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I had heard that this could happen. I had not heard of it actually happening till now. I check mine, but I am not sure I would see cracks. Still, for me to get 45 days in is about 4 to 5 years...
GBuff - this can happen with wheel bolts and studs, too. If the wheels are broken, then I would assume the bolts/studs need replacing too.
I have seen broken stud fatigue. I helped a guy replace a broken stud. I was able to count the crack cycles on it... 11... one for each time he had bolted the wheel on, per his recollection. So, I would look at the cycle life of the studs/bolts as being the number of times they are loosed and tightened. Sorry I don’t have a good cycle life number for the studs/bolts, though. Just keep an eye on them. If one breaks then they all should all be replaced. I was at a GVC event at WGI where a guy replaced just the one broken stud on his new M5. The next time out, they all broke on that wheel he had only replaced the one on and he went off while going around the outer loop, hit the guardrail and rolled the car... I think there is a lesson here, somewhere...
Eddie/VV, I've been buying new bolts regularly in the hopes that they'll help keep the LF attached to the car and I've been back and forth on studs for years now. I've stayed with the bolts simply because I've never seen a bolt fail, while I've seen plenty of studs do so. And if it happens at the track you're gonna need heat to get it out if Red Loctite was used, easy-outs, etc.....too much grief. I've read too many horror stories about people hearing/feeling popping noises, and the next thing you know, the wheel is off of the car. Too many hard surfaces to hit at tracks like the Glen, and if god forbid the car should dig in and flip/roll as at your GVC event? No thanks.
Eddie/VV, I've been buying new bolts regularly in the hopes that they'll help keep the LF attached to the car and I've been back and forth on studs for years now. I've stayed with the bolts simply because I've never seen a bolt fail, while I've seen plenty of studs do so. And if it happens at the track you're gonna need heat to get it out if Red Loctite was used, easy-outs, etc.....too much grief. I've read too many horror stories about people hearing/feeling popping noises, and the next thing you know, the wheel is off of the car. Too many hard surfaces to hit at tracks like the Glen, and if god forbid the car should dig in and flip/roll as at your GVC event? No thanks.
I am not sure I would jump and throw away all studs. In my former life we dealt with studs and bolts; lots of them. Some were custom others were bought by the box and certified to a spec. Problems arose when some unscrupulous manufacturers flooded the market with knock-offs that were “certified” but were not. They were cheap... And there were problems a-plenty. You get what you pay for.
I bought studs from Turner in the hopes that what they say is true. They have their own spec and they use these studs on their race cars. I paid a lot more for them than what I could have if I was going cheap. And, boy are they nice for changing wheels...
A problem that I see all over the place in the paddock or garage at the beginning of a track day is how may people don’t know how to use a torque wrench. The method of quickly leaning on the wrench, getting it to click and then repeating that several times is wrong. That is over tightening the nut or bolt. That, over time, will damage the bolt or stud. The torque setting needs to be slowly approached with a steady increase in force on the torque wrench and immediately stopped as soon as the wrench clicks. That is it...
Another problem I see during a track day is people retorquing the wheels between sessions. Maybe this is ok after it has had an hour or so to cool, but if it warm to the the touch, it is not a good idea. When the stud or bolt is hot, it expands and it will loose preload. If it is retorqued when it is hot or even overly warm, those bolts or studs will be way over loaded when they cool. If I ever check the wheel nut torque when they are warm, I will do it with the torque wrench set 10 ft-lbs low. At this point I am just looking for whether something has come loose. A slightly lower torque setting will find that.
Another problem is the torque requirement, especially on BMWs. Not sure why they run torque setting so high. The requirement for the R56 with the 14mm bolts is 102 ft-lbs. The wheels I just bought came with instructions that said 90 ft-lbs max. A higher than necessary torque setting will damage wheels and studs. I could only guess why BMW is so high...
I set my torque before the first session, obviously, and then will only re-torque right before going out for the next one, and repeat that throughout the day. That gives the car time enough to cool off. I use 91 ft-lbs.
Hey, VV — Remember I was trying to figure out where the pits were in the 1960s when I was at WGI for the F1 races? They were after what is now turn 1. See map and photo:
USGP atWatkins Glen 1962 Watkins Glen in the 1960s
That is a great picture. Yes, early WGI was quite a bit different from what it is today... I wonder how many times the movie camera equipment needed to be quickly yanked out of the way when a car lost its brakes going into what is now T1. Got to love the run off area at the turns and the woman standing at the apex of what is now T2.
Last edited by Eddie07S; 09-11-2020 at 09:56 AM.
Reason: Clarification
Awesome shot gkp! As Eddie said, has just a slight resemblance to today's layout. Of the banners I can read, Kendall is still in business, as is Dunlop Tires. Pan Am long gone, of course. From the color in the leaves, I would guess that race was run in late September.
And as far as Diana Rigg being off topic, in my book, she's always ON topic! 😁 Something tells me @gbuff1 would agree with that sentiment.
I believe the old T8, T1, T2, T3 are the same today as T1 - T4. The old T4 is the outer loop (T5) today. Of course the front straight is new and that Big Bend is gone and we now have T10 and T11 in that area. I am not sure if today’s T5 has been brought further around to make the NASCAR loop. The current maps showsit to be the same:
Awesome shot gkp! As Eddie said, has just a slight resemblance to today's layout. Of the banners I can read, Kendall is still in business, as is Dunlop Tires. Pan Am long gone, of course. From the color in the leaves, I would guess that race was run in late September.
And as far as Diana Rigg being off topic, in my book, she's always ON topic! 😁 Something tells me @gbuff1 would agree with that sentiment.
Boy, that's vintage WGI--what a great shot gkp! Wonder if Smalley's Garage was there by then; you could always count on seeing some cool cars being worked on there. As for today I really miss the museum/library--loved going in there at lunch and just looking through books with photos like this one
That is a great picture. Yes, early WGI was quite a bit different from what it is today... I wonder how many times the movie camera equipment needed to be quickly yanked out of the way when a car lost its brakes going into what is now T1. Got to love the run off area at the turns and the woman standing at the apex of what is now T2.
That reminds me of Mosport--even today there is simply a low concrete wall separating pit lane from the front straight; when we're up there for track days you can lean right over that thing and there you are! And usually at the beginning of the day that wall is lined with people--drivers, family members, crew members (if you have lotsa $$$) etc. They think nothing of it--different mindset up there. With all that has changed up at that track, that has not!
I am not sure I would jump and throw away all studs. In my former life we dealt with studs and bolts; lots of them. Some were custom others were bought by the box and certified to a spec. Problems arose when some unscrupulous manufacturers flooded the market with knock-offs that were “certified” but were not. They were cheap... And there were problems a-plenty. You get what you pay for.
I bought studs from Turner in the hopes that what they say is true. They have their own spec and they use these studs on their race cars. I paid a lot more for them than what I could have if I was going cheap. And, boy are they nice for changing wheels...
A problem that I see all over the place in the paddock or garage at the beginning of a track day is how may people don’t know how to use a torque wrench. The method of quickly leaning on the wrench, getting it to click and then repeating that several times is wrong. That is over tightening the nut or bolt. That, over time, will damage the bolt or stud. The torque setting needs to be slowly approached with a steady increase in force on the torque wrench and immediately stopped as soon as the wrench clicks. That is it...
Another problem I see during a track day is people retorquing the wheels between sessions. Maybe this is ok after it has had an hour or so to cool, but if it warm to the the touch, it is not a good idea. When the stud or bolt is hot, it expands and it will loose preload. If it is retorqued when it is hot or even overly warm, those bolts or studs will be way over loaded when they cool. If I ever check the wheel nut torque when they are warm, I will do it with the torque wrench set 10 ft-lbs low. At this point I am just looking for whether something has come loose. A slightly lower torque setting will find that.
Another problem is the torque requirement, especially on BMWs. Not sure why they run torque setting so high. The requirement for the R56 with the 14mm bolts is 102 ft-lbs. The wheels I just bought came with instructions that said 90 ft-lbs max. A higher than necessary torque setting will damage wheels and studs. I could only guess why BMW is so high...
All of this is true and very well-said, Eddie, at least in my experience (which I have in spades in lieu of talent but that's another thread )......you'd be hard-pressed to find any race team, be it pro or amateur, that does NOT use studs--it's simply SOP for them and I understand. I just have some ideas about them that are probably largely out of ignorance as I've never used them.
I asked my garage neighbor at the Chin event what studs he was using on his E36M3 and he told me Motorsport Hardware purchased from FCP Euro (guaranteed for life!) So I checked them out--they use Blue Loctite for install and they're torqued into the hub at 25#. Now here we go.....I have a fundamental problem with trusting a wheel being held on with a stud that is basically glued into the hub. Factor in that it's only torqued to 25#; I know how difficult my lug bolts sometimes are to remove after I get home from a track day, and to me this is a perfect recipe for trying to remove the stud nut and having the stud itself come out of the hub along with it. Again, I don't know if this is something to realistically worry about as I've never used studs but in my mind's eye I can see it happening.
Having said all this, as Eddie says, there are cheap studs and good studs.....these studs I speak about are $3.50 each I think; if you go with, say, MSI studs which are favored in the Porsche racing community and are also used in NASCAR (and by the LAP Motorsports MINIs--I asked them!) I think those run $12 each. And all in-between, but if I was actually going to do this I'd look hard at MSI, especially as they do have a fitment for MINIs on their site.
Re torque settings, I always used 80# and NEVER had an issue until these Konig wheels--I actually torqued the LF to 100# on occasion and it STILL came loose! Hopefully the new wheels (which are now in the garage ) will solve this.
The Turner studs are up in the MSI territory. Turner actually carries MSI and their own. The blue loctite is pretty tough. Not sure I would use it over the red, though. I do carry a torch in my kit, a full wheels worth of spare studs and red loctite...
It's one of many my grandfather took the two times we were up there for the USGP. He wasn't as much a car guy as he was a camera guy, so my guess is that he took this one because of the cameraman.
09-10-2020, 02:41 PM
) will solve this.
