Theta, in your opinion, do the Stage 1 or Stage 2 tunes that NM offer right now benefit at all from running 100octane?

I ask because I currently have Stage 1 but am going to Stage 2 next week. 100 octane unleaded is available near me. I'm just wondering if I would see any gains from it at all (not really expecting to).

 

You will, without a doubt, need to talk specifically to the tuner about a custom 100-octane tune.

Same with E85, spraying meth, etc.

 

Okay so now that we're back on track about ETG's issue with the DP, not quoted but a little bit in my words from what jag told me, the reason for the stock DP being better than an aftermarket is because of the spool being quicker compared to a high-flow or catless. But he said the aftermarket DP's could produce more power once the guy he tuned who has the aftermarket DP but is waiting to see if any issues occur. Hopefully that makes enough sense, so pretty much I will know exactly how the guy Gabriel is doing by hopefully this summer or end of it.

Regardless, as much as I love my air intake, I think ill live with the stock air box IMO. I feel much more safe with a guy like Jags from the U.K. Touching my ECU cause he's done many MINIs.

 

I was told the same thing today by someone at ETG (not Jags). Honestly, it makes no sense to me.

A less restrictive DP is going to clear a greater volume of exhaust gasses from the turbine than a more restrictive DP. Less gas after the turbine means there will be less pressure after the turbine. Less pressure after the turbine will mean that the turbine wheel won't have to spin as fast to clear the same volume of gas as it did before.

So, with a high-flow DP, a turbine won't have to spin as fast to clear the same volume of gas as it would with the factory DP. Since power partly a function of clearing gases from the turbine, a turbo with an aftermarket DP will produce the same amount of power with less RPM than that same turbo with the factory DP.

If the turbine doesn't have to spin as fast to make the same power, theoretically it can get to that power more quickly than a turbine that has to spin faster to produce that same amount of power. I would think the turbine with a high-flow downpipe would have perception of "quicker spool."

This, of course, is not to mention that the higher pressure gradient created by the factory downpipe would seemingly create a breaking force on the turbine, adding some resistance to its ability to get up to speed. Think of trying to accelerate on a bike while holding the break down a bit. It's going to be harder to get that wheel up to 500 RPMs than if you let go of the brake.

As for the intake, Rob, have you considered getting a DoS intake? It would seem to give you the sounds of an open intake but with the benefits of a sealed air box like the factory box. Jags/ETG might not be familiar with the design, but I'm very sure they would approve if they saw how it worked. If I had an R56/57/58/59, I would be all over the DoS like white on rice. Sadly, we R60 owners are shut out.

 

I agree on the DP issue, but I think once he sees the benefits that the Gabriel is doing for him(testing the DP) then at that point he'll probably say slap it on. Give it a couple of months if you do decide to go with ETG as I plan to get ASAP.

Hujan, as for the intake, I trust this guy Jags already since he's correct that all cone filters create hot air, I might consider the DoS as long as Jags approves of it once he does research on the product but until then I'm going to put my stock air box back on and possibly go for the dry filter Way carries on his site, if ETG doesn't like the DoS product.

I have made up my mind on the tune mostly in part cause NM told me that they can't go up to a Stage 2 on the auto because surging issues on the trans. I rather go with ETG cause they can provide me 40hp/60tq with no problems and my transmission can handle it easily. I mean the guy had done a lot of amazing exotic cars, plus after looking at his site and Facebook page, I fell in love even more! Well others might not be so patient but by May, I will have his tune once I install the exhaust.

 

How do you know they don't have to de-tune things for us autos? Did you ask Jags? (That sounds argumentative, but it's a genuine question. I forgot to ask the guy I talked to today.)

The four strikes against RENNtech for me are:

(1) Having to ship the ECU to Florida

(2) $900 for the tune

(3) Pushing the power band up on automatics so the tune is not active until >4,000 RPMs

(4) Needing 93 octane to get the benefits

If ETG can tune the car so I can get some more power lower in the rev range, that would be great. I am all about mods to get me more power/boost around town.

 

Nope, he told me no issues, and they wouldn't de-tune or have us not reach the power til later. The guy knew what he was talking about when he said they were the first to tune these MINIs with N18 and that other companies have tried to copy their software but haven't been able to. He said if your a tuner, than you can tune anything and any year. I completely agree, if you have the software and your the best out there then you should be able to tune a 2011, 2012, and 2013 MINI, no matter what make. I literally was on the phone with the guy for 40 mins asking thousands of questions, and he simply had an answer for everything.

In the end, I loved what he said, that he prefers auto over manuals especially with his tune cause he believes an auto can shift quicker then a person in a manual(daily driving skills, not expert drivers).

So Hujan, I believe this guy is legit, and I'm glad I spoke to them as they made up my mind. He said you can just put a FMIC, stock intake, and if I want a DP back exhaust. Nothing else, unless I wanted a DP at a later point this summer. As for DV, and other items I wanted, he said its a waste of money.

Also I will call again tomorrow to ask him about the DoS, colder plugs, and does it matter what type of FMIC we run, he told me he generally tells people to use the Forge but Helix is slightly similar to it, so I don't think it would matter. I will post back tomorrow evening for the answers.

 

Cool, thanks for the gathering the info, Rob. These guys are 2 hours from my house, so I'd love to make this work if possible. Very interested in hearing how you like the tune. Be sure to emphasize that the DoS is completely sealed and not open to the engine bay. It's basically the factory airbox but with a cone instead of a panel and plumbed to the firewall to pull air through the cowl.

 

I've just kinda skimmed the last few posts, but how is it that this Jags person knows nothing of DoS but is some MINI expert? Do we know anyone with an ETG tune? Their numbers seem a bit suspect, especially claiming no need for a DP (among other things). Seems a little too good much like that no-name part on eBay that is 1/4 the price of a known part.

Tony Checkraise, I can tell you that the NM stage 2 tune seems to have raised the redline to at least 7500. I got that high before a shift change with no issue. I'm not sure if I'm going to make a habit of it though... You will LOVE stage 2 and start saving for an LSD!

 

Take a look at their website, all the information is there about them. He's from the U.K. And he works on amazing cars, YouTube videos suggest, this guy is legit and his website with some customer feedback. I've spoken to a friend of mine in LA and he told me a lot of MINIs in Cali in the southern part go to ETG. How can anyone bash the guy on this forum if they don't know his work. Everyone gave NM, RennTech, and whoever else a shot, so I will take a shot and test it myself.

I will definitely Dyno it to make sure the numbers pop out. But after some AMG's, R8's, and BMW's dyno videos and acceleration, I'm quite intrigued.

 

Easy... Didn't bash, just asked a question...

 

Didn't mean it in a rude way Mel. But my point was to give this a guy a chance to prove what he can do. Like I stated, I will take the plunge to see what he has to offer. And when that day is approaching in a month or so, I will report back on his tune for others to hear about it.

 

Looking forward to it! Did he happen to mention if he has to physically alter the ECU to tune it? I am just wondering for warranty purposes if there is any physical evidence.

 

Could you elaborate on this? I was planning on sending my ECU to NM early next week and I have a 2011 auto R56. I was not aware that that they could not do a stage 2 tune for me.

 

Some of this is correct. I have a background in tuning turbo vehicles myself. In general, less post-turbo restriction allows the turbine to spool faster and usually for longer(dependent on wastegate duty cycle tables for initial and max).

With this less restriction, upping the boost to a certain limit(based on the turbo's compressor map) will allow for more CFM since the turbine can spool higher and faster since there's less restriction post-turbo...in the end, making power is a combination of tuning factors.

 

I will ask later today when I make a second call for other questions I have and others have. I will post back after 3pm today.

 

I was told by Jerry when speaking to him, that their tune would work perfectly fine with a Stage one but mind you that's like 212hp/227tq on that stage 1 from them. He might be able to push those numbers just a tad higher but because "auto trans can't handle the power" and surging starts to be an issue. That's one of the reasons I chose to go to ETG, Jags said he could do it no problem, and he prefers the auto trans MINIs to drive in his words. Nothing wrong with manuals, I got love for them too(used to own one). But I'm happy he can produce 221hp/252tq on my auto. Give Jerry a call and see what he can do but he told me they won't even try basically to make the Stage 2 work on the auto MINIs.

ETG to me, takes the win. I don't care if I don't have my cone filter anymore, as long as my exhaust can work on there and possibly add a DP later down the road in the summer. Give both a call actually and see what pro and cons you love about each.

 

After talking to Jags at ETG again today, so I will answer a couple other questions.

As for the DoS intake, you could run the tune with it but prefers the stock panel box instead since the tune is pretty aggressive. Also, you could run colder plugs but he said you don't have to waste more money.

Pretty much all you need is the panel filter, FMIC, custom exhaust or any other catback exhaust, and his tune. Nothing else is needed.

Like I said before, this guy knows his stuff and I am going with his tune. When I head to Cali this week I might go ahead and stop by his shop. Anyone else that wants to head by there in Beverly Hills, he said don't be shy, come check his stuff out and all the cars he works on. He can do 2013s with the late make of August. Any other questions, please shoot.

 

I just confirmed with NM that they are placing their stage 2 tunes for automatic R56s on hold until they work out the bug/issue that is occuring with boost inconsistency/variability from 1st to 2nd gear. They hope to get it squared away soon, but until then they are not offering the stage 2 tune for the automatic R56s.

 

Does anyone else feel like there is something missing to this equation? I love the idea of extra hp for less $$ (bolt ons) but from what I gather, either ETG is really as good as some are saying and NM is a sub par tuner, or ETG is making false claims somewhere along the line. I'm not really making a judgement either way but does someone else see another scenario where both of these are false?

 

NM Engineering and ETG do seem to have a number of conflicting perspectives/positions, e.g, significance of the restriction at the DP, value of a CAI, need for a non-stock catback exhaust, ability of the automatic transmission to withstand higher hp/torque output from tuning . . . .

 

Forgot to mention, since ETG works closely with MINIs dealerships in his area and elsewhere, he said he'd update my ECU to what the R56 and other ECU platforms that are in the cars. Which sounds fantastic IMO. No other tuner will do that, unless I missed something along the way.

I'm not trying to be a party pooper, but do the research guys. Call, search YouTube for the tuners, ask people who got the tunes, and check ETG's website for all the cars they do plus MINIs. They have plenty of dyno charts. The reason I chose Jags tune over others was because he knows all the European cars very well. I liked him and Evolve just because their European based.

This is IMO, I'm gonna trust the guy who works on imports only and is telling me don't waste my money on other products I don't need. No offense to any other tuner but he explained his stuff and I didn't even have to ask for more information. Unlike other places I called(not going to name the companies). But seriously, you guys are sitting here skeptical, give ETG a call. They'll answer all your questions. If NM can pop out their Stage 2, I would have done it for my auto but it's not gonna kill me for another $100 and squeeze out every last inch in the N18 MCS.

Any other tuners, since rarely RMW can be reached? Not counting ETG, NM, and RennTech.

 

That's actually not the first time I've heard a tuner say just get a panel filter and FMIC and you're good to go really. And I really respect the tuner I'm some what quoting here.

If the folks can get the DP issue resolved then ETG seems like a viable option. Because catless dp's definitely allow the turbo to spool quicker, and worker easier.
I've seen the cars they work on...so no doubt they must have some knowledge.

 

I agree there is conflicting information, but let's clear some things up:

Benefit of open filter

There is a split of opinion here. NM endorses an open filter; ETG advocates the box. NM tends to be in the minority on this. I believe RennTech also prefers the factory air box. And while I very much doubt Jerry would steer people wrong just to make a buck, one has to give some recognition to the fact that NM also sells the intake setup they recommend for the tune.

Auto transmission

I think this is a tuning issue more than a durability issue. I doubt very much that the OEM auto transmission could not physically handle the extra HP and torque. Things are engineered with a factor of safety. If the OEM transmission is designed to handle 181 HP and 192 TQ, then it is probably built to handle much more just to be safe. I recall an article where a MINI designer explained that the Countryman AWD transmission can handle 600 torque (300 front axle, 300 rear), even though we know that is never gonna happen.

I think the bigger issue is keeping the ECU-controlled transmission from freaking out from the torque and HP since it would not expect to see that kind of force. Thus, it does not seem inherently suspect that ETG might have found a way around that but NM has not. After all, ETG can tune post-02/2012 cars but NM cannot.

Downpipe

Here is where ETG is definitely in the minority. To be clear, I don't think ETG is saying that downpipes don't make more power as theoretical matter. I think they are saying that they cause boost spikes on their tune. If they figure out how to map the tune to handle the extra boost potential that comes from a DP, they will likely report that that map offers even greater gains than their current map. What I find odd is that they don't already know how to account for that in their tune. That is a little bizarre, I'll admit.

So when you look at it, I think the only real difference of opinion is the open filter, which is true of all of us gear heads as a whole: Some people swear the extra flow from an open filter cancels out the hotter air from the engine bay, others swear they lose low end and prefer a sealed setup. More than anything, I think the difference of opinion is due to the fact that the difference between the two is negligible. If it were obvious which is better it would be settled. EVERYONE agrees that a bigger intercooler is a must, for example.

The one thing that kind of has me concerned about ETG is its almost like a whatever-you-want-to-hear situation. You have an auto? No problem, I can tune it. You don't have a downpipe yet? No problem, it's actually easier for me to tune without it. And so on. I'm not saying that Jags/ETG is being dishonest, but it make you wonder a bit.

Also, while I'm ranting, the fact that ETG tunes a lot of expensive cars does nothing for me. A lot of the guys who buy those expensive cars a rich guys who know next to nothing about performance modifications, tuning, etc. They just want the "in" car (Aston Martin, M5, Porsche, AMG, etc.), buy it, then hear about a guy who tunes expensive cars and head over. Having lived in SoCal for my entire life, I can tell you that LA is full of rich playboys who just take their expensive car to the popular guy who can give them whatever popular mod they heard about. Again, not saying this is automatically the case with ETG, but the mere fact they tune expensive sports cars is not much evidence they know what they're talking about.

Bottom line: Jags is either very, very good at what he does, or is full of it. I'm honestly not sure which.

 

I am skeptical as well, but I am furiously trying to find disappointed customers on the web, and cannot.