Drivetrain Question about CEL light
#1
06-28-2009 | 01:06 AM
Question about CEL light
So I have been reading a lot about how the MINI has a strong chance of throwing a code for installing a DP.My question is for those that have gotten them are you running catless or running a highflow? If you are running a highflow how does that effect the reading? Also I know on my Spec V that I had when I put on a catless header it did the same thing which was cured by a spacer and before that a dummy o2 sensor.
#3
06-28-2009 | 11:47 AM
It's pretty much just the Alta Downpipes that cause CELs or any cat-less downpipes. Exhaust Depot & now Riss Racing both have catted downpipes that are CEL-free.
Riss Racing has released an o2 sensor sim/fix that should be able to take care of the defective Alta DP's or their catless unit.
Spacers generally don't work w/ the new Mini, its ECM is a lot tighter (smarter) than you'll find on most other cars.
Riss Racing has released an o2 sensor sim/fix that should be able to take care of the defective Alta DP's or their catless unit.
Spacers generally don't work w/ the new Mini, its ECM is a lot tighter (smarter) than you'll find on most other cars.
#6
06-28-2009 | 03:24 PM
It's actually a double catted downpipe if you include the one after the 2nd o2 sensor location. The trouble is that it isn't a very high quality metallic cat in the downpipe section so most people get a p0420 fault (catalyst below efficiency). There are other faults that it can trigger, like when you use an extender to mask the poor efficiency.
The other big drawback of the Alta design is that it ONLY bolts up to one of their cat-backs. Riss Racing & Exhaust Depot both use oem fit/flanges so you can mix & match systems.
If you go the Alta route, I have one of their cat-backs taking up space in the back of our shop that I'd like to get rid of.
The other big drawback of the Alta design is that it ONLY bolts up to one of their cat-backs. Riss Racing & Exhaust Depot both use oem fit/flanges so you can mix & match systems.
If you go the Alta route, I have one of their cat-backs taking up space in the back of our shop that I'd like to get rid of.
#7
06-28-2009 | 07:12 PM
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#8
06-29-2009 | 05:58 AM
4th Gear
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 542
Likes: 0
From: Chandler, AZ
For reference here, my Alta catted DP produced a P0420 (cat efficiency too low) code, then adding an extender fixed that P0420 and caused P0141 (o2 sensor heater circuit malfunction).
Jeff
#9
06-29-2009 | 06:06 AM
A lot of us are waiting for the update from Riss about the O2 sensor hack in addition to news about their new cat-back system. It's been almost a week now without any new news. 
I think they are editing videos of the system but dang some of us just need a sneak peak and we'll be ready to buy!
I think they are editing videos of the system but dang some of us just need a sneak peak and we'll be ready to buy!
#11
07-02-2009 | 08:18 AM
5th Gear
Joined: Jun 2009
Posts: 749
Likes: 0
From: Hillsboro Oregon
Hey all!
Here is some great info on the Alta DP. The Catalytic converter we use is definitely a premium cat. Heres a post from ALTA2
"Alright, comments revolving around the ALTA R56 downpipes are getting a little out of control and I think we need to revisit some of the concerns people have.
Lets start with going back a couple years to 07. We got our R56 and built a catback and a downpipe for it, tested it, PROVED it (which no one else has really done to this day, except us on multiple occasions) then brought it to market. We had great success being the first with a 3” exhaust and great success with the HP and gains it made.
Our cat we used in our initial test is an off the shelf metallic converter. This worked very well on our car for a long time, but for production we decided to go with a special version of the cat that had about 2 times the amount of catalyst loaded on the core. This ensures that the cat will last longer than normal. This also adds huge cost to part, but we felt was worth it to ensure the cat lasted as long as possible.
Beginning of last year we started seeing CEL problems and started trying to figure it out. The obvious thing was the cat. There were customers we sent replacements out to, and it it only solved the problem for a week or so. We even had a customer (NITRO) we sent a couple to with no success. In sending these to him he found the hanger had cracked and was causing an exhaust leak. We thought this could be the problem. But after fixing this, it still got a PO420 code. We even had a couple of locals we did the same thing for hoping this would solve the CEL. After this, we decided to stop selling the downpipe completely until the problems were resolved. We sent off a few parts to the cat manufacturer (Carsound) to be tested. After weeks and weeks and weeks (some of you may remember this) they came back with their cat was ok.
After further researching we figure out it was an issue with an ECU reflash/ year of car. This is why our 07 R56 and early 08 R56 we had, NEVER had problems. Basically if you had an early 08 or any model that had the ECU reflash done it was going to have the PO420 code. It seemed like Mini narrowed up the parameters that say when the cat goes bad. At the time we had a mid year 08 R56 (one of 7 we have owned over the last 2 years) with the CEL problem and we tested an 02 sensor extender on it. We tried one then 2 and the CEL went away. So we offered this to a few customers with about 50% success rate. Later on as we had a few more R56’s we had the CEL problem no matter what we did.
Knowing that we have an ECU reflash on the way that WILL fix this problem, we decided to start selling the downpipe again (about a 4-5 month of downtime). We offered to customers with the CEL problems a large discount on this future product knowing it would get rid of the CEL, a return on the downpipe or the 02 sensor extenders. We thought this was an acceptable offer (as well as nearly every customer), and because the PO420 code doesn’t effect performance or warranty on the car, there was no concern driving around with it.
That along with a very important note on our site (basically saying your ALTA R56 DP will throw a CEL), we felt comfortable selling the part again. Because of the way we were selling it (telling people it will throw a CEL no matter what) we were also accepting of the fact, we would be selling a lot less. But not a big deal as eventually the ECU reflash product would be out and sales would pick back up.
So where we are today is that people are either forgetting that the ALTA DP will throw a CEL at some point, or we have started slipping with how we are selling the part. Really is us not being super proactive about how its sold. To help that out, we moved the special note about our DP throwing a CEL to the front page on the DP. This along with our customer service reps being reeducated on the CEL problem, I think we have solved the problem as best we can.
HOW CAN WE SOLVE THE PROBLEM!
I know some are thinking ALTA can solve the problem by looking at other people’s downpipes and figuring out why theirs doesn’t throw CEL’s. Its not a mystery why some systems are CEL free. There are 2 big factors that we could change to fix it, but we feel its not worth it. The first and easiest is to change the cat to a ceramic type cat. The “brick” in these cats have more Cells per inch, which means they clean the exhaust better, but also are much more restrictive. Or a different more restrictive side by side dual cat system. The problem with a dual cat system (like some make), is aligning the top and bottom cat so the cells in each “brick” line up. If they are even slightly rotated you just created even more restriction, which is bad for performance, but good for a no CEL situation. I can guarantee the twin cats are not lined up as this would be almost impossible to do.
The second factor is tubing size. WE could make the entire downpipe in 2.5” tubing which will also help with the CEL. But again, restriction. Our downpipe makes the HP it does, with the cat it has. We have proven this over and over again to be in the neighborhood of about 12WHP on a car with our 3” catback already installed. So lets say we add the more restrictive cat (weather ceramic or dual cat), that 12WHP could now be cut down 25%. Then lets say we step down to 2.5” tubing, and this is going to drop another 25% or more. While these are just educated guesses they are pretty reasonable. Now our downpipe would perform like others and make somewhere in the 5WHP range. Then is becomes a simple matter $/HP. For between $700-$800 dollars you get a part that makes maybe 5HP??? And is a complete PITA to install!
I’ll even throw out there that the 12WHP is with the front piece and rear piece together. IF both of those make 12WHP how much of that is actually from the front section……..
This is why we choose to keep DP the way it is. It makes decent Wheel HP, you can easily feel the difference with your butt dyno, and with our CEL warning in place, the customer can decide weather or not its worth the proven 12WHP. If the customer is concerned about the CEL, then we suggest to stick with the OEM downpipe and do just our catback exhaust.
Remember our downpipe results are with a 3” catback in place, not by them selves. If we made a DP that fit in place of the OEM DP, its not going to make even 12WHP it will be less by quite a bit. In the end, I may be killing some of the sales of the part (until our ECU flash is done) but we want to show we are not trying to pull a fast one on customers, or hide the fact our DP throws a CEL. It does, and there isn’t much we can reasonably do with out making the part even more expensive, or make it more restrictive and make less HP."
Hope this helps! Please let me know if I can be of any more help!
Here is some great info on the Alta DP. The Catalytic converter we use is definitely a premium cat. Heres a post from ALTA2
"Alright, comments revolving around the ALTA R56 downpipes are getting a little out of control and I think we need to revisit some of the concerns people have.
Lets start with going back a couple years to 07. We got our R56 and built a catback and a downpipe for it, tested it, PROVED it (which no one else has really done to this day, except us on multiple occasions) then brought it to market. We had great success being the first with a 3” exhaust and great success with the HP and gains it made.
Our cat we used in our initial test is an off the shelf metallic converter. This worked very well on our car for a long time, but for production we decided to go with a special version of the cat that had about 2 times the amount of catalyst loaded on the core. This ensures that the cat will last longer than normal. This also adds huge cost to part, but we felt was worth it to ensure the cat lasted as long as possible.
Beginning of last year we started seeing CEL problems and started trying to figure it out. The obvious thing was the cat. There were customers we sent replacements out to, and it it only solved the problem for a week or so. We even had a customer (NITRO) we sent a couple to with no success. In sending these to him he found the hanger had cracked and was causing an exhaust leak. We thought this could be the problem. But after fixing this, it still got a PO420 code. We even had a couple of locals we did the same thing for hoping this would solve the CEL. After this, we decided to stop selling the downpipe completely until the problems were resolved. We sent off a few parts to the cat manufacturer (Carsound) to be tested. After weeks and weeks and weeks (some of you may remember this) they came back with their cat was ok.
After further researching we figure out it was an issue with an ECU reflash/ year of car. This is why our 07 R56 and early 08 R56 we had, NEVER had problems. Basically if you had an early 08 or any model that had the ECU reflash done it was going to have the PO420 code. It seemed like Mini narrowed up the parameters that say when the cat goes bad. At the time we had a mid year 08 R56 (one of 7 we have owned over the last 2 years) with the CEL problem and we tested an 02 sensor extender on it. We tried one then 2 and the CEL went away. So we offered this to a few customers with about 50% success rate. Later on as we had a few more R56’s we had the CEL problem no matter what we did.
Knowing that we have an ECU reflash on the way that WILL fix this problem, we decided to start selling the downpipe again (about a 4-5 month of downtime). We offered to customers with the CEL problems a large discount on this future product knowing it would get rid of the CEL, a return on the downpipe or the 02 sensor extenders. We thought this was an acceptable offer (as well as nearly every customer), and because the PO420 code doesn’t effect performance or warranty on the car, there was no concern driving around with it.
That along with a very important note on our site (basically saying your ALTA R56 DP will throw a CEL), we felt comfortable selling the part again. Because of the way we were selling it (telling people it will throw a CEL no matter what) we were also accepting of the fact, we would be selling a lot less. But not a big deal as eventually the ECU reflash product would be out and sales would pick back up.
So where we are today is that people are either forgetting that the ALTA DP will throw a CEL at some point, or we have started slipping with how we are selling the part. Really is us not being super proactive about how its sold. To help that out, we moved the special note about our DP throwing a CEL to the front page on the DP. This along with our customer service reps being reeducated on the CEL problem, I think we have solved the problem as best we can.
HOW CAN WE SOLVE THE PROBLEM!
I know some are thinking ALTA can solve the problem by looking at other people’s downpipes and figuring out why theirs doesn’t throw CEL’s. Its not a mystery why some systems are CEL free. There are 2 big factors that we could change to fix it, but we feel its not worth it. The first and easiest is to change the cat to a ceramic type cat. The “brick” in these cats have more Cells per inch, which means they clean the exhaust better, but also are much more restrictive. Or a different more restrictive side by side dual cat system. The problem with a dual cat system (like some make), is aligning the top and bottom cat so the cells in each “brick” line up. If they are even slightly rotated you just created even more restriction, which is bad for performance, but good for a no CEL situation. I can guarantee the twin cats are not lined up as this would be almost impossible to do.
The second factor is tubing size. WE could make the entire downpipe in 2.5” tubing which will also help with the CEL. But again, restriction. Our downpipe makes the HP it does, with the cat it has. We have proven this over and over again to be in the neighborhood of about 12WHP on a car with our 3” catback already installed. So lets say we add the more restrictive cat (weather ceramic or dual cat), that 12WHP could now be cut down 25%. Then lets say we step down to 2.5” tubing, and this is going to drop another 25% or more. While these are just educated guesses they are pretty reasonable. Now our downpipe would perform like others and make somewhere in the 5WHP range. Then is becomes a simple matter $/HP. For between $700-$800 dollars you get a part that makes maybe 5HP??? And is a complete PITA to install!
I’ll even throw out there that the 12WHP is with the front piece and rear piece together. IF both of those make 12WHP how much of that is actually from the front section……..
This is why we choose to keep DP the way it is. It makes decent Wheel HP, you can easily feel the difference with your butt dyno, and with our CEL warning in place, the customer can decide weather or not its worth the proven 12WHP. If the customer is concerned about the CEL, then we suggest to stick with the OEM downpipe and do just our catback exhaust.
Remember our downpipe results are with a 3” catback in place, not by them selves. If we made a DP that fit in place of the OEM DP, its not going to make even 12WHP it will be less by quite a bit. In the end, I may be killing some of the sales of the part (until our ECU flash is done) but we want to show we are not trying to pull a fast one on customers, or hide the fact our DP throws a CEL. It does, and there isn’t much we can reasonably do with out making the part even more expensive, or make it more restrictive and make less HP."
Hope this helps! Please let me know if I can be of any more help!
#12
07-14-2009 | 08:41 AM
2nd Gear
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 107
Likes: 0
From: Portland, OR
[quote=ALTA_Jarid;2810727]Hey all!
After further researching we figure out it was an issue with an ECU reflash/ year of car. This is why our 07 R56 and early 08 R56 we had, NEVER had problems. Basically if you had an early 08 or any model that had the ECU reflash done it was going to have the PO420 code.
I want to correct the above information Jarid: I have an 07 R56 with the first generation ECU and have the P0420 code. Alta installed the downpipe and I reported the code to Alta within the warranty period. I would like to request that Alta supply me with the Riss Racing O2 sim once it is released rather than remove the downpipe (especially since I left my stock downpipe in Alta's shop
)
After further researching we figure out it was an issue with an ECU reflash/ year of car. This is why our 07 R56 and early 08 R56 we had, NEVER had problems. Basically if you had an early 08 or any model that had the ECU reflash done it was going to have the PO420 code.
I want to correct the above information Jarid: I have an 07 R56 with the first generation ECU and have the P0420 code. Alta installed the downpipe and I reported the code to Alta within the warranty period. I would like to request that Alta supply me with the Riss Racing O2 sim once it is released rather than remove the downpipe (especially since I left my stock downpipe in Alta's shop
)
#13
07-14-2009 | 08:57 AM
5th Gear
Joined: Jun 2009
Posts: 749
Likes: 0
From: Hillsboro Oregon
[QUOTE=Kirkland;2820670]
Hi Kirkland!
I'm not 100% familiar with your car/mods. Please PM me your phone number and I will give you a ring!
Hey all!
After further researching we figure out it was an issue with an ECU reflash/ year of car. This is why our 07 R56 and early 08 R56 we had, NEVER had problems. Basically if you had an early 08 or any model that had the ECU reflash done it was going to have the PO420 code.
I want to correct the above information Jarid: I have an 07 R56 with the first generation ECU and have the P0420 code. Alta installed the downpipe and I reported the code to Alta within the warranty period. I would like to request that Alta supply me with the Riss Racing O2 sim once it is released rather than remove the downpipe (especially since I left my stock downpipe in Alta's shop)
After further researching we figure out it was an issue with an ECU reflash/ year of car. This is why our 07 R56 and early 08 R56 we had, NEVER had problems. Basically if you had an early 08 or any model that had the ECU reflash done it was going to have the PO420 code.
I want to correct the above information Jarid: I have an 07 R56 with the first generation ECU and have the P0420 code. Alta installed the downpipe and I reported the code to Alta within the warranty period. I would like to request that Alta supply me with the Riss Racing O2 sim once it is released rather than remove the downpipe (especially since I left my stock downpipe in Alta's shop
)I'm not 100% familiar with your car/mods. Please PM me your phone number and I will give you a ring!
#14
07-14-2009 | 08:53 PM
I understand you're customer service & sales and you're here as an Alta rep, but don't insult our intelligence.
I am a certified master tech with many years of expierience, both emissions & engine performance. I have scopes, scan tools, and just about every other tool you can imagine. I also used to own the Alta Turbo-back system and I can safely say the Cat doesn't work. That some of the early ecu's might have been less sensitive to its deficiencies or that there might have been some variation in the quality from batch to batch, doesn't make the problem with your Cats any less real.
Other manufacturers are having no trouble making/selling downpipes with highflow metallic spun cats.
Alta needs to step up & offer a real fix or a recall for the downpipes.
I understand & have seen the disclaimer now posted on the product page, that's perfectly acceptable for new customers, but totally unacceptable for anyone who purchased prior to that or were lead to believe you had a real fix.
Blaming the car for being too complex, maybe Alta/Perrin should stick to the simpler Japanese/Subaru market.
#15
07-16-2009 | 09:02 AM
2nd Gear
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 107
Likes: 0
From: Portland, OR
[quote=n1tr0;2821376]Alright, seriously, don't repost ********.
I understand you're customer service & sales and you're here as an Alta rep, but don't insult our intelligence.
Alta needs to step up & offer a real fix or a recall for the downpipes.
I understand & have seen the disclaimer now posted on the product page, that's perfectly acceptable for new customers, but totally unacceptable for anyone who purchased prior to that or were lead to believe you had a real fix.
Yes, agreed. Alta, do something about those of us who want this problem fixed. Providing and installing the Riss Racing fix would be fine for my car. I have been waiting for a fix for the downpipe for over a year. I would never have bought the dp had I known it would permanently cause a CEL. I purchased the downpipe as part of an exchange after the Unichip and 3 harnesses did not work. I don't want to drive around with an "A OK" sticker over the CEL. Have Adam or Jeff call me next week, please. I'm the person who brings an occasional bag of coffee to Jeff.
I understand you're customer service & sales and you're here as an Alta rep, but don't insult our intelligence.
Alta needs to step up & offer a real fix or a recall for the downpipes.
I understand & have seen the disclaimer now posted on the product page, that's perfectly acceptable for new customers, but totally unacceptable for anyone who purchased prior to that or were lead to believe you had a real fix.
Yes, agreed. Alta, do something about those of us who want this problem fixed. Providing and installing the Riss Racing fix would be fine for my car. I have been waiting for a fix for the downpipe for over a year. I would never have bought the dp had I known it would permanently cause a CEL. I purchased the downpipe as part of an exchange after the Unichip and 3 harnesses did not work. I don't want to drive around with an "A OK" sticker over the CEL. Have Adam or Jeff call me next week, please. I'm the person who brings an occasional bag of coffee to Jeff.
#16
08-04-2009 | 03:41 PM
1st Gear
Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 18
Likes: 0
From: potomac river
Dont buy ALTA products
I agree also. My CEL has been on since day one and ALTA has been unresponsive for a fix. Do not buy their products. My last series of emails from them. "David,
I'm sorry about the CEL! Is the only code you are receiving PO420? I don't have any schematics for the wiring, sorry. You just happen to be one of the very few unlucky ones that our fix hasn't worked for. If you are interested, we are coming out with a new tune for your car soon that will get rid of the code permanently, and we will offer that to you at a very discounted price.
Chris Cone
Tech Services"
So buy more junk from them? Very discounted price? How about you fix it the first time. Please no BS about the tight specs. You guys are a sham.
I'm sorry about the CEL! Is the only code you are receiving PO420? I don't have any schematics for the wiring, sorry. You just happen to be one of the very few unlucky ones that our fix hasn't worked for. If you are interested, we are coming out with a new tune for your car soon that will get rid of the code permanently, and we will offer that to you at a very discounted price.
Chris Cone
Tech Services"
So buy more junk from them? Very discounted price? How about you fix it the first time. Please no BS about the tight specs. You guys are a sham.
#17
08-05-2009 | 02:28 AM
1st Gear
Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 18
Likes: 0
From: potomac river
to be fair lets see how long this takes
My reply
~~~~~~
Jerid,
yes it is the p0420 code 95% of the time. I have tried one, then two spacers with no joy. I was promised a new down pipe from Christina a year ago. I don't believe that there is no effect on performance. Car runs better and pulls harder with CEL out/reset. So how long do I have to wait? BTW I am an electronics engineer so if I had the schematic I could design a fix.
Thanks
David
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
First reported problem, June 2008
O2 extenders, Dec 08
"we are working on a "low cost" fix", Apr 2009
Gathering data, Aug 1009
~~~~~~
Jerid,
yes it is the p0420 code 95% of the time. I have tried one, then two spacers with no joy. I was promised a new down pipe from Christina a year ago. I don't believe that there is no effect on performance. Car runs better and pulls harder with CEL out/reset. So how long do I have to wait? BTW I am an electronics engineer so if I had the schematic I could design a fix.
Thanks
David
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
First reported problem, June 2008
O2 extenders, Dec 08
"we are working on a "low cost" fix", Apr 2009
Gathering data, Aug 1009
#20
09-14-2009 | 02:04 PM
4th Gear
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 542
Likes: 0
From: Chandler, AZ
Jeff
#21
09-14-2009 | 02:23 PM
5th Gear
Joined: Jun 2009
Posts: 749
Likes: 0
From: Hillsboro Oregon
I know you had a rather lengthy conversation with Jeff on the 29th when you were here at the Airshow event about this. I wasn't privy to all the information that was tossed back and forth but I do know Jeff gave you an option or two. Please PM me or call him directly to refresh your memory if you like. Thanks!
#22
09-14-2009 | 04:19 PM
1st Gear
Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 18
Likes: 0
From: potomac river
#23
09-14-2009 | 05:28 PM
Not standing behind anyone here but I am pretty sure that the is a disclaimer that states that these products are for offroad use only and since you can't "technically" drive this on the road then why would they fix it. Cause on an off road application it doesn't matter if it throws a code or not. But if the company stated that they were going to comp you in some way then they should
#25
09-14-2009 | 05:47 PM
Not standing behind anyone here but I am pretty sure that the is a disclaimer that states that these products are for offroad use only and since you can't "technically" drive this on the road then why would they fix it. Cause on an off road application it doesn't matter if it throws a code or not. But if the company stated that they were going to comp you in some way then they should