So I feel like my MINI just broke up with me... I have some major trust issues that arose from my ride in to work this morning.

I left the house this morning around 7:15am from Reston to Herndon, VA. My commute is only 2.4 miles long. As those of you in NoVA know, they didn't salt or sand the roads this morning. My DSC kicked in a few times on Sunrise Valley Dr (mostly on starts from a complete stop), but I kept it well below the 35 mph speed limit.

As I approach Centreville Rd on Sunrise Valley headed Westbound, the truck in front of me (far in front of me, I wasn't remotely tailgating) just stops...STOPS!... in the middle of the road. There is a mobile sign that says "watch for pedestrians" across from the Shopper's Food grocery store, and a bunch of pedestrians waiting at the bus stop. Not sure what this guy thought (they were trying to cross??) but he just stopped in the middle of the road.

I saw it and eased on my brakes since I had plenty of time. My brakes started going "crunch crunch crunch" loudly (someone at work told me I had an accumulation of snow/ice on my brakes??). I pressed harder, and wasn't stopping! DSC didn't kick in! I hit my horn, but the guy wasn't moving! I turned the wheel slightly to try to go around, and started slowly spinning... I nearly did a 360 in the middle of the road.

Once I came to a complete stop, I slowly eased it into first and started off again - no problems. Arrived at work very shaken and in the novel position of asking my SUV-driving boyfriend to pick me up from work. I'm so embarrassed! And now afraid to drive my always-steady MINI!

What happened??

 

That crunch crunch crunch is the anti-lock brakes. DCS isn't going to kick in on braking or if you are going straight. You were on ice and nothing is going to help you then, short of chains.

 

+1 It doesn't matter what type of vehicle you have. If it is on ice, you have little control. I used to have a 4dr Chevy Tahoe, lifted w/ BFG Mud Terrain tires and could drive around like a sunny Spring afternoon in the Winter, but once I hit ice, its all up to Physics.

At least you didn't get hurt and neither did your MINI.

 

QFT

On ice, even treaded vehicles need to be careful. So no Mini betrayal here. Ice = no traction.

 

Also it depends on what tires you have. I know with my performance tires if there is a dusting on the ground I will slip and slide like crazy. Though I've heard everyone with all season or winter tires have no problems at all.

 

Glad to hear you and baby are okay

 

That's the thing that always scared me about the SUVs and 4x4s flying by at all speeds: you might be able to get the traction to get going, but it doesn't mean anything when it comes time to stop!

 

I concur with all of the above. DSC was not part of the issue... DSC is designed to straighten out your car when you are sliding away from your intended path (when you're turning). It does not help in a straight line - that's what anti-lock brakes are for!

Also, the shuddering was perfectly normal - that's the anti-lock brakes doing their thing. And the main reason that will happen is when your tires are slipping...

...and if it does indeed turn out that you were on ice, then there was very little that ABS, DSC or any other technology can really do - your traction is so limited in those conditions, unless you have spiked or studded tires.

So don't blame your MINI - in fact, the exact same situation almost definitely would have been MORE scary in your boyfriend's SUV, because it no doubt is much heavier... heavier vehicles take longer to stop and are much less stable in unbalanced, out of control situations.

 

If the MINI is your only car, you might want to get another set of wheels for some winter specific tires like Bidgestone Blizzaks. The modern winter tires are amazingly effective.
To be honest though, I have to disagree about weight.. light weight vehicles are at a disadvantage in typical mid-Atlantic winter weather.
A heavier vehicle is better because the weight puts more pressure on the tires and gives them a better chance to cut through the snow or slush and contact the pavement underneath. A light vehicle is more likely to slide like a snowboard across the top of the snow. This is also one of the reasons that a typical front motor, front wheel drive car is at an advantage over a similarly sized front motor, rear wheel drive car in the snow ...because the weight of the motor /transmission / differential are all on top of the front tires that propel, steer and provide most of the stopping power for the car.
A lightweight car with relatively wide tires is great fun on dry pavement, but they are at a disadvantage to a heavier vehicle in most winter conditions. But ice of course, especially the wet ice that occurs in temps hovering around the freezing point, can sometimes be nearly impossible in any vehicle.

 

Tires make all the difference. You have good tread?

How did the truck stop so easily on the same ice?

 

the moral to this story is when you engage the ABS in winter driving, get off the brakes! Put it in a lower gear and let the engine slow you down....or, feather the brakes if you can. I've been in this same situation and if the tires are slipping, nothing further up the food chain matters, including turning the steering wheel.

I did $3500 damage to a $5000 car sliding on the ice way back in high school. Nothing is worse than sitting in the driver's seat with no control...you're just along for the ride and as the curb (or truck in your case) in front of you gets closer, you know it's going to hurt.

 

Nothing beats driving/looking well ahead of your vehicle, always anticipate what might happen next.

I fell victim to a similar event but it was in the rain with my Truck (No ABS, DSC, CBC, you get the idea) and trailer hauling my race car. A lady decided to stop at a green light trying to decide if she should turn right.......initial response was to jump on the brakes, this helped a bit but started a jackknife, off the brakes, tap the gas, get straight, and thank god (she must have looked in her rearview) she decided to go on through the light, I made the right turn, very shaken.

The lesson I learned was to always expect the unexpected, always drive up ahead of you, and not to jump on the brakes so hard, at the first sign of trouble, off the gas and add brakes as needed. I know, easier said than done but it works.

Glad you and the MINI are fine, as they say "What doesn't kill you makes you stronger"

Cheers,

Mike


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At the risk of being percieved as a contrarian, I've got to disagree with this too. Safety is too important to not speak up here. If your ABS is cycling, it is doing its job. The best response from the driver is usually to stay on the brake pedal and let the ABS do its job for as long as necessary. In the meantime the driver should focus on steering, while the ABS brakes in a way that allows the car to stop without locking up the brakes, thus allowing the driver to continue to steer the vehicle.

 

In my case with the truck,no ABS,but I agree that with ABS, on the brakes and steer where (if you can) you want to go

Of course, its better not to get into that situation to begin with

 

I had my ABS kick in once on the way home last night. On an icy bridge, as it started to slope don I started to slide, slowly added brake pressure, at one point ABS kicked in, I stayed on the (pulsing) brakes and was back in control as the far in front of me began to go sideways down the last 1/4 of the bridge

 

+1

Do not pump the brakes that counteracts what your ABS is doing (in a faster and more efficient manner). You should not let off the brakes when your ABS is reacting. Keep your foot planted until you are stopped and concentrate on your steering.

 

I guess the road was snow covered then and you have all-season tires.

All-season tires in my opinion are a trade off between dry and not so dry traction. Most all-season tires don't perform well in either condition, though some of the newer tires are getting better. I know that we don't get a lot of snow around here, but you just can't beat winter tires when it comes to snow traction.

If you don't want to get another set of tires, then I recommend you find a snow covered parking lot, that is clear of cars and other obstructions, and practice. Get a feel for what your car can and can't do in the snow. Slam on the brakes. Try turning at different speeds. Make it slide and such.

That way the next time your out on snowy roads, you'll feel more comfortable.

 

Just watch out for the cops, they don't understand the idea of learning and becoming a better driver

 

on ice? you're nuts! ABS produces longer stopping distances compared to threshold braking. On ice, none of this matters though.

I've been in one accident caused by ABS....had I not floored the brakes and swerved instead, I would have missed the truck that stopped all of the sudden in front of me. Granted, ABS has improved greatly over the years, but even as recent as my '03 WRX with Bosch ABS, it was a liability on less than perfect dry roads (there was a recall about this car in fact...the ABS controller was too sensitive).

 

Nothing beats real winter tires. All seasons are compromises. In ice your only decent choices are hydrophilic tires, studs, or chains. And even they have serious limits. (I have studded snow tires for my bicycle by the way, they rock)

The 'limit' posted is for ideal conditions. Doing only 20 in a 35 zone in snow and ice can be legally 'too fast for conditions' and ticketable. Not likely I admit since they don't even write tickets for runnin' red lights around here. The posted limit or anything remotely in the neighberhood can of course be outright lunacy in snow. It sounds like the thread starter knew this and acted accordingly.

I practically stopped on Fort Hunt road one night a few months ago as several deer crossed just ahead of me. As I slowed I put on my hazards and held my arm straight up (top down) as a warning to slow. A car with four kids did a 'burn out' around me blowing the horn and screaming obscenities at me for holding things up. There are reasons people stop in the middle of the road. They're usually good reasons. I admit for a fraction of a second I really really wished they'd have hit one of the deer. I felt guilty about thinging that but I would rather they hit a deer to learn a lesson than some mini van with a mom and kids in it.

Re ABS and 'threshold' braking. I'd like to see a test on that as ABS is designed to basically perform threshold braking. I'd think it would take Michael Schumacher to out 'threshold brake' an ABS system. Especially in variable conditions like snow & ice.

I'd agree that the first time you feel ABS can be confusing. In my case I hit the brakes hard in my Dad's SAAB 9000 many many years ago and it felt in the pedal and sounded like sliding on loose gravel. It was clean dry pavement and it was the ABS doing it's thing. Of course I'd take it as a sign I'm going to da** fast if I trigger the ABS in most cases. If I trigger the ABS then I'm probably not leaving the margin I should.

My Dad took me out quite a few times to a large empty parking lot to learn about driving in the snow when I was a young man.

 

you'd be wrong. ABS wasn't invented because it's inherently better, but because it's safer for 99% of the drivers out there. Panic braking is where it comes in handy....press the pedal and forget. Threshold braking in a straight line on dry pavement isn't hard.....try it sometime....push just hard enough to get teh ABS to come on and let off...figuring out where the edge is. with my Subaru running Brembo's, this was very easy to do, even with 245 width Goodyear F1's. You'll learn how to drive better by doing so.

 

I knew this post was coming. There is simply no way a human can as smoothly, consistently and effectively modulate the brakes as the ABS. A good driver recognizes his/her and human limitations. Although you didn't mention it, the "wedge" theory you espoused before (perhaps the only time ABS could be detrimental --- if you could predict the time, place and size of the wedge ---- is clearly not relevant in this case.

 

ya think??? Got some data to show how identical cars with/without ABS performed in braking tests?

I never said I don't want ABS. I said it personally caused an accident...granted, it was a first-gen ABS car from Honda that I'm referring to. As said, our '03 WRX had ABS related braking problems. On loose surfaces or rough pavement, the ABS would kick in, lowering your braking ability. Yes, on dirt, you want lockup....it aids in stopping quickly. No, on rough pavement, you don't want the ABS cycling. It's downright scary how little brake power you have when the ABS does this.

Actually....forget this. Pointless NAM argument. The OP slid on ice. Only two solutions (which were previously stated): 1) better speed control and 2) tires that have grip on ice. No amount of e-nannies will cure these two issues

 

Then why are you telling a driver who describes her ABS cycling as her brakes going "crunch crunch crunch," to let off the brake pedal and attempt to engage in some sort of expert level brake pedal modulation, instead of staying on the pedal and steering? From her description of the incident, she sounds like a typical driver.. .which makes ABS her best shot at avoiding an accident.
And your advice that she should be downshifting as a means to suddenly slow on a very slick surface is also questionable.

 

I can't be wrong because I said "I'd think"! So I'm right about that being what I think, even if my guess about the fact is wrong. Prove to me that's not what I think!

I also was thinking more in lines of the 'variable conditions' part of it since the thread started about snow. Say in conditions where you have widely varied grip levels that are difficult to anticipate, slick spots, icey spots etc. In any case we're just saying what we think until someone cites a good test. No Mythbuster pseudo crackpot science but real testing. (love the show anyway, they have serious fun)

I also think that for 90+ % of the driving public that doesn't know the first thing about cars that ABS will serve them well. I have done a few driving schools and similar scenarios that involved interesting braking drills both in my MINI and in pre ABS cars, including some 60's vintage Truimphs and a Formula V. I know what threshold braking is and agree it's not hard in nominal cirumstnaces. But what about the vast majority of the driving public who've no idea what threshold braking even is. From these and other experiences I personally think that the majority of drivers with average skills (close to none in other words) will benefit best from slamming down a ABS controlled pedal till the car stops.

I'd prefer the fellow behind me with the seat belt hanging out the door bouncing & making sparks who has a 25 psi variation in pressure from tire to bald mismatched tire have the ABS. My confidence in the average driving skill of the average joe is not high.

Had a Subaru too. A 78 DL. You wouldn't believe the pressures it took experimenting one day to make it handle neutral. Probably the only 78 Subie that ever wore COMP T/A's.