Drivetrain Rotational vibration after lowering
#26
Just to clarify. What I said was "We have yet to have a problem with our local clients with the cars we have wrenched on. I suspect it may be still an installation issue."
I DIDN'T say it wasn't a problem nor did I say I didn't believe or understand that others had the issue. What I am saying is that we have installed quite a few on our personal MINI's and local clients MINI's and none have had this complaint. SO I would hope to get one soon so I can then play further with a solution or a root cause.
Thanks for the post an the info on the German company. Interesting stuff!
I DIDN'T say it wasn't a problem nor did I say I didn't believe or understand that others had the issue. What I am saying is that we have installed quite a few on our personal MINI's and local clients MINI's and none have had this complaint. SO I would hope to get one soon so I can then play further with a solution or a root cause.
Thanks for the post an the info on the German company. Interesting stuff!
#27
i've dropped mine 1.5" without issues (CVs have 101k miles and 4.5 yrs autox)...
i've read the threads on this matter that pertain to the first gen, and observed the variety of experience and similiar consternation when folks with the issue and those without compare notes...
as far as i've learned, i would make a slightly narrower conclusion that the one you just stated, i would say
SOME minis do not like lowering past a certain point
what seperates those that like it from those that do not? that i've not learned, as no consensus has appeared that i have found
candidates considered include:
* the amount of lowering
* the number of miles on the CV joints when lowering occurred
* the batch of CV joints installed on any particular car
* the type of service the car is engaged in
yet it remains a mystery - an obvious and extreme aggravation for those that encounter the problem, and baffling for those that do not.
i look forward to see what you learn through spacers - thanks for sharing
i've read the threads on this matter that pertain to the first gen, and observed the variety of experience and similiar consternation when folks with the issue and those without compare notes...
as far as i've learned, i would make a slightly narrower conclusion that the one you just stated, i would say
SOME minis do not like lowering past a certain point
what seperates those that like it from those that do not? that i've not learned, as no consensus has appeared that i have found
candidates considered include:
* the amount of lowering
* the number of miles on the CV joints when lowering occurred
* the batch of CV joints installed on any particular car
* the type of service the car is engaged in
yet it remains a mystery - an obvious and extreme aggravation for those that encounter the problem, and baffling for those that do not.
i look forward to see what you learn through spacers - thanks for sharing
#28
i've dropped mine 1.5" without issues (CVs have 101k miles and 4.5 yrs autox)...
i've read the threads on this matter that pertain to the first gen, and observed the variety of experience and similiar consternation when folks with the issue and those without compare notes...
as far as i've learned, i would make a slightly narrower conclusion that the one you just stated, i would say
SOME minis do not like lowering past a certain point
what seperates those that like it from those that do not? that i've not learned, as no consensus has appeared that i have found
candidates considered include:
* the amount of lowering
* the number of miles on the CV joints when lowering occurred
* the batch of CV joints installed on any particular car
* the type of service the car is engaged in
yet it remains a mystery - an obvious and extreme aggravation for those that encounter the problem, and baffling for those that do not.
i look forward to see what you learn through spacers - thanks for sharing
i've read the threads on this matter that pertain to the first gen, and observed the variety of experience and similiar consternation when folks with the issue and those without compare notes...
as far as i've learned, i would make a slightly narrower conclusion that the one you just stated, i would say
SOME minis do not like lowering past a certain point
what seperates those that like it from those that do not? that i've not learned, as no consensus has appeared that i have found
candidates considered include:
* the amount of lowering
* the number of miles on the CV joints when lowering occurred
* the batch of CV joints installed on any particular car
* the type of service the car is engaged in
yet it remains a mystery - an obvious and extreme aggravation for those that encounter the problem, and baffling for those that do not.
i look forward to see what you learn through spacers - thanks for sharing
#30
I put the HR lowering springs on at 7k miles on my 2007 S. I've done springs before and I was real careful as always. I have a slight vibration in first gear only at 0-10mph when accelerating. I've neglected to have my car re-aligned as I will probably wait until I get new tires. I kind of figured it was a factor of alignment... but maybe not. Just another data point perhaps. It's not so bad as I would rather have the stock springs back on. No way, the car handles too much better to sacrifice a little vibration at low speed. It doesnt seem like a CV joint to me though. Also, I can attest it happened immediately after lowering. Day 1.
#31
I opened this thread seven months ago and did much searching into the root cause for this. In the end - all anyone really has on this is speculation. No one (including me) has pinned down the cause.
After several thousand miles the vibration lessened in amplitude, but never disappeared. During that time, I've gone to 17" wheels with non-runflats all without elimination of the vibration. Three weeks ago, I tore the suspension out myself and installed the full JCW suspension kit with JCW springs and headed for the alignment rack. Perfect. Period. No rotational vibration. No hint of rotational vibration. Done - Fini! Put a fork in it. No return of the dreaded torque-steer either.
Draw your own conclusion from all of this. It's well known that hundreds of cars are being lowered without any issues what-so-ever. Mine was not one of them. It's also foolish to assume that persons capable of performing their own work should immediately cause others to imply that you MUST have assembled it wrong. Nonsense. Some of us have been there (many times over) and know better. It's just an unfortunate bi-product of certain component design that some of us will have to live with if we choose to modify our cars.
That's my story and I'm stickin' to it!
Edit - I just read the mention of H&R using a spacer solution. Seems like the only logical answer to come out of this. Maybe there is a straight-forward solution and a known root cause. I'll watch the thread for news.
After several thousand miles the vibration lessened in amplitude, but never disappeared. During that time, I've gone to 17" wheels with non-runflats all without elimination of the vibration. Three weeks ago, I tore the suspension out myself and installed the full JCW suspension kit with JCW springs and headed for the alignment rack. Perfect. Period. No rotational vibration. No hint of rotational vibration. Done - Fini! Put a fork in it. No return of the dreaded torque-steer either.
Draw your own conclusion from all of this. It's well known that hundreds of cars are being lowered without any issues what-so-ever. Mine was not one of them. It's also foolish to assume that persons capable of performing their own work should immediately cause others to imply that you MUST have assembled it wrong. Nonsense. Some of us have been there (many times over) and know better. It's just an unfortunate bi-product of certain component design that some of us will have to live with if we choose to modify our cars.
That's my story and I'm stickin' to it!
Edit - I just read the mention of H&R using a spacer solution. Seems like the only logical answer to come out of this. Maybe there is a straight-forward solution and a known root cause. I'll watch the thread for news.
Last edited by PaulCIssa; 06-30-2008 at 01:41 PM. Reason: Pays to read the whole thread
#33
I talk to a mechanic here in PR, he explained to me something about progressive H&R springs thats is the cause of the sound.
He told me to check the springs to see if they are marked. I found this on internet about what he told me.
What is Coil Bind?
Coil bind occurs whenever a spring is compressed and one or more of the springs active coils contacts another coil. The rate of the spring increases whenever a coil binds since the bound coil or coils are no longer active(this changes one of the three rate-determining factors). Of course, handling is affected whenever a coil binds. If the spring is compressed to solid height (all coils touching) during suspension movement, the suspension will cease to work. You can, and should, check for evidence of coil bind by examining the finish between the active coils. If any coils have bound the finish between them will show contact marks that appear as though they were drawn with a lead pencil. Normally any spring that is binding should be replaced with a taller spring. Be aware, however, there are racing springs on the market that are built with wire that is heavier than what's needed. These springs will coil bind before others that are built with the proper size wire.
Under very extreme conditions, coil binding can cause a spring to unwind slightly. This can cause the mean diameter of the spring to increase and reduce rate of the spring. You should realize that the potential for coil bind is increased whenever short springs are used. Always match the spring to the job.
He told me to check the springs to see if they are marked. I found this on internet about what he told me.
What is Coil Bind?
Coil bind occurs whenever a spring is compressed and one or more of the springs active coils contacts another coil. The rate of the spring increases whenever a coil binds since the bound coil or coils are no longer active(this changes one of the three rate-determining factors). Of course, handling is affected whenever a coil binds. If the spring is compressed to solid height (all coils touching) during suspension movement, the suspension will cease to work. You can, and should, check for evidence of coil bind by examining the finish between the active coils. If any coils have bound the finish between them will show contact marks that appear as though they were drawn with a lead pencil. Normally any spring that is binding should be replaced with a taller spring. Be aware, however, there are racing springs on the market that are built with wire that is heavier than what's needed. These springs will coil bind before others that are built with the proper size wire.
Under very extreme conditions, coil binding can cause a spring to unwind slightly. This can cause the mean diameter of the spring to increase and reduce rate of the spring. You should realize that the potential for coil bind is increased whenever short springs are used. Always match the spring to the job.
Last edited by fernflex; 06-30-2008 at 02:15 PM.
#34
Couple things. If anyone local to us, has this problem (regardless of if we installed them or not) PLEASE ring me and arrange a time to bring the car in. We can't duplicate it!!!! Even on cars slammed on coilovers and I don't have this issue.
fernflex: not to make a simple poo poo to the comment made, but that doesn't make any sense. Plus H&R (and others) make TONS of springs for TONS of FWD cars. If your mechanics theory was true then WAY more brands of cars etc. would all be affected.
So the search goes on!
fernflex: not to make a simple poo poo to the comment made, but that doesn't make any sense. Plus H&R (and others) make TONS of springs for TONS of FWD cars. If your mechanics theory was true then WAY more brands of cars etc. would all be affected.
So the search goes on!
#35
Its just a theory, I explained the problem to him by phone and he told me that maybe is because the springs are progressive, it got nothing to do with the brand.
Maybe we did something wrong installing the spring or is just pure luck that this problem affects a many people n this forum but we have to find a answer to this problem.
Its just not normal
Maybe we did something wrong installing the spring or is just pure luck that this problem affects a many people n this forum but we have to find a answer to this problem.
Its just not normal
#36
Its just a theory, I explained the problem to him by phone and he told me that maybe is because the springs are progressive, it got nothing to do with the brand.
Maybe we did something wrong installing the spring or is just pure luck that this problem affects a many people n this forum but we have to find a answer to this problem.
Its just not normal
Maybe we did something wrong installing the spring or is just pure luck that this problem affects a many people n this forum but we have to find a answer to this problem.
Its just not normal
This should not produce any sounds really, i have never heard sounds from a progressive spring that would differ from a linear spring if the suspension is working well.
#37
#39
I was unable to get a hold of the spacers from Germany and the vibrations did not get any better, even after putting 3000 miles on the springs. I finally had enough and decided to go with the TSW springs. I installed them today and WOW, what a difference.
THE VIBRATIONS ARE GONE!!!
The ride is much more comfortable, doesn't feel like I'm riding a brick anymore, and the handeling is AMAZING. The install was done by the same person, the only variable that changed was the springs. I am CONVINCED that the problem came from the Alta H&R springs.
Do yourself a favor and buy a set of the TSW springs if you are experiencing the vibration problem with the Alta/H&R springs. I guarantee you that it will solve the issue. Best $200 I have spent. The linear springs are the way to go for the MINI. The drop looks good and like I said, the handeling is amazing.
THANK YOU TEXAS SPEEDWERKS!!!
THE VIBRATIONS ARE GONE!!!
The ride is much more comfortable, doesn't feel like I'm riding a brick anymore, and the handeling is AMAZING. The install was done by the same person, the only variable that changed was the springs. I am CONVINCED that the problem came from the Alta H&R springs.
Do yourself a favor and buy a set of the TSW springs if you are experiencing the vibration problem with the Alta/H&R springs. I guarantee you that it will solve the issue. Best $200 I have spent. The linear springs are the way to go for the MINI. The drop looks good and like I said, the handeling is amazing.
THANK YOU TEXAS SPEEDWERKS!!!
Last edited by Tampa MCS; 07-17-2008 at 05:35 PM.
#40
I was unable to get a hold of the spacers from Germany and the vibrations did not get any better, even after putting 3000 miles on the springs. I finally had enough and decided to go with the TSW springs. I installed them today and WOW, what a difference.
THE VIBRATIONS ARE GONE!!!
The ride is much more comfortable, doesn't feel like I'm riding a brick anymore, and the handeling is AMAZING. The install was done by the same person, the only variable that changed was the springs. I am CONVINCED that the problem came from the Alta H&R springs.
Do yourself a favor and buy a set of the TSW springs if you are experiencing the vibration problem with the Alta/H&R springs. I guarantee you that it will solve the issue. Best $200 I have spent. The linear springs are the way to go for the MINI. The drop looks good and like I said, the handeling is amazing.
THANK YOU TEXAS SPEEDWERKS!!!
THE VIBRATIONS ARE GONE!!!
The ride is much more comfortable, doesn't feel like I'm riding a brick anymore, and the handeling is AMAZING. The install was done by the same person, the only variable that changed was the springs. I am CONVINCED that the problem came from the Alta H&R springs.
Do yourself a favor and buy a set of the TSW springs if you are experiencing the vibration problem with the Alta/H&R springs. I guarantee you that it will solve the issue. Best $200 I have spent. The linear springs are the way to go for the MINI. The drop looks good and like I said, the handeling is amazing.
THANK YOU TEXAS SPEEDWERKS!!!
In fact we JUST did an 04.5 MCS today and it was perfect as well. Same springs as your original ones.
I still stand by that it is somehow installation related and when these were switched out, then the problem was corrected. Can't think of anything else.
AGAIN, VERY HAPPY THAT YOUR PROBLEM IS SOLVED regardless how you got there!
Still wish I had a local car to feel this vibration, then try to fix.
IF ANYONE IN THE PDX AREA HAS THIS ISSUE PLEASE LET ME KNOW!!!!
#41
I am VERY happy that your issue is resolved. But again, that just doesn't make any sense.
In fact we JUST did an 04.5 MCS today and it was perfect as well. Same springs as your original ones.
I still stand by that it is somehow installation related and when these were switched out, then the problem was corrected. Can't think of anything else.
AGAIN, VERY HAPPY THAT YOUR PROBLEM IS SOLVED regardless how you got there!
Still wish I had a local car to feel this vibration, then try to fix.
IF ANYONE IN THE PDX AREA HAS THIS ISSUE PLEASE LET ME KNOW!!!!
In fact we JUST did an 04.5 MCS today and it was perfect as well. Same springs as your original ones.
I still stand by that it is somehow installation related and when these were switched out, then the problem was corrected. Can't think of anything else.
AGAIN, VERY HAPPY THAT YOUR PROBLEM IS SOLVED regardless how you got there!
Still wish I had a local car to feel this vibration, then try to fix.
IF ANYONE IN THE PDX AREA HAS THIS ISSUE PLEASE LET ME KNOW!!!!
Last edited by Tampa MCS; 07-18-2008 at 03:35 AM.
#42
Nice try...but it's NOT an install issue. I guess some people willl never admit that there is a problem even though the proof is right in their face. This is one of the many reasons why I will stear clear of Alta in the future. I like companies that stand behind their products and don't try and make their customers look like their incompetent.
BUT, I do want to find out how to resolve the issue. Without a car in my shop that is having the problem, how can I possibly work toward a solution? PLUS this isn't an "ALTA" problem, others mention concerns with OTHER brands of springs as well, Eibach, MACH V and others. SO why are you all over my backside about this?
You as a member of this collective community are more than entitled to your opinion etc. but you are also responsible for helping ALL of us NAM folks to work together to solve problems or concerns with the vehicles we all love, in this case the MINI.
I NEVER once blamed you, or gave you any reason not to recommend our products or our service. I am GLAD you got this resolved.
IF I CAN HELP YOU IN THE FUTURE THE OFFER STILL STANDS TO DO SO!
#43
Oh poop-sticks! That isn't my insinuation at all. I keep trying to get through to you that WE CAN NOT DUPLICATE THIS PROBLEM with H&R Springs, ALTA/H&R Springs, CROSS Coilovers, H&R Coilovers, ETC. ETC. THAT IS NOT TO SAY THAT YOU AND OTHERS HAVE NOT HAD AN ISSUE!!! Never even implied that! Sheesh.
BUT, I do want to find out how to resolve the issue. Without a car in my shop that is having the problem, how can I possibly work toward a solution? PLUS this isn't an "ALTA" problem, others mention concerns with OTHER brands of springs as well, Eibach, MACH V and others. SO why are you all over my backside about this?
You as a member of this collective community are more than entitled to your opinion etc. but you are also responsible for helping ALL of us NAM folks to work together to solve problems or concerns with the vehicles we all love, in this case the MINI.
I NEVER once blamed you, or gave you any reason not to recommend our products or our service. I am GLAD you got this resolved.
IF I CAN HELP YOU IN THE FUTURE THE OFFER STILL STANDS TO DO SO!
BUT, I do want to find out how to resolve the issue. Without a car in my shop that is having the problem, how can I possibly work toward a solution? PLUS this isn't an "ALTA" problem, others mention concerns with OTHER brands of springs as well, Eibach, MACH V and others. SO why are you all over my backside about this?
You as a member of this collective community are more than entitled to your opinion etc. but you are also responsible for helping ALL of us NAM folks to work together to solve problems or concerns with the vehicles we all love, in this case the MINI.
I NEVER once blamed you, or gave you any reason not to recommend our products or our service. I am GLAD you got this resolved.
IF I CAN HELP YOU IN THE FUTURE THE OFFER STILL STANDS TO DO SO!
https://www.northamericanmotoring.co...d.php?t=142142
#44
Thanks for the offer, but you and I both know you don't mean that. I guess you forgot all about the MANY problems I have had with your organization.
https://www.northamericanmotoring.co...d.php?t=142142
https://www.northamericanmotoring.co...d.php?t=142142
If you ever decide to take up the opportunity I have offered before to chat, let me know. If not, then I have no ability to help further. SO MY offer still stands. And I DO mean that. If I didn't I wouldn't be in business today.
So are YOU willing to take the offer extended to you?
#45
Never said we or anyone else is perfect! However, we do stand behind our products and customer service. If you feel I have let you down, (as I mentioned above) you are MORE than entitled to that opinion.
If you ever decide to take up the opportunity I have offered before to chat, let me know. If not, then I have no ability to help further. SO MY offer still stands. And I DO mean that. If I didn't I wouldn't be in business today.
So are YOU willing to take the offer extended to you?
If you ever decide to take up the opportunity I have offered before to chat, let me know. If not, then I have no ability to help further. SO MY offer still stands. And I DO mean that. If I didn't I wouldn't be in business today.
So are YOU willing to take the offer extended to you?
Last edited by Tampa MCS; 07-18-2008 at 07:33 AM.
#46
Cute!!! If you were willing to make it right from the beginning, I would have rec'd a refund for ALL the defective parts I odered from you including the wrong sized belt, poor plugs and the bad springs. Oh, and I forgot to mention the refund that never happened for the pulley rental tool. I feel that you rec'd more than your fair chance to keep my business. A lot of money and effort was wasted due to your poorly designed parts. and NOTHING was done to rectify the situation. I called and talked to your staff and managers, but NO-ONE was willing to stand up for your products so don't give me this smoke and mirrors about "you care".
Look you feel slighted, I am sorry. BUT HOW THE HECK CAN I HELP YOU IF YOU DON'T ALLOW ME TOO? Meaning, CALL ME, PM ME, E-MAIL ME not my staff. I am taking this out of their hands as I said in the other thread.
If you seriously want to discuss and work on a refund on your previous orders, THEN CONTACT ME!!!!!! If not, you can go about trashing my name and my company all you want, but then it makes you a complete hypocrite.
I don't want this to degrade any further.I just get frustrated when we WANT to help and instead we get this type of reply.
Regardless, ENJOY the car, ENJOY the new springs and any other mods you might add.
Thanks again!
#47
Love how you came back and added the smoke an mirrors comment. Nice after thought.
Look you feel slighted, I am sorry. BUT HOW THE HECK CAN I HELP YOU IF YOU DON'T ALLOW ME TOO? Meaning, CALL ME, PM ME, E-MAIL ME not my staff. I am taking this out of their hands as I said in the other thread.
If you seriously want to discuss and work on a refund on your previous orders, THEN CONTACT ME!!!!!! If not, you can go about trashing my name and my company all you want, but then it makes you a complete hypocrite.
I don't want this to degrade any further.I just get frustrated when we WANT to help and instead we get this type of reply.
Regardless, ENJOY the car, ENJOY the new springs and any other mods you might add.
Thanks again!
Look you feel slighted, I am sorry. BUT HOW THE HECK CAN I HELP YOU IF YOU DON'T ALLOW ME TOO? Meaning, CALL ME, PM ME, E-MAIL ME not my staff. I am taking this out of their hands as I said in the other thread.
If you seriously want to discuss and work on a refund on your previous orders, THEN CONTACT ME!!!!!! If not, you can go about trashing my name and my company all you want, but then it makes you a complete hypocrite.
I don't want this to degrade any further.I just get frustrated when we WANT to help and instead we get this type of reply.
Regardless, ENJOY the car, ENJOY the new springs and any other mods you might add.
Thanks again!
#48
How many emails or PM's does it take. I contacted you directly when this all started and I kept in contact via PM throughout the entire episode. You can start by replying to the one I sent you yesterday. If you want, I can dig up at least 5 emails and PM's. Don't make it sound like I NEVER contacted you.
I just checked ALL of my PM's from the past week and ZERO from TampaMCS.
I answer PM's at ADAMSALTAMINI
Jeff Perrin / Chris in Tech at ALTA2
Ken Jubb Sales Dept ALTA_KEN
John Leitl Wholesale Sales ALTA_John
John Herring Marketing and Web Concerns ALTADESIGN
If I have missed one someplace PLEASE let me know where you sent it? I can't answer what I don't have.
Hope that helps! Thank you!
#49
There are dozenz of MINI owners affected by this:
https://www.northamericanmotoring.co...ad.php?t=32790
https://www.northamericanmotoring.co...d.php?t=140892
https://www.northamericanmotoring.co...d.php?t=120956
I have also been talking to some MINI owners in Germany. They are having the same issue with the H&R springs. A German company has started selling spacers to correct the CV joint problem with a 100 percent success rate. I am trying to get my hands on a set to see if this is something we can start using here. Apparantly the front axles are too short once the vehicle is dropped and it can be a problem even if your car isn't suffering from the vibrations. I'll let you know once I find out futher.
https://www.northamericanmotoring.co...ad.php?t=32790
https://www.northamericanmotoring.co...d.php?t=140892
https://www.northamericanmotoring.co...d.php?t=120956
I have also been talking to some MINI owners in Germany. They are having the same issue with the H&R springs. A German company has started selling spacers to correct the CV joint problem with a 100 percent success rate. I am trying to get my hands on a set to see if this is something we can start using here. Apparantly the front axles are too short once the vehicle is dropped and it can be a problem even if your car isn't suffering from the vibrations. I'll let you know once I find out futher.
#50
I've delt very little with ALTA in the past (I, in fact, will call them tonight/tomorrow due to an out of stock item), but they seem like a friendly bunch. It could be simply that your messages were either misplaced, lost, or just plain didn't go through. I've heard nothing but good things about ALTA.
Maybe the initial installation was poor, and maybe it got fixed the second time. Who knows...
Maybe the initial installation was poor, and maybe it got fixed the second time. Who knows...