I was just pointing out that shelling out large $$$ on a custom tune is probably on the 'decreasing returns' side of the mod game for most people. Wasn't asking for a quote, already got one.

 

this for me is the one thing Stoopid and I talk about all the time.... we have met so many great people.... and had expirences we never would have other wise... even for MLE and I ... our final moment before we started dating was the disscussion about how we both wanted minis... ..and the rest is history.....

 

I can certainly see the benefit of a custom tune if you have mods beyond the typical pulley, CAI, and cat-back. For those with just the typical, a custom dyno tune is not necessary and not really worth the $700 is was quoted here in happy ole Maryland.

It sure would be nice if the MD tuner would post his prices on his web page like Helix does. Then we would all get charged the same price for the same work. No fear of a bait and switch then.

 

ha ha! this is a tough one... but I will say... with a raise to 7500 RPM... and a tune.. I have consistantly made 25 WHP with a STOCK MINI.. so do not over look a tune as only needed for modded cars... however... if you tune it.... and THEN mod it.. you can hurt the motor.. you MUST retune

 

on just what's in the SW from the factory. The 80s and 90s Ford Mustang had a stumble programmed into the ECU, so that it would bog a bit when you floored it. I think it was a rather weak attempt to discourage smokin' burnouts. An unmodded car could sure benefit from having that removed. The diesel crowd is getting good HP from changing factory programming on stock vehicles. And if the DimSport crowd has figured out how to get something out of the base SW that isn't there (or fixes something that is) from the factory, then there's surely benefit to be had! In my 02, the MTH files sure gave me some midrange improvements over what came with the car.

The idea of same price for tuning is nice, but not all tuners modify the same thing! So it's hard to get apples to apples comparisons. Also, most success is measured on boards by WOT dyno plots, and while that's nice, it doesn't mean diddly for smoothness around town. So what would one compare?

Matt

 

That's a reasonable thought.

In practice, at least when I was there, there are sometimes delays that come up if something isn't up to snuff on the car. So a one-size-fits-all quote would be tough to mainatain.

Happened to me both times.

First time it was my clutch.

Second time it was my new (but wrong sized) SC belt.

With LDG, I haven't noticed any unethical tendencies or bait and switch tactics, since he's never tried to sell me anything.

However, it's possible to get sideways with someone when both are well meaning. Been there and done that, regrettably. In my case, with a very well known MINI guru at his shop way up in Wisconsin a few years ago.

 

If the stock rev limiter were raised to 7500 on the stock software, then we would all see a HP increase. The way I note the improvements to the ECU software with a custom flash like GIAC/LDG is the improvement seen over the entire range up to 6800 rpm. Anything over that is gravy.

It seems like every time I have contacted LDG for pricing on anything, the price changes. Each time it goes up.


Mind you I'm only speaking for those with the typical pulley, CAI and exhaust because thats all I have.

 

ha ha yeah... there I go not being clear again... LOL...

for me this is where I tested almost all the other software... and personally found alot of them didn't even do much...so after much comparison found that if you just raise the rev limit...(relative to your mods) for those "critical" moments... and just "tune" the car... like AFs only.... everything else was fine... oh wait... and the throttle responce... funny thing is.. the car was MUCH happier... ALL AROUND...

I don't drive around WOT.. so " normal" driving matters... to me that is the "art" of tuning... so when I say Tune... I don't mean I added a light up cup holder, stickers, and a CAI

 

yes... with ONLY an RPM raise.... about 10 WHP... on a stock car... due to the face you are spinning the SC up longer... and there for boosting more... but this doesn't mean it's good for other pulleys... 15% ok... etc...

 

I don't doubt that the price may be going up.

Maybe John found that his introductory pricing is simply too low for the labor involved and to recoup the $100K he has invested to do this. Only he could say, I'm simply guessing.

For me it was worth it. With a lightly modded car, maybe not.

But I'd probably go that way rather than adding more mods that may or may not improve performance.

The primary point I really tried to make - that I may not have made clearly enough - isn't about LDG, but about the fact that I spent a ton of money that hit a performance ceiling, and that in retrospect, I misspent it. John's suggestions to remove some of these expensive mods proved to be spot on, much to my financial dismay.

 

Very good post and makes allot of sense. I have a daily driver and to me low and mid range throttle response & power are more important while others might want and need high end gains.

As long as my car runs strong, smooth and sounds good I am a pretty happy mini owner.

This thread has some great discussions without the drama

 

Great post guys! I like the objectivity, and words of experience from people all over the map. That's proof that can't be disputed. Totally what I love about the MINI community....
jason

 

But it's not all financially bad.. You can sell off the other parts! But more seroiusly, that's why I test. I tried two throttle bodies and the stocker, did G-Tech runs. Found no difference (that was prior to a head, don't know if the comapro still holds true now). IC testing taught me that all can be improved, and that it's not very high on the to-do list, as the return on $ invested is rather low. And on and on and on... And yet, for every data set that shows one thing, there are a whole slew of others who swear that exactly the opposite happened for them!
I'm just frustrated that there's no "At home" tuning tools so that I can just re-tweak after a mod.... For cost remaps really eat up $ for those of us whos cars rarely stay stable for long....
As far as John and LDG (And others like him), it's good to see that you're happy with the service and results.

Matt

 

To be fair there's a little more to it than just raising of prices.
The initial price a couple months ago when he first started offering it was an introductory price. So after a period he raised it to his normal price.

For a while there were also mail-in tunes available. That also has gone away, but that was because of a control issue. He didn't want to get into a situation where someone was running way too lean and run the risk of a engine going up.

I'm not entirely sure but I also think the non-dyno-tuned flash went away. Again, this was because of a control and QA thing. He wants to provide the best and safest tune for the car. So the newest price you got probably reflects the dyno tune.

 

Maybe you could tell me what the normal price is currently. Right around the Dragon timeframe it was $325 for the flash. Now, the last I checked it was $500.

The latest info that I have from them is $500 for the flash and $700 for the flash with a dyno tune.

Now, this one product is not the only thing that has had ever increasing pricing and I'm not the only one to experience it. It has been my experience that when you contact them for pricing, that the prices are sort of pulled out of a hat. Except for those chosen few of course.

Sure. I was one of the ones that enjoyed the "special" pricing for the pulley install and I am very greatful for the help and insight I received at the time.

However, things have changed over there and I personally believe that the "change" can be timed with the expansion of square footage at his place of business.

 

The actual cost of the "next tune" is almost nothing. The cost of the software to do it, the skills to do it, and the place to do it all cost a lot. Bigger store, more costs....

Also, this isn't something like a 1/4-20 nut. As skills increase, so does the value delivered. As experience with the work increases, so does the actual cost accounting of what the service costs to deliver, as well as the marketplace for competing products.

That said, I think the worst place to get pricing is second hand on the web. There are better sources for the answers to your questions. Call John and ask him! He's always been a straight shooter with me.

Matt

 

consider yourself lucky then. that's the point a few of us are trying to make. it's a moving target and it seems to have some bearing on who you are.

 

so he is tuning 17%?
last time i saw on this forum, some member stated that he won't tune 17%

 

just call him and ask... FWIW, when I spoke to him about tuning, he was just starting out and had a price to attract attention, after all, you have to do something when you come to the party late. But I fully assumed that the price would rise....

As far as ECU mods go, you get MTH for pretty cheap, and then some ECU send/returns are over $700 (Evosport was, last time I checked). The piggybacks go for Unichip pricing ($800 new) to full Hydra (~$2k). While these are all ball-parkish, what would one expect a good ECU tune to go for? Somewhere north of $300 and south of $700. Then when you through in dyno time for a full dyno tune, ~$1k seems about right.

As another point of reference, the ECU tune in my Mustang was over $300 just to adjust for CA gas! (The guy who tuned it the first time tuned it for 93, and it doesn't have a knock sensor!) So while I do understand your frustration at the moving target, if you step back, you'll see the pricing is in the ball-park for what's offered for the Mini, is in the ball park for other cars, and is also somewhat understandable as the details of the business model get refined.

Maybe he does just make up prices on the fly, or not. I really have no clue. But the behaviour seems to fall into what you'd expect for a new effort, so I'll assume it's that till I know different.

Matt

ps, MTH was cheap, then less cheap, then the tuner came out at a higher price, lifetime tune updates went away, and you end up with what they're offering now. This is another example of how ECU tunes seem to have a life of thier own, as the businesses realize what it takes to support the effort.

 

All the pricing that I have ever received has been from the horse's mouth.

I'm not only speaking about "tune" pricing but everything I have asked about since I got the pulley installed.

I'm pretty sure GIAC has always been the same price.


When I first did business with them, I thought; here is an honest guy and a great place to have work done
on not just my MINI but any car that I own. With the teatment I have received since, I guess not. Perhaps they
are more open and honest with the out of town folks.

I'm done.

 

Potentially another door is opening up - LDG Tuning Events.

I worked with John and Peter of Minspeed to co-ordinate a local Tuning Party. John flew down to Miami and he tuned 6 cars. John wanted to see if Tuning Parties were viable and see what the stumbling blocks were. It wasn't a perfect day there were some stumbling blocks but there are 6 LDG tuned cars in Miami and the owners seemed pretty happy when they departed.

I know John is thinking about how the day went, how to improve upon it and if it can be replicated well with some consistency.

For those not aware - there is a thread in the LDG forum.

 

Your going to hell for this

 

I think that in order to do this John would have to have what's known in the concert promotions business as a "rider".... the list of equipment etc that needs to be supplied by the host as a condition of an event...... if done correctly, results should be consistent regardless of venue

 

I agree and would add

1) that cars that want tuned need to go thru a pre-check so there are no slipping belts or clutch ().

2) While we did present each car w/ mods to John ahead of time, it would be beneficial if John new what stock ECU file version was on each car this way he could pre-prep and save time.

It was a learning experience for all with the benefit of a fun day and 6 "Lucky" cars. Doubtful that the price can be sustained but thats okay, I was 1 of the 6.


.

 

Must be.

Except for the tons of local cars (not MINIS) I saw when I was there on two visits almost six months apart, and all the local MINI owners I met who seem to feel like they're part of the family...

More than likely it's a simple misunderstanding or a personality conflict. If it weren't something like that, his shop couldn't be so successful.

I get along with most folks really well, but you couldn't go by that with my experience at RDR in Wisconsin back when Charlie Rossier was just starting to make the camber plates.

Sometimes we just get sideways (often on money) when both parties usually mean well.