Took my 78 Austin to a car show today. Started up just fine. Ran great. After the show, started on the first try and ran great all the way home. Went to dinner and then took a friend for a ride. After I dropped my friend off at his car, mine wouldn't start.

All I get when I turn the key is a whirrrrrrrrrrr. I had a friend push it the block back to my garage which is in a basement of my loft building. After rolling down the ramp, I was able to pop-start it. Once it started it was just fine.

Is it the starter?

 

Hmm.. sounds like the starter isn't engaging. It happens... and it's annoying. I was gonna say if you can push start it and go, it's probably the starter, but you already tried that. lol So That would DEFINITELY be my first place to check.

This is most common when this happens is the starter solenoid that kicks the little gear up to engage. Also, it can be a problem with the battery. I've seen batteries go bad and they will make the thing spin and support the lights and stuff in the cab to make you think it's all good, but it's really not holding the charge correctly. Try connecting a new battery before you do ANYTHING. this could be your easiest fix (Happened on my brother's Ford Bronco years ago). The last and scariest option... if it's neither of the above, you could be missing or have some won teeth on the flywheel. This would give a low spot and the state wouldn't engage. BUT there's good news. If you drove it home afterward, this would have moved the flywheel, and the chances of you finding that exact worn spot would be nearly impossible. So if it's still happening after a bump start... you're more than likely looking at one of the simpler fixes.

Either way, good luck diagnosing, but I'd try a fresh or otherwise proven to work battery before digging around under the car.

Hope it helps. It's always nice to help out a fellow Mini owner, especially one from STL like me.

 

If the starter is spinning but not engaging I doubt you have an eletrical problem. More likely a worn or balky starter. Mine fails to engage probably 1/5 of the time but will catch on the next spin. One of these days I'll have to pull to clean or replace.

try to lay your hands on MiniWorld March 2009

pages 64 - 66

Starter Motors ... it shows how to remove, clean and replace the starter

a balky starter is often caused by the mechanism that allows the gear to slide back and forth to engage the flywheel getting gummed up (BENDIX). It is easy to pull the starter and clean any gunk out of the mechanism. At this time you'll also check for worn teeth on either the starter or the fly wheel.

If the problem is a worn spot on the flywheel you can determine that next time the started spins w/out engaging by pulling the starter and using a big screw driver to turn the flyeheel a bit ... away from the suspect spot ... to a "good spot" for the starter to engage. We just resolved this situation on our "zoo train" which has a small 4 cyl engine. Occasionally, but with increasing frequency the starter would spin, we heard grinding and we determined for sure we had a bad flywheel (bad spot growing) but had to limp for a few days until the new part could be fabricated {60's vintage zoo train is harder to get parts for than a Mini!}. Replacing the flywheel in this situation is a much larger task then replacing the starter (pull engine for access?!?). Note, IME when the problem was the flywheel, there was grinding as the starter tried to engage (Bendix shot the gear forward) but it couldn't 'catch' because the flywheel teeth were worn. The first try to fix this is replacing the gear on the starter which we'd done several times on the train, the extra starter bite was enuf to get a grab ... but eventually the flywheel is just worn TOO far. {10 to 25 starts a day for 10 years since the last change!)

 

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All viable options too. But I'd try just connecting a battery out of another car before trying to take out the starter. It may be YOUR fix. Trust me.. it happens. I've seen it twice.

Gummed up throw outs are pretty common too, especially in a starter that's open to the elements.

 

Can I just connect it with jumper cables or do I have to disconnect it from the other car and disconnect the mini battery also?

 

Well you could disconnect the Mini's battery and connect it via alligator clips on the jumpers. Make CERTAIN that the system you're using is the same type of system in the mini. I don't know what year or spec your mini is, but if the ground is the negative (black) then it'll be fine. I would think you could just clip the jumper cables on it, but I'm not sure what the heck was wrong with the battery we had. Somehow the charge polarity had reversed and then went back to normal... it was the weirdest thing I've ever seen. So I'd disconnect the battery and then attach jumper cables to another battery in a car that you know is good.

This may not be your fix, but I'm glad it was the first thing I tried in the bronco because it saved us hours of headaches.

 

what MM refers to is the fact that the very early Min was a "positive earth" electrical system....something never heard of today. Now ALL vehicles are "negative earth" and use the body/chassis as "ground" Your 78 is negative earth so no worries.....

If there is any doubt in your mind about battery strength being the issue then by all means hook up another battery with jumpers and try it ...

BUT

A sticky Bendix is gonna be occasional dot dot dot. SOOOOO, what does one good test tell you? ZILTCH. Like I said, I'm 95% sure what my problem is...but I know I can bump start if I must and the BEST fix is a new starter but once I wash some lazy out I will follow the MW guide and disassemble and clean the Bendix on my starter as it is "...very straightforward, anyone can do it".

Beyond that there IS the issue that a re-built Hi Compression engine can just be to TOO TIGHT for a stock starter to turn over under certain continions (cold engines are sticky) .... The path then is to replace the starter with a new (***'nze) that fits but delivers much more "umph" to the crank. I SUSPECT that may be where I need to go ...

 

Hi..Your mini is neg earth only mk1-2 1959-69 were pos eatrh so I would chech all your earth connections (boot, and engine bay) also check starter solinoid This is attached to (when looking into bay) left hanh wing by clutch housing ..............

 

All true. If it doesn't work with this new battery (Pretty likely it's NOT the problem) I would check the ground, make sure the solenoid is good, and also, if it's easy enough, just pop the thing out and take a look at it. Even if you can't fix it and have to get a new one, you'll have it out, and the experience of tinkering with it.

Oh.. and yeah. If you've got a high compression engine, you may need a high torque starter. I know NOTHING about your application, so I am throwing out anything that comes to mind.

 

Hey Mike, I had a starting issue last winter. I could pop start it, but I couldn't even get it jump started with another car or charger. So I ordered and installed a new starter thinking that was the issue. It wasn't. The battery was so dead that it was causing all my problems (and the battery was only a year old). These tiny batteries don't have much spare power, so even a minor discharge causes all sorts of wacky problems. So check your battery first. I now keep my car on a Battery Tender Plus. No problems since, even when I don't drive it much.

If you end up coming to the conclusion it is the starter, let me know. I still have my old one that I think is probably still good that you could try first.

 

I've often wondered if some of these questions are plants from editors of certain mag's cuz the coincidence 'twixt the question and an article appearing is TOO TOO much.

To wit: Summer 2009 MiniWorld just hit my mailbox and page 70:

The Solenoid. If you turn on the ignition and only hear a click but your battery is in good condition, the problem probably lies with poor connections at the battery or solenoid.

Instructions to remove clean and refit and information for replacement ...

++++++++++++++++++++++++++

When I first got OC I too had serious starting issues. Sometimes I'd turn the key and ZOOM it fired immediately. Sometimes I'd turn the key and NOTHING ... absolutely nothing. But if I'd then jump ZOOM. First I tried a new battery. The battery when I bought OC was "brand new" ... yes it was, it was also a piece of junk. The least expensive battery the chain sold and they asked if I'd gotten 10 starts out of it . So I bought an OPTIMA .... and continued to have problems

It took a little while but I eventually found that the grounding strap from the block to the chassis, which connected at the chassis end via the bottom of the engine stabilizer bar over the clutch bell was loose because that bolt with the nut at the bottom & hidden was loose. Sometimes the ground strap would lay and make good contact .... sometimes it would NOT make good contact. Vibration would change this state. Since this bolt / ground, has been made firm and tight the starter turns everytime I turn the key. Doesn't always engage .... but it spins. {btw, jumping the car provided a grounded circuit via the donor!}

+++++++++

Tiny battery....

There really is no reason for you to run a 'tiny battery'. Battery size consists of two parts in the 'group' rating. One issue is physical size and the other is 'cranking amps' or UGH power, which also equaly lasting power when running stuff off the bat' alone (campers and boomers). When you replace a battery you need at least the minimum UGH you vehicle calls for, as well as something that physically fits. Many times, folks add things to their car and decide they want more UGH and buy more cranking amps as long as it physically fits. Some folks go so far as to install multiple batteries (those loud boomer guys in the next lane....). I can't comment on any other but the battery compartment in my 79 is actually pretty damn big by today's standards and with those physical dimensions in hand I went shopping for an OPTIMA red top, the biggest UGH they had. I've enuf amps available to start a MACK truck .... but the car will only draw what it needs to draw .... You will NOT burn out your electrical system if you install a BIG battery....well, I haven't in the 4 years I've run this way. You will have cranking power to spare....especially useful in an engine with higher compression like a Mini.

When the car farts and I'm having trouble starting, I can crank it for 20 minutes if I needed to .... it will grind and grind away.

BUY A POWER BLOCK and eliminate THAT issue.

(wanna see a 'small battery'? look at the physical size of the factory battery in a first generation Miata. It is a motorcycle battery by size. Yet, mine was pulling fine at 5 years and I only replaced it because I always replace at 5 years....)

 

I actually installed a battery cut-off because I was leaking power so much. I shut it off when I get out of the car so the battery can't discharge at all. I don't think it's the battery ato all so I might take you up on the starter.

Are you going to be at Gateway this weekend?

 

I'm no plant but I should pick up the mag. Also, it's not really a click its more like a grrrrrrwhirrrr sound. I'll record it later and post a link.

 

Gaahhh. You guys are going to Gateway this weekend and I'm stuck in Texas. I want to go SO BAD. My buddy and I will be going to one of the "Midnight Madness" events in July. He may actually be stunt riding on his motorcycle if the Street Fighters decide to let him ride with them.

 

I am. Not sure about Brian. It's for the St. Louis BMWCCA DE.

 

Ugh. I wish this tiny little hole in the middle of the plains in West Texas had ANYTHING like that.

 

I'll be there Sunday.

 

Here's a recording of what my car sounds like. The more I listen the more I think it's got to be the starter. I haven't had time to look under the bonnet yet and am really not sure what I would look for.

 

The starter is spinning but the engine doesn't crank so its a mechanical problem not electrical.

Pull the starter off and see if either one of the gears looks bad. It could be out of alignment and ate the teeth right off the gears or maybe the starter gear is hitting the side of the flywheel gear before they mesh. You could try lightly bumping it with a rubber mallet near where the mount is.

I would also suggest putting the car in gear and pushing it so that the flywheel rotates a little so you are on a different spot in the flywheel gear.

I would also put that battery on a charger just so you don't burn out your alternator when it actually does start.

 

99.999% sure that's the starter .... you're spinning with no engagement.

When I had a flywheel problem I'd heard grinding ... the Bendix would shoot the gear but it wouldn't 'catch' but you'd hear a grinding cuz they did touch.

I don't hear any contact so I suspect your gear isn't moving. First option is to clean the Bendix as described in the first MW article I referenced.

The starter is that big can like thing low on the left side leaning over the engine. a BIG eletric cable connected to it. It lay horizontal and is bolted to the flywheel housing. You may find it easier to get to if you remove the grill. On my pic, the black thing under the dizzy.

hard to get to....you may want to remove the grill

unless you have the easy access modification:


****added

BTW, if you don't feel comfortable digging into the starter yourself, but DO feel confident enuf to take it off (undo the electric cable and two more bolts....) look in your Yellow Pages under Automobine Electric Service and I'll bet you find a few listings for places that re-build among other things....starters. Most of their work target is rewinding the electric motor but they can usually deal with the mechanical end as well.

That's the low cost option .... not as low as DIY tho.

FAR END ....

If you do decide you must buy a new starter....there are places that have starters from much newer (imported) cars converted for the classic's mount. They provide significantly more UGH ... were I to replace my starter I'd go this way, NO question. In fact, I planned to do this until I saw the MW article about easy cleaning so being the tightflint retiree (my wife makes me be) . . .

 

Pull the starter. Inspect the ring gear. If really bad, then the flywheel must come out to replace the ring gear.

Try cleaning the Bendix gear on the end of the starter with some Brakleen or carb cleaner. DO NOT OIL. Some graphite might help. You can test its engagement on the floor with a batt/jumpers. If bad, replace bendix. It doesn't require a whole new starter necessarily.

 

ummmm ... isn't that what I've already said?

Thanks for confirming MM ...

 

LOL. I think it's a summary of what both you and I have already stated.

I'm guessing the Bendix is the issue here. It sounds like more than enough juice is getting to it, but still. If the solenoid isn't popping it up... who knows.

Either way... I'd have already pulled the thing by now. haha

 

True, but

• no one suggested bench testing before re-installation (saves time)
• many novices may tend to think that some lubrication may be required. Anything of the sort on the Bendix will gum it up in the future.

There's no pissing match here. Just trying to help a fellow Mini owner out. We each have our own ways of working and each of us has varying years of Mini experience, (from 0 to 35+). We can all learn from each other.

 

Oh I'm not trying to say your opinion and suggestion was in any way less valid. You're right. And honestly... I'd probably bench test it BEFORE I tied anything too just to make sure something IS wrong with it before I tear it all up. Just make sure that sucker is clamped down somehow. High torque, high speed electric motors tend to dance around if they aren't secured. haha