis of all front wheel drive cars, and most anything else on the track but to a lesser extent. That uphill corkscrew that wants to shred that right front tire on a FWD car, even with a LSD. Ugh! I have tried everything. I have tried rim shots, ride the curb shots, go up half way in between shots, diamond the corner, roll the hands from the outside to the inside at the apex. I have worked on how far up the hill I can trail brake in order to maximize the car’s front camber and weight transfer to the front, to maximize front grip. I have that turn nailed down the best that can be done in a FWD car. There is nothing more to be gained there. So why that turn? What do you want me to change or do to gain time there?

You’re over braking, lets work on that.

How can that be? I am already braking as late as I dare and trail braking in order to make sure i don’t go off track. I’ve got this figured out.

The trail braking is killing your speed.

What?

Trail braking isn’t needed. Don’t change your braking, or braking point, just lift off the brake once you hit the compression. The compression will do what is needed to keep you on the track.

Oh…. That will work? So I am not working on the “turn”. I am working on braking into the turn?

Yes.

Well I guess I can try it and if I am too fast, there is a lot of room in that turn to “catch” the car if going too fast. There is a lot to think about to make this change from my current muscle memory, but i think I can do it. And Faith…

Let’s talk about T9.

How about T8? I hate that turn almost as much as the Toe.

You are entering T9 too far to the right. There is no camber out there. Put your left tire on the seam in the center of the track and roll your steering to the apex to stay on the camber. The camber disappears from right to left as you approach the NASCAR straight.

Ok, minor change. Check.

And do you know that, between turtles 2 and 3 in the Bus Stop, there is camber to the left of the center of the track, but it goes away to the right of the center of the track?

No, but I am usually about center. No change, just need to remember that.

And T6. No camber at the right side of the track at the turn in. Need to be almost center of the track.

Oh, oh, oh…. I know that one.

Roll your steering into the apex.

What about T8?

Go out and work on T7 and pay attention to the other turns we talked about.

Hmmmm. Ok

7 - 8 laps later…..

You were 2 seconds faster this session than the last.

What? Nooooo…. Really?

Yup. 0.4 seconds in T7 alone. 2:23s to 2:21s with 2 laps in the 2:21s, so it was real.

OMG it worked. And, yes, it felt good with no drama.

However, I will say that, without having a coach who knows how to read the data, I never would have gotten anything out of this.

I went out again, and, again, 2:21s.

I like it. Just doing lap gets boring after a while. Learning something new makes this special.

Also, being around others with the same interests, sharing stories and experiences (brake pads, a constant discussion) makes this worth while.

More to come….

 

It was a great weekend to be running hard at the track!

 

It turned out that by the end of that first day I was more exhausting than I ever remember it being and the first session of the second felt like I was dealing with a hangover. Ugh! Not as young as I used to be…

On the other hand Albert was chomping at the bit to get going. I am truly getting the hang of driving him. The 215 tires on 7.5” wide wheels works well for a car with so little camber. Front tire wear was acceptable, with minimal roll over onto the sidewalls. I run tire pressures a little high, 38 psi hot, to help with this. This seems to be a good compromise.

Car is read to go. I need to get my act in gear…

Second breakfast, and I am feeling much better and the rest of the day went really well. So well, that I started to feel fade in my brake pads. A sign of truly motoring around this track. The pads are the Carbotech XP12s, which I would have thought could stand the heat, but apparently not. I also needed to do a brake bleed in the afternoon of Friday. Got a bubble out of the left rear. What? I do not know where that came from, but the brake feel was improved.

There is an on going discussion around the garage as to what are the best brake pads and not so much. One can start a discussion in the last event of a season and pick it back up in the spring, with totally different people, and carry on from where you left off 6 months ago. Amazing! There are PFC, Pagid, Portorfield, Hawk, Carbotech, G-Loc and the list goes on. Everyone has their favorite and reasons for not liking others. I even knew a person with a Porsche GT3 RS (or RSR? Is that a thing?), that was blisteringly fast and used OEM pads from Advanced Auto. Just fine, he said. The bottom line is that you don’t know what the perfect pad is until you stumble across it. I have a new set of the XP12s waiting to be used. I can make do, but after those I’ll try something else. Oh yah, not everyone makes a race pad for a Gen 3 JCW….

But the discussion about brakes doesn’t end there. Brake fluid. It seems that BMW has upgraded their branded brake fluid. I would say this has become a track-worthy option. The dry boiling point is 509 deg. Not quite the 594 deg of the Motul, but not bad. While it is import to flush the brake system before each event, which will put some fresh fluid through the system, all of the old fluid may not be displaced. So wet boiling is a consideration too. The BMW stuff is at 347 deg. At about $10 a 12 oz bottle, it is an option.

True to form, gbuff put in 3 or was it 5 hrs of driving on the track in 2 days. And being in a stock Cooper (read: no camber) tires took a beating, much like those in an IMSA endurance race….


gbuff’s 205-50x15 tire stack

And, yes, the middle one is corded….

Camber, gbuff, camber….

I ended the day feeling really good about the 2 days and what I learned. However, an endurance racer I am not. So for me, the event was shortened to just 2 days. In all fairness, I had always planned to have a truncated 3rd day as I needed to be home early to meet up with friends I have not seen since before Covid. So taking the full day off was not much of a loss. Plus, when I woke the next morning I realized how much the last 2 days took out of me. It might not have ended as well as it did if I had tired lapping on day 3. A 2 hr nap once I got home reinforced the wisdom of my decision.

My apologies to gbuff. I thought I had taken a picture of our two black MINIs together in our garage bay, but, apparently not. I truly meant to, though. In total there were 4 MINIs at this event. For once the brand was very well represented.

At least I got 2 of the 4…


Albert looking fine and ready to go


A really nice Gen 3 JCW

Besides being out on the track and mingling with the people, there are always a number of interesting cars at these events. Not surprising given that this event drew over 130 car entries. Here are just a few.


C8 Corvette


The business end of a Corvette isn’t what it used to be, but still amazing


McLaren


Porsche (why not at a BMW event)


A proper looking track car


Holes in the wheel spokes? Not sure I’d want to clean those


Honda done right.


Mod’ed M4. Not what I would do.


The Art Car


A classic


Another McLaren


Mustang, the Boss 302


And Camaro SS


A sweet looking Alfa


911 business end


We have to eat. And that is just a half


Could that be why my wheels felt out of balance?


Hmmmm… More tire slag rub marks


Yellow Jackets feasting on bug kill


Wheel well liner destroyed by tire slag

I did try to take video with my iPhone, but it seemed to stop recording once the car started to move. I have no idea why. I was hopeful, but sadly, no.

Hope you enjoyed. I did.

 

Yes it was. Hope you had a good day biking…

 

Heck yeah we did! If you look closely, you can see the Clubman rear doors behind the Hyundai...

 

Haha, beautiful photos for a really nice event, almost 5 hrs of track time in my 2 days which explains the tires Full disclosure, I corded the other flipped tire I (or rather you, thanks again so much) put on for the last run so Anthony flipped two and replaced two after the event! Will respond to the other posts.....

 

Thanks for the kind words, Eddie, you had an excellent data coach in Greg, he's really into it and really knows his stuff. The fact that he found you two seconds in a lap that you're already doing very well at is pretty amazing. 2:21 in that car is one HELL of a lap, you should be proud We talked about T6 and T9 in those very terms i.e. don't go all the way track right to take advantage of that inside camber and the data bears that out. Same deal for T5 out of the Bus Stop, Anthony said he felt comfortable in his GT4 going 80mph through T5; one time he was behind me and clocked me at 87 and it's all due to that grip/camber on the inside of that turn. BTW he was turning 2:08-2:10 laps compared to my flying 2:31-2:33s which makes your 2:21-2:23s even more remarkable. In T7 there isn't much I can do in there, just brake as little as as late as possible and straighten the wheel ASAP and I'm still sliding into the cutout All in all a very enjoyable event, even the giant crack I received in my windshield (windscreen?) didn't dampen the vibe

 

Say WHAT!?

Any idea how?

T7 - when I was behind you through that turn, you were leaving black rubber lines on your track out. That MINI of yours was clearly giving all it was worth and then some maybe. I actually enjoy driving behind someone like you to see how other really good drivers take the turns there. It is a great way to learn. And, I don’t mind your speed on the straights. I’m there to learn, have fun and not to try to win any races. Next time we can work out hand signals for when I wish to pass and for you too.

Oh, when you finally get Anthony to install the camber plates, have him change the shocks, even if it is with the OEMs.

Those are remarkable times for Anthony. WOW

And thank you for your kind words.

 

I am a fan of battery powered whatever. Well, not Tesla, but if there is an eMiata, I would highly consider it.

I also am mindful of the size of things and being able to pack them into a MINI. One thing I have wanted is a decent tire inflator. The Dewalt one is just too much. I don’t need all of its do-dads. Every once in a while the Amazon algorithm throws me a worthwhile recommendation. One day up popped this ( ):


It really works!

It is automatic with inflating a tire. Set a pressure and let it rip. I finally got to really try it out at this last event. It pumps quickly and has no trouble starting up when starting against the pressure of an almost full tire. The pressure gauge is acceptably accurate. I give it

My cordless shop already revolves around the 20v Dewalt battery, so this was a no brainer. Great to find it works really well.

 

Haha, T7 is just a killer, it just sucks the speed right out of the car No idea on the crack, it wasn't there and then it was....that glass already had 4 or 5 small chips/stars in it that I repaired myself but this one was too big. Took it to Safelite y-day, sat there for an hour or so and done, they even salvaged the inspection and reg stickers

 

Out west (Utah winter) I witnessed spontaneous windshield cracking…

An electric I could get excited about…

 

Wow, cool clip, they sound so weird but they are FAST!

There was a small chip at the bottom of the crack and it radiated up from there, I'm sure it happened on track. It was easy to see from inside the car.

 

We are just past spider season around here. Late August there are spider webs galore and they stand out beautifully with dew early on a cool morning. I am in awe of their engineering skills and to be able to place support webbing 6 or more feet away from the actual web. Sometimes I come across a web that is intriguing in its design and/or placement.


Blocking my car

Or a spider I have never seen before…


A spider straight out of a graphic novel

These were taken with my iPhone 12 MINI…

Albert is entering into quiet season, maybe a little earlier than originally thought. I had thoughts of getting to WGI and LRP for one more event, each. But, between plumbing that has developed a bad incontinence problem and our dog of many years needing surgery I have been otherwise occupied.

The dog’s surgery went just fine; thank you for thinking to ask. Over a year or more he developed an extra pad on one of his feet that needed to removed. Nothing to worry about; just needs time to heal.

The plumbing should go equally as well. It is coming up to be done, but will require the house to be shut down for a day.

 

We have a similar orbweaver in our barn right now. Beautiful spiders! They're related to the bigger orb weavers in the genus Argiope. The one blocking your car might be an Argiope, can't tell. The darker one looks to me like a spiny orbweaver of the genus Gasteracantha or Micrathena. We've got a beautiful spined Micrathena hanging out above our feed bins in the barn.

Cool spiders - thanks for sharing!

 

Wow! That is pretty neat. Thanks.

Ok, a couple more…

For a while I called this one a “tent” or “mat” spider because that is what the web looks like to me. I have since looked it up …



Wolf spider?



Wolf spider?

And because we have had almost nonstop rain…


Fun Guy

 

Yep, looks like a wolf to me. I was snorkeling near Shelburne Falls in Western MA once and I saw a wolf spider with it's web underwater! It had a big air bubble trapped in the funnel part of the web and it was completely under the surface of the water! Hunting tadpoles or other waterbugs maybe? Baby fish? It was definitely memorable as that was probably 15 years ago!