I think that the 1X2 magic stick can help you! :smile:

 

>>Alright, so I come home from my presenting my senior design project...and throw back some 'relaxation' brews, and then I get it in my head that, that stupid little peice of plastic is coming the hell out of my car.
>>
>>So I tug and a I pull and a bend and I sweat. Doesnt budge.
>>
>>How the heck did you guys do this? Must require some finess cause I'm givin all she gots as far as power goes.
>>
>>I'm now bleeding and covered in mosquito bites , any help would be really appreciated...

For the sake of the more tender readers, "Holy Moly!"

Did you try using the Blessed Holy 1X2 stick as a wedge? Did you try the "Happenin', 21st Century, high-tech" Club(TM) solution?

 

I would like to be the first to actively BEG someone--i.e. the next person to try this mod--to actually take some pictures of the process of removal of this thing. (Randy? You're back, right? A little help?)

And any additional analysis of cost/benefit of this doohickey being removed would be nice as well.

 

You must remove the front bumper and support. Then you must break a nipple that connects and locks the little 1 inch down tube to the 4x4 est. size collection box that sits in the subframe.

I had pictures step by step of the full extraction. But when I lost my harddrive last summer I lost the pictures.

 

>>>>The resonator is designed to quiet the air intake/bonnet noise inside the cabin. I'm pretty sure this is the function.
>>Besides robbing the engine of power it also is quite effective in quieting the intake noise.
>>Mine is noticeably louder now, but I'll take the noise over the stalling I was experiencing before the mod.

OK, I had to see what this bad-boy was all about, and I think it's getting a bad rap here.

First of all, the engine air does not all go through the resonator box.

Most of the air comes directly through the front intake, through a 2.5 inch diameter
hose, and into the front of the airbox.

The resonator is connected to the side of the hose, and I believe is used for letting air OUT
of the hose when you are driving 90 MPH down the road with a 30 MPH headwind.

Otherwise, you would get increased airpressure in the intake, almost like boost,
and with a more than 10:1 compression, I'm thinking it's going to be ping-city.

So, I'd want to be careful removing it and connecting an intake directly to the
airscoop in front.

I looked at several aftermarket intakes, and I couldn't figure out EXACTLY how
they hooked up, but here are my guesses from their webpages:

Helix: Filter just sits in the engine compartment. (Huh? Could this be right?)
MiniMania: Redesigned intake cover. Uses original tubing?
MiniMania K&n: Can't tell from the website.
Mini Madness/Twister: Uses original hoses mostly? + additional tubing
Pilo racing/twister: Uses original tubing. + additional tubing
Rspeed: Intake hangs directly in engine compartment.
Promini: UNknown. Looks like it uses the original tubing.

ANYWAY.......

That's my take on the situation.

 

To clarify Trippy's list of intakes for the Cooper :

These all require removing the OEM airbox(except for 1) and filter :

Helix (K&N Typhoon) - connects directly to throttle body, is placed in former airbox space
MiniMania kit hooks up to airscoop, I believe *(keeps stock airbox)
Green Twister hooks up to front air scoop directly
Viper connects to resonator box
Promini connects to resonator box
Monstermini replaces throttle body (similar to Helix/K&N)
Rspeed same as Helix and Monster

You don't HAVE to remove the resonator box on any of them, it was something I was trying to do while testing out the Green Twister.

 

Edited comments from Trippy:

>>First of all, the engine air does not all go through the resonator box.
>>
>>Most of the air comes directly through the front intake, through a 2.5 inch diameter
>>hose, and into the front of the airbox.
>>
>>The resonator is connected to the side of the hose, and I believe is used for letting air OUT

The resonator is called a Helmholtz resonator and acts as a sound deadener. All the air comes in through the intake from the center of the grill. The Helmholtz resonator is a sort of side alley for the air to act as a baffle to quieten the intake. It doesn't let any air out.

>>of the hose when you are driving 90 MPH down the road with a 30 MPH headwind.
>>
>>Otherwise, you would get increased airpressure in the intake, almost like boost,
>>and with a more than 10:1 compression, I'm thinking it's going to be ping-city.
>>
>>So, I'd want to be careful removing it and connecting an intake directly to the
>>airscoop in front.
>>
>>I looked at several aftermarket intakes, and I couldn't figure out EXACTLY how
>>they hooked up, but here are my guesses from their webpages:
>>
>>Helix: Filter just sits in the engine compartment. (Huh? Could this be right?)
>>MiniMania: Redesigned intake cover. Uses original tubing?
>>MiniMania K&n: Can't tell from the website.
>>Mini Madness/Twister: Uses original hoses mostly? + additional tubing
>>Pilo racing/twister: Uses original tubing. + additional tubing
>>Rspeed: Intake hangs directly in engine compartment.
>>Promini: UNknown. Looks like it uses the original tubing.
>>
>>ANYWAY.......
>>
>>That's my take on the situation.

The MiniMania kit provides a new intake from the center of the grill, and necessitates the removal of the resonator to fit the new intake. It uses the original airbox, but they give you a new lid with their logo stamped on it.

From what I can see all these other kits bypass the resonator and the airbox. You must remove the resonator for the Minimania intake because there would otherwise be no way to hook up the intake to the stock airbox as the resonator gets in the way. If you don't use the airbox, but some new filter container, you could leave the resonator in place but not doing anything.

 

>> The resonator is called a Helmholtz resonator and acts as a sound deadener. All the air comes in through the intake from the center of the grill. The Helmholtz resonator is a sort of side alley for the air to act as a baffle to quieten the intake. It doesn't let any air out.

This picture sure makes it look like it lets air out.

The upper-right is the air from the front of the car.
The tube going away from the cameraman is the air to the airbox
and the long tube going down and to the left goes into the area above the
driver's side wheel arch. I think air goes OUT this hole.

Do you have opinions otherwise?

Here is the other side:


And here is the "outlet" tube. If the air dowsn't come out here, what's going on?

 

>> The resonator is called a Helmholtz resonator and acts as a sound deadener.

Oh MAN, I just googled "Helmholtz resonator" that's the LAST thing you would want in there.

It's made for GENERATING sound not deadening it :smile:

_________________

 

>>
>>
>>And here is the "outlet" tube. If the air dowsn't come out here, what's going on?
>>

I'm thinking that is a water drain; I wondered where all the rain sucked up by the front snout went untill i crawled under and saw that - it seems to be at a low point, aftre the flexi-snorkle but before the airbox ...

 

>>>> The resonator is called a Helmholtz resonator and acts as a sound deadener.
>>
>>Oh MAN, I just googled "Helmholtz resonator" that's the LAST thing you would want in there.
>>
>>It's made for GENERATING sound not deadening it :smile:
>>

A helmholtz resonator, according to your own references, was merely a device that causes a resonant frequency due to pressure (blowing over the top of a bottle as an example). Frequencies can both add and subtract, so while in one mode it may be creating a sound, in another mode it very well may be muffling a sound.

I don't think he was talking fluff at all, and maybe you should have researched more before calling him on it.

8ball, I can definitely agree with that theory, which could lead to other questions like 'just how important is this drain....'

_________________
currently PMSing due to last 2 weeks of college...

 

>>I'm thinking that is a water drain; I wondered where all the rain sucked up by the front snout went untill i crawled under and saw that - it seems to be at a low point, aftre the flexi-snorkle but before the airbox ...


I like this idea.

If you look at the shape of the tube, there are two places for the water
to drop down into the box before it gets to the airbox-entry tube, so I
also think that this is for water to get out.

And that pretty much means that it isn't a closed box at the bottom, and
therefore also isn't a Helmholtz resonator to deaden the intake noise.

I'm not wedded to any of these theories, but I know a little too much about
physics to think that this box could be a way to dampen the wide range of
frequencies coming out of the intake by being a resonator.

It COULD be possible, but I'm giving it a very low probability fo being true.

And I like the water idea. Although there is a hole in the intake box bottom
that would be able to drain SOME water out, and the box is HUGE, so the air
slows way down, and I doubt that the water could make it all the way to the
intake pipe.

So, how do the aftermarket intakes deal with water if they don;t have the
airbox to get the water out?

 

>>>>I'm thinking that is a water drain; I wondered where all the rain sucked up by the front snout went untill i crawled under and saw that - it seems to be at a low point, aftre the flexi-snorkle but before the airbox ...
>>
>>
>>I like this idea.
>>
>>If you look at the shape of the tube, there are two places for the water
>>to drop down into the box before it gets to the airbox-entry tube, so I
>>also think that this is for water to get out.
>>
>>And that pretty much means that it isn't a closed box at the bottom, and
>>therefore also isn't a Helmholtz resonator to deaden the intake noise.
>>
>>I'm not wedded to any of these theories, but I know a little too much about
>>physics to think that this box could be a way to dampen the wide range of
>>frequencies coming out of the intake by being a resonator.
>>
>>It COULD be possible, but I'm giving it a very low probability fo being true.
>>
>>And I like the water idea. Although there is a hole in the intake box bottom
>>that would be able to drain SOME water out, and the box is HUGE, so the air
>>slows way down, and I doubt that the water could make it all the way to the
>>intake pipe.
>>
>>So, how do the aftermarket intakes deal with water if they don;t have the
>>airbox to get the water out?
>>

So what exactly are your qualifications in physics that you feel the need to rule this out as a sound deadening device.

lets go through some of the main points: 1) It share the baffled design with a muffler, A muffler being a sound deadening device on the exhaust side of the engine .
2)When you bypass it you get a huge increase in intake noise.

I'm no scientist but its pretty obvious to me what the function of the resonator is...

 

To those who HAVE removed the resonator box - is the car a LOT louder? The water drain idea seems possible, but I really don't know how much water gets sucked into the front air scoop. Next time I'm driving in torrential rains (like today) I'll check under the bonnet immediately.

 

I had water get sucked into my intake for sure. There was some slight surface rust on the metal part of the new intake tube (the wire that forms a support spring for the tube). It didnt appear to go very deep into the intake. But my check engine light did turn on that same day, and has yet to go off...........

 

>>>>I'm not wedded to any of these theories, but I know a little too much about
>>>>physics to think that this box could be a way to dampen the wide range of
>>>>frequencies coming out of the intake by being a resonator.
>>>>
>>>>It COULD be possible, but I'm giving it a very low probability fo being true.

>>So what exactly are your qualifications in physics that you feel the need to rule this out as a sound deadening device.

Well first, "It COULD be possible" doesn't rule it out in my book.

Second, I have a BS degree in Mechatronics which is Mechanical engineering with an emphasis on
robotics and control-systems. Those courses in System-Dynamics and control were great for things
like resonators and damping.

So you are right that there is some complicated structure in there that I wouldn't think
would be necessary for a water drain tube, so SOMEHTING might be going on.

The structure looks quite different than the structure in the last muffler I blew up
though. It looks more like it's for strength than baffling, but whu knows?

I will play with trying to run with it disconnected temporarily. I'll try just removing the
intake tube from the airbox and see what it sounds like although that's a crappy
test since we son;t have the airbox at all to deaden the noise. (And the air filter will certainly
do a fair bit of air deadening for sure)

So, on to you: What's your physics training that you think a resonator shaped like this
CAN lower the range of sound that comes from our intake?

 

OK Guys, Here's a new wrinkle. How hard is it to put the resonater back once it's taken out. I was about ready to remove mine when I realized that in California, none of these aftermarket intakes are CARB approved which means that you won't be able to pass smog check without putting the stock intake back in.

For now, I'm leaving mine right where it is to resonate, collect water, skin knuckles, catch bugs, or do whatever it's there for.

When smog time comes, I'll just put the stock airbox back in for a few hours, then back to "normal"

ANdy

 

>> How hard is it to put the resonater back once it's taken out.

I have not takes mine out yet, so I don't know.

But, here's a guess:

I think it will just fit back together, and everything will hold in place
long enough to get through the inspection although it might be a bit
more rattly than before. The upper end fits into the airbox fairly
soundly, and the lower end looks like it goes into the fenderwell
about 3/4 Inch or so, so I think it'll stay put. (Opinion only, NOT
experimental evidence)

BUT, how does the new intake you are using attach to the front
air intake? Make sure you save all that hozaroo to get through
inspection also.

 

This thread is absolutely crazy. I think I understand the resonator box less now, than when it began. Does no one have any MINI contacts whom they could speak with to question about the point of this resonator? Is it for sound? Water? Both? Something totally different? It's a big funky piece that's got to have a pretty good point of being there...

Randy? Are you out there?

 

>>>> The resonator is called a Helmholtz resonator and acts as a sound deadener.
>>
>>Oh MAN, I just googled "Helmholtz resonator" that's the LAST thing you would want in there.
>>
>>It's made for GENERATING sound not deadening it :smile:

No. I looked up Helmholtz resonator on Google when it was first mentioned some time back on a similar thread. It is a tuning device, so can generate or suppress noise.

Dueliing Website #4

I am not a mechanical engineer. When I bought the Minimania intake I called for information about how to get the resonator off as they warned in the instructions that it was difficult. I believe they said the tube going into the wheel well deadended in a box. No outlet. I did not remove the fender to get the resonator out. With the help of my trusty sidekick, Pointy Stick, I defeated the evil Lord Helmholtz Resonator, and, Lo, my Mighty Steed was transformed.

 

>>To those who HAVE removed the resonator box - is the car a LOT louder? The water drain idea seems possible, but I really don't know how much water gets sucked into the front air scoop. Next time I'm driving in torrential rains (like today) I'll check under the bonnet immediately.

Yes, it is significantly louder. Not obnoxious, but definitely noticeable.

Crikey, this has turned into the Thread That Will Not Die.

 

>>>>>>I'm not wedded to any of these theories, but I know a little too much about
>>>>>>physics to think that this box could be a way to dampen the wide range of
>>>>>>frequencies coming out of the intake by being a resonator.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>It COULD be possible, but I'm giving it a very low probability fo being true.
>>
>>>>So what exactly are your qualifications in physics that you feel the need to rule this out as a sound deadening device.
>>
>>Well first, "It COULD be possible" doesn't rule it out in my book.
>>
>>Second, I have a BS degree in Mechatronics which is Mechanical engineering with an emphasis on
>>robotics and control-systems. Those courses in System-Dynamics and control were great for things
>>like resonators and damping.
>>
>>So you are right that there is some complicated structure in there that I wouldn't think
>>would be necessary for a water drain tube, so SOMEHTING might be going on.
>>
>>The structure looks quite different than the structure in the last muffler I blew up
>>though. It looks more like it's for strength than baffling, but whu knows?
>>
>>I will play with trying to run with it disconnected temporarily. I'll try just removing the
>>intake tube from the airbox and see what it sounds like although that's a crappy
>>test since we son;t have the airbox at all to deaden the noise. (And the air filter will certainly
>>do a fair bit of air deadening for sure)
>>
>>So, on to you: What's your physics training that you think a resonator shaped like this
>>CAN lower the range of sound that comes from our intake?
>>
>>
no better, no worse. bs in electrical engineering, minor in physics - if that actually means anything (as of last week, as you can see from my sig).

Not that it matters, as I was merely applying logic. But since we were sharing, and my degree is all fresh out of the box, I figured it would be fun

 

This is an easy one. (IMO, and without any physics understanding)

To understand how the resonator box works (helmans, hymans, whatever) consider the design of your exhaust. Most stock exhaust applications (even after market in situations) do not run a straight through exhaust. Instead, baffles are added to redirect and manipulate the sound waves (and to add back pressure). Think stealth fighter vs. radar. The stealth fighter redirects radar signals much in the same way so it is not "heard" as well.

Why was it engineered in there? If you heard the throttle body open up, would you have followed the breakin period?

_________________
-goin440

 

>>Crikey, this has turned into the Thread That Will Not Die.

That's because #1 it's interesting and #2 we are trying to understand it
instead of just guessing. :smile:

 

>> nuvolare wrote"
>>Dueliing Website #4

Man, that's a GREAT paper.

So, if you look at the graphs, they start out at 1.0 on the left which means that the
sound-level in unchanged.

Then, the graph goes UP as you increase the frequency of the input, and the
sound gets louder, and LOUDER until it's HUGELY LOUD at the peak, and
then it gets quieter until it is again unchanged, AND THEN, it starts to get
quieter then the input sound level.

So, if the resonator is set to resonate at something like 1000 Hz, this could
actually WORK!!! Since at 3000 RPM and above we are generating
(I think) 6000 Hz pulses in the intake.

Thanks bunches. This really puts the "resonator" theory back in the running.