Drivetrain Opinions and Question About Mods (N18)
#26
01-03-2013, 03:52 PM
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Well.....
Thanks for destroying my cute three word response.
Kudos for reading that long of a government document that I know had to be extremely dry (I know... I work for the gov't)!
For better or worse, I stick with my Ak Delete-R. If and when a code pops (every other week or so), it goes away within 5 miles if that long.
Great Thread!!!
Thanks for destroying my cute three word response.
Kudos for reading that long of a government document that I know had to be extremely dry (I know... I work for the gov't)!
For better or worse, I stick with my Ak Delete-R. If and when a code pops (every other week or so), it goes away within 5 miles if that long.
Great Thread!!!
It's no problem to me, the NAM community has been a wealth of information for me from before I even bought my MINI. It was instrumental in the decision to buy an MCS, and I'm glad I could give back a little bit at a time.
That being said, I'm still frugal. I'm tighter than two coats of paint.
So if the 10 dollar spacer works, I'm super sold!
#28
01-03-2013, 07:54 PM
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It's hard to notice a difference and low-RPM/low-load/cruise situations. Get more aggressive, it gets louder. I like it, it's a nice sound.
The pop and burble is sport mode is more noticeable too.
#29
01-03-2013, 08:20 PM
#30
01-12-2013, 06:02 PM
Tony, do you have a link to the o2 sensor spacer you used? I have two types (neither installed yet):
1) This one: http://www.amsperformance.com/cart/A...or-Spacer.html
2) 18 mm spark plug non-foulers
1) This one: http://www.amsperformance.com/cart/A...or-Spacer.html
2) 18 mm spark plug non-foulers
#32
01-12-2013, 06:44 PM
Hey guys,
I've had my 2012 MCS for a few months now and I've been quite busy tinkering around.
So far I have:
NM Intake
Forge BOV Spacer
NM ECU Tune
BSH Lower Engine Mount
Evolve Catless Downpipe mated to a stock exhaust (soon to be replaced)
I just installed the downpipe last night and now I've hit a fork in the road.
Here in Illinois, I will not have to go for emissions test (OBD scan/no visual) for another 18 months. BUT that nasty little CEL I'm getting from having no primary cat is bothering me already, and it's only been 24 hours.
From what I gather, I have two basic routes I can go.
1)Akrapovic Delete-R (Expensive)
2)O2 Spacer/Non-Fouler (Cheap)
The question I have here is one of time and functionality. I work, a lot. I'm out of town a ton, I have no garage and very scarce access (distance related) to the one at my mother's house which houses all my tools. I'm not trying to do this twice, or over again, or to be in there fooling around more often than I need to be.
So, does anyone have the spacer/non-fouler method installed and working on an N18 equipped R56?
I know that's a broad question, but I've searched and searched and I've done nothing but come up with mixed reviews about it sometimes working but sometimes a CEL comes on and goes right back off or blah blah blah whatever.
That being said, I'm willing to spend the money on the Delete-R if the thing is going to work the first time and as intended.
Purely to convey my level of seriousness with this little bugger, by spring I plan to have an FMIC installed along with the remainder of exhaust system being replaced by something much more ridiculous by my girlfriend's standards (DDM Works?) followed closely by the Stage 2 Tune from Jerry and the guys at NM. I've already got my eyes on the OS Giken clutch setup and a whole lot of suspension/braking related goodies. Money pit. 
Thanks for reading and if any of you are in the Chicagoland area and want to cruise. PM me or look for me on the street! I'm kinda hard to miss.
I've had my 2012 MCS for a few months now and I've been quite busy tinkering around.
So far I have:
NM Intake
Forge BOV Spacer
NM ECU Tune
BSH Lower Engine Mount
Evolve Catless Downpipe mated to a stock exhaust (soon to be replaced)
I just installed the downpipe last night and now I've hit a fork in the road.
Here in Illinois, I will not have to go for emissions test (OBD scan/no visual) for another 18 months. BUT that nasty little CEL I'm getting from having no primary cat is bothering me already, and it's only been 24 hours.
From what I gather, I have two basic routes I can go.
1)Akrapovic Delete-R (Expensive)
2)O2 Spacer/Non-Fouler (Cheap)
The question I have here is one of time and functionality. I work, a lot. I'm out of town a ton, I have no garage and very scarce access (distance related) to the one at my mother's house which houses all my tools. I'm not trying to do this twice, or over again, or to be in there fooling around more often than I need to be.
So, does anyone have the spacer/non-fouler method installed and working on an N18 equipped R56?
I know that's a broad question, but I've searched and searched and I've done nothing but come up with mixed reviews about it sometimes working but sometimes a CEL comes on and goes right back off or blah blah blah whatever.
That being said, I'm willing to spend the money on the Delete-R if the thing is going to work the first time and as intended.
Purely to convey my level of seriousness with this little bugger, by spring I plan to have an FMIC installed along with the remainder of exhaust system being replaced by something much more ridiculous by my girlfriend's standards (DDM Works?)
followed closely by the Stage 2 Tune from Jerry and the guys at NM. I've already got my eyes on the OS Giken clutch setup and a whole lot of suspension/braking related goodies. Money pit. Thanks for reading and if any of you are in the Chicagoland area and want to cruise. PM me or look for me on the street! I'm kinda hard to miss.
IMO, keep the cat or get a free flow cat coupled with a 3" piped custom done or decent manufacturer cat back exhaust in the place of the OEM one......Best thing for Turbo engines is to breathe. And if you can get that done with no CEL's all the better.
#33
01-12-2013, 06:58 PM
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Tony, do you have a link to the o2 sensor spacer you used? I have two types (neither installed yet):
1) This one: http://www.amsperformance.com/cart/A...or-Spacer.html
2) 18 mm spark plug non-foulers
1) This one: http://www.amsperformance.com/cart/A...or-Spacer.html
2) 18 mm spark plug non-foulers
I think option number one you have will work with the middle sized orifice installed, as that is about the same as the one I have. I'm unsure about the non-foulers.
I have had the CEL come back on and go off twice since I have installed the spacer. It is currently off. I think I have narrowed it down to temperature.
Each time the CEL came on, it was cold outside and I was on the highway cruising at decent speed. I think what is happening is that the cold air is cooling down the rear o2 until it won't read properly and throws the code. When it gets warmer than about 40 degrees, or if I really whoop on the car pretty hard and keep the exhaust hot, the light goes off.
I will have a more solid conclusion when the weather in the area (Chicago) gets consistently warmer. I expect it the light to stay off if the sensor can stay warm.
#34
01-12-2013, 07:09 PM
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First off, the cat is a Federal mandate not state one...so state inspection is the least of the worry. Something in the area of a $25,000 fine for a shop to modify or owner to have done so.
IMO, keep the cat or get a free flow cat coupled with a 3" piped custom done or decent manufacturer cat back exhaust in the place of the OEM one......Best thing for Turbo engines is to breathe. And if you can get that done with no CEL's all the better.
Therefore, the fine is the same $25,000 for installing a cat-less downpipe or an Akrapovic/Milltek high-flow unit.
If the fine/crime is the same, might as well just get rid of it all together as long as you can keep the CEL off to pass OBD inspections on your local level, which I am doing.
#35
01-12-2013, 08:42 PM
Not sure if anyone has tried one of these guys on any newer model MINIs, but I never had a CEL with a 3" DP that had 100 cell cat on my last car during the nearly 10k miles it was untuned:
http://store.42draftdesigns.com/O2-S...cer_p_306.html
It has some adjustability to get the spacing just right. I didn't have any trouble with it being there during emissions testing either, which included a visual inspection.
Regarding legalities, the federal tampering prohibition is contained in section 203(a)(3) of the Clean Air Act (Act), 42 U.S.C. 7522(a)(3). Section 203(a)(3)(A) of the Act prohibits any person from removing or rendering inoperative any device or element of design installed on or in any motor vehicle in compliance with regulations under Title II of the Act (i.e., regulations requiring certification that vehicles meet federal emissions standards). The maximum civil penalty for a violation of this section by a manufacturer or dealer is $25,000; for any other person, $2,500. Accordingly, any change from the original certified configuration of a vehicle or engine, or the manufacture or sale of a non-original equipment aftermarket part or system could be considered a violation of section 203(a)(3) of the Act. This would include modifications to the fuel delivery system. (source)
Most performance modifications beyond a catback exhaust or intake violate these laws. They even go further to cover anyone manufacturing parts intended to defeat emissions controls. Tough stuff.
--Matt
http://store.42draftdesigns.com/O2-S...cer_p_306.html
It has some adjustability to get the spacing just right. I didn't have any trouble with it being there during emissions testing either, which included a visual inspection.
Regarding legalities, the federal tampering prohibition is contained in section 203(a)(3) of the Clean Air Act (Act), 42 U.S.C. 7522(a)(3). Section 203(a)(3)(A) of the Act prohibits any person from removing or rendering inoperative any device or element of design installed on or in any motor vehicle in compliance with regulations under Title II of the Act (i.e., regulations requiring certification that vehicles meet federal emissions standards). The maximum civil penalty for a violation of this section by a manufacturer or dealer is $25,000; for any other person, $2,500. Accordingly, any change from the original certified configuration of a vehicle or engine, or the manufacture or sale of a non-original equipment aftermarket part or system could be considered a violation of section 203(a)(3) of the Act. This would include modifications to the fuel delivery system. (source)
Most performance modifications beyond a catback exhaust or intake violate these laws. They even go further to cover anyone manufacturing parts intended to defeat emissions controls. Tough stuff.
--Matt
Last edited by mattkosem; 01-12-2013 at 08:51 PM.
#38
01-12-2013, 09:07 PM
Care to elaborate on that? Am I missing some important detail here? If the sensor is at the proper temperature, and is seeing the expected amount of oxygen, why could it not work? Many many people use parts like this on tons of cars, even new ones, without issues. What sort of technical black magic is MINI employing on these cars that makes it completely impossible for them to work? Some cars are more finicky than others, and need additional tricks (steel wool to slow exhaust flow, etc.) for them to work, but they do work for lots and lots of people.
Are you saying this based on personal experience with this product, or others that are similarly designed (O2 spacer, wayne angle block, etc.)? If so, which products have you tried and with which tweaks? I've seen comments like this on other forums, and also seen people (myself included) manage to successfully implement them without seeing a single CEL. Heck, I even saw all readiness codes on my GTI. I'm not talking about a short period of time either, it was nearly a year with temperatures ranging from below 0F to nearly 100F.
--Matt
Are you saying this based on personal experience with this product, or others that are similarly designed (O2 spacer, wayne angle block, etc.)? If so, which products have you tried and with which tweaks? I've seen comments like this on other forums, and also seen people (myself included) manage to successfully implement them without seeing a single CEL. Heck, I even saw all readiness codes on my GTI. I'm not talking about a short period of time either, it was nearly a year with temperatures ranging from below 0F to nearly 100F.
--Matt
Last edited by mattkosem; 01-12-2013 at 09:17 PM.
#40
01-12-2013, 09:16 PM
That doesn't really answer my question. Again, I've seen this line many times before. There are plenty of nay sayers when it comes to products like these, and many people saying they don't work after having reportedly tried them, regardless of the brand of the car. Yet people with the same model cars do manage to use them successfully. These devices aren't fool proof, and almost always require several adjustments before they work properly. It seems unreasonable that they would simply not work at all, even if they only keep it off most of the time.
So, I ask again, can you elaborate on the technical details that would prevent them from working on these cars? Is the sensor reading more than temperature and oxygen? No offense intended here. This is strictly academic. A search reveals complaints about non-foulers and spacers not working, but I haven't come across anyone with much apparent tenacity on the matter.
--Matt
So, I ask again, can you elaborate on the technical details that would prevent them from working on these cars? Is the sensor reading more than temperature and oxygen? No offense intended here. This is strictly academic. A search reveals complaints about non-foulers and spacers not working, but I haven't come across anyone with much apparent tenacity on the matter.
--Matt
Last edited by mattkosem; 01-12-2013 at 09:39 PM.
#41
01-12-2013, 09:20 PM
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Not sure if anyone has tried one of these guys on any newer model MINIs, but I never had a CEL with a 3" DP that had 100 cell cat on my last car during the nearly 10k miles it was untuned:
...The maximum civil penalty for a violation of this section by a manufacturer or dealer is $25,000; for any other person, $2,500.
Most performance modifications beyond a catback exhaust or intake violate these laws. They even go further to cover anyone manufacturing parts intended to defeat emissions controls. Tough stuff.
--Matt
...The maximum civil penalty for a violation of this section by a manufacturer or dealer is $25,000; for any other person, $2,500.
Most performance modifications beyond a catback exhaust or intake violate these laws. They even go further to cover anyone manufacturing parts intended to defeat emissions controls. Tough stuff.
--Matt
I have an o2 spacer on my 2012 MCS with a catless downpipe and its working to keep the CEL off. It's finicky, but like I said in my post earlier today, I think it's Chicago winter's temperature cooling down the now spaced rear o2 too much. It's been off for several days now.
To repeat myself, I really appreciate everyone's input on all this random stuff here. It's a wealth of information and the experience of all of us MINI owners will all probably differ.
#42
01-12-2013, 09:23 PM
#43
01-12-2013, 11:44 PM
UPDATE: Installed the 02 spacer and after about a week of driving in different conditions, the check engine light has gone off on it's own.
After it taking about 80 miles over 2 days for the CEL to come on after removing the catalyst, I expected at least that amount of driving to be done before the light would clear itself (if it were going to). During the time, I did some research.
As of the 2010 model year, all vehicles sold in the US market must have ECU's capable of recording Diagnostic Trouble Codes (DTCs) in a new category called "Permanent DTC"
I read through a lot of the law itself which can be found here: http://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/CFR-201...c86-010-18.pdf
The definition the law uses for "Permanent DTC" is as follows:
"Permanent DTC means a DTC that corresponds to a MIL-on DTC and is stored in non-volatile random access memory (NVRAM). A permanent DTC can only be erased by the OBD system itself and cannot be erased through human interaction with the OBD system or any onboard computer."
These Permanent DTCs seem to only apply to emissions related trouble codes. Furthermore, the (66-page) document goes on to elaborate the parameters required to turn the CEL off and clear the code. From what I understand, it takes many more drive cycles to clear the DTC than it previously did. It also does nothing to describe the drive cycle requirements.
Being that all N18 MINI's are newer than 2010 model year, they would all have this programming in their ECU. For most people, they probably don't complete enough "drive cycles" to meet the parameters to clear the DTC in even a month's worth of driving. This would explain why some people might claim that the 02 Spacers do not work to clear the code/light in their N18 equipped MINI. They just simply are not driving enough.
It took almost 200 miles of driving after installing the 02 spacer for my CEL to clear itself and turn off. I am unaware of the exact 'drive cycle' that the ECU is looking to happen before it runs its checks, and it would seem you have to do a few (at least 2) before it would clear itself.
Hope this helps anyone thinking about using an O2 Spacer on their N18 Equipped MINI.
After it taking about 80 miles over 2 days for the CEL to come on after removing the catalyst, I expected at least that amount of driving to be done before the light would clear itself (if it were going to). During the time, I did some research.
As of the 2010 model year, all vehicles sold in the US market must have ECU's capable of recording Diagnostic Trouble Codes (DTCs) in a new category called "Permanent DTC"
I read through a lot of the law itself which can be found here: http://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/CFR-201...c86-010-18.pdf
The definition the law uses for "Permanent DTC" is as follows:
"Permanent DTC means a DTC that corresponds to a MIL-on DTC and is stored in non-volatile random access memory (NVRAM). A permanent DTC can only be erased by the OBD system itself and cannot be erased through human interaction with the OBD system or any onboard computer."
These Permanent DTCs seem to only apply to emissions related trouble codes. Furthermore, the (66-page) document goes on to elaborate the parameters required to turn the CEL off and clear the code. From what I understand, it takes many more drive cycles to clear the DTC than it previously did. It also does nothing to describe the drive cycle requirements.
Being that all N18 MINI's are newer than 2010 model year, they would all have this programming in their ECU. For most people, they probably don't complete enough "drive cycles" to meet the parameters to clear the DTC in even a month's worth of driving. This would explain why some people might claim that the 02 Spacers do not work to clear the code/light in their N18 equipped MINI. They just simply are not driving enough.
It took almost 200 miles of driving after installing the 02 spacer for my CEL to clear itself and turn off. I am unaware of the exact 'drive cycle' that the ECU is looking to happen before it runs its checks, and it would seem you have to do a few (at least 2) before it would clear itself.
Hope this helps anyone thinking about using an O2 Spacer on their N18 Equipped MINI.
scott
#44
01-12-2013, 11:49 PM
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there is another condition that can cause a fail on a state smog test, the check engine light can be off, but there can be a condition called "not ready" stored ... this can only be seen with a reader as a "not ready" does not light the check engine light ... in illinois, a "not ready" is a fail
scott
I am aware of the "not ready" status situation. The o2 readiness is usually read as "not ready" when the code/CEL has been reset with a scanner. I did not reset the light after installing the spacer, the light went off on its own, which leads me to believe it ran the tests again and saw a passing condition.
That being said, this has grabbed my interest. I'm wondering what is stored (if anything). I will scan for codes and get back to you guys tomorrow.
#45
01-13-2013, 07:11 AM
Scott,
I am aware of the "not ready" status situation. The o2 readiness is usually read as "not ready" when the code/CEL has been reset with a scanner. I did not reset the light after installing the spacer, the light went off on its own, which leads me to believe it ran the tests again and saw a passing condition.
That being said, this has grabbed my interest. I'm wondering what is stored (if anything). I will scan for codes and get back to you guys tomorrow.
I am aware of the "not ready" status situation. The o2 readiness is usually read as "not ready" when the code/CEL has been reset with a scanner. I did not reset the light after installing the spacer, the light went off on its own, which leads me to believe it ran the tests again and saw a passing condition.
That being said, this has grabbed my interest. I'm wondering what is stored (if anything). I will scan for codes and get back to you guys tomorrow.
Readiness is not a simple yes/no condition. Each tracked component reports whether or not it is ready.
--Matt
Last edited by mattkosem; 01-13-2013 at 07:21 AM.
#46
01-13-2013, 07:28 AM
Scott,
I am aware of the "not ready" status situation. The o2 readiness is usually read as "not ready" when the code/CEL has been reset with a scanner. I did not reset the light after installing the spacer, the light went off on its own, which leads me to believe it ran the tests again and saw a passing condition.
That being said, this has grabbed my interest. I'm wondering what is stored (if anything). I will scan for codes and get back to you guys tomorrow.
I am aware of the "not ready" status situation. The o2 readiness is usually read as "not ready" when the code/CEL has been reset with a scanner. I did not reset the light after installing the spacer, the light went off on its own, which leads me to believe it ran the tests again and saw a passing condition.
That being said, this has grabbed my interest. I'm wondering what is stored (if anything). I will scan for codes and get back to you guys tomorrow.
that both the check engine light went out AND that you have no "not ready" codes using the spacer is what needs to known
scott
#47
02-07-2013, 12:00 PM
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Small Update:
Went in for my first oil change since the cat less downpipe and tune. I didn't know exactly what I should expect from the service department.
To my surprise, they were all pretty cool. The technician that did the oil change even left a note on my dashboard letting me know that I should check out Way Motor Works if I needed any help with my build. Haha. Everyone was cool and they seemed more happy to see someone enjoying their car as opposed to being pissed that it wasn't factory.
Went in for my first oil change since the cat less downpipe and tune. I didn't know exactly what I should expect from the service department.
To my surprise, they were all pretty cool. The technician that did the oil change even left a note on my dashboard letting me know that I should check out Way Motor Works if I needed any help with my build. Haha. Everyone was cool and they seemed more happy to see someone enjoying their car as opposed to being pissed that it wasn't factory.
#48
02-07-2013, 01:37 PM
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Small Update:
Went in for my first oil change since the cat less downpipe and tune. I didn't know exactly what I should expect from the service department.
To my surprise, they were all pretty cool. The technician that did the oil change even left a note on my dashboard letting me know that I should check out Way Motor Works if I needed any help with my build. Haha. Everyone was cool and they seemed more happy to see someone enjoying their car as opposed to being pissed that it wasn't factory.
Went in for my first oil change since the cat less downpipe and tune. I didn't know exactly what I should expect from the service department.
To my surprise, they were all pretty cool. The technician that did the oil change even left a note on my dashboard letting me know that I should check out Way Motor Works if I needed any help with my build. Haha. Everyone was cool and they seemed more happy to see someone enjoying their car as opposed to being pissed that it wasn't factory.
It's only ever an issue if there is a mechanical problem..so just hope you never get one for a loooong time haha
#49
02-07-2013, 08:55 PM
Good deal, Tony... and good deal for Way. Check the sig, got the exhaust manifold. I'm loving life getting ready to send my ECU to NM. For all concerned, my earlier comments about O2 spacers not working was based on many MINI owners and kinda follows your comment about being "finicky". "Finicky" is not my idea of "fixed", so... Looking forward to the tune and am planning on a Quaife LSD and H&R Front Swaybar as my next mods to try and keep the front wheels in check. Cheers!
#50
02-07-2013, 09:24 PM
Hey so what do you guys think about this thing? It seems like it's way more likely to work than just spacers alone. It's gotta work, MINI is in the name!
Mini Cat
EDIT:
I just realized that I installed my non-foulers wrong. You need to drill them out so the O2 sensor can fit inside but I drilled out both of them instead of just one. So I have a big 9/16" hole going through both spacers (like a tube), I think the one closest to the DP should have the tiny hole still in it. The actual spacers that Tony bought are like a long spacer with a smaller hole at one end. I'm going to try this tomorrow and hopefully after a few weeks it will turn off
Mini Cat
EDIT:
I just realized that I installed my non-foulers wrong. You need to drill them out so the O2 sensor can fit inside but I drilled out both of them instead of just one. So I have a big 9/16" hole going through both spacers (like a tube), I think the one closest to the DP should have the tiny hole still in it. The actual spacers that Tony bought are like a long spacer with a smaller hole at one end. I'm going to try this tomorrow and hopefully after a few weeks it will turn off
Last edited by calforhelp; 02-07-2013 at 09:37 PM.