so im waitng to here back now from USRT and another reply form 034motorsports. they wanted pictures to see what im talking about....

 

This is difficult, honestly.

USRT knows the importance of matching the injector spray pattern to the intake manifold / head design that it's being used with. *The only exception is that of what SoccerBummer and I discussed earlier: An injector with a wide enough single cone pattern and EXCELLENT atomization is the only deviation you should make from using factory-like dual cone injectors. The 380's on their site were originally designed for a 1.8T small port head, which like the R53, has a split port manifold design and is of near identical size. With that being said, I'm assuming that these injectors were modified in order to become "dual cone" pattern injectors, as specified on their site.

Still, even if they were modified, I can't see how those tips would produce a consistent dual cone pattern. Each injector looks to have a different nozzle orientation. They may be a wide angle single.. When you talk to Scott at USRT, make sure he knows, that you know that these are originally Bosch 267cc units, and wide single beam. Ask him what was done to make them 380cc and suitable for a 1.8T small port. He's a really nice guy, and willing to openly discuss their products.

I stand by the statement that if an injector is meant to be "dual cone" spray, nozzle orientation must be consistent from one injector to the next.

 

Back on page 8 of this thread TheBigChill said in his post that Bosch part #0280158117 were the injectors that mynes and rmw use for 550cc injectors do that's what I ordered but they don't look right.

 

well here is the conversation i had.

Me:
Hi guys, im having a bit a problem here and the guys on the forums are
confused as well. i had bought a set of genesis 380cc injectors from
034motorsports, they don't appear to be assembled correctly maybe you guys
can help solve this issue? im using them on a 02 Mini Cooper S. It seems to
me and other people that the nozzles are not correctly clocked and dont
spray right. they are saying that maybe the were built incorrectly or
damaged then repaired and then not rebuilt correctly either. here are some
picks and the serial code on the side of the injector 0280158056

USRT:
> It seems to me and other people that the nozzles are not correctly clocked and dont spray right.

What makes you think that they don't spray correctly? Clocking does not matter with any Genesis 380cc because they have always sprayed straight (i.e. inline with the injector body vs. at a tangent angle). For correct operation, you need a consistent flow rate from one injector to the next, a helpful spray pattern (which for your car would be a single medium cone), the correct spray angle, and a reaction time that is at least as quick as the JCW injectors (if not faster).

> they are saying that maybe the were built incorrectly or damaged then repaired and then not rebuilt correctly either.

Who is the "they" that you refer to here?

> and this is off of your site (USRT)

I don't believe that photograph was not sourced from the USRT website. Ironically, our site still has a very old version of that injector pictured. For the record, there have been several versions of Genesis 380cc over the years. That's because the small 380cc size has been discontinued and restarted by a variety of OEMs.

Let's focus on what's not actually working correctly in your vehicle to move forward.

Cheers,

P.S. The last time we sold 034 Motorsports a G380 injector was 04/16/2010. Before that was 06/24/2008. The first time was 12/11/2007. Each was only 4 pieces. So, there are a total of 12 out there. The likelihood that what you got from 034 was a brand new set of true Genesis 380cc is very remote.

Me:
From what i have been told i need a dual cone spray pattern to go down the split ports of the 16v head. the they are three people who appear to be knowledgeable on the forum there names are TheBigChill, soccerbummer1104 and some guy who works for bosch. ( I know the usernames probably wont help) They dont appear to be dual cone but i dont know.

The issues i was getting were misfires across all cylinders and a cyl 4 injector signal error code. now i may chalk that up as user error, a clip not being pushed in all the way or something. i am going to try to install them again but am waiting on different connectors to come in so that i can clear the intercooler better.

here is the thread if you are interested. just form the important part on.
https://www.northamericanmotoring.co...ectors-11.html


where i got the picture from your site, but like you said they are probably old.
http://www.usrallyteam.com/content/products/injector/

and from what i gather the injectors i have are from a late model GT500


also i did contact 034motorsports and they wanted pictures so, i sent them some. I'll see what they say, because i wanted to exchange them but now if these don't work out i will ask to return them.

Thanks,
Gabriel

Thanks again for the quick response.

USRT:

> From what i have been told i need a dual cone spray pattern to go down the split ports of the 16v head.

They don't need to be, but that's a helpful feature for clean emissions. Many multivalve engines use single wide cones vs. split patterns. An example is the VW/Audi 20v (with three intake valves). The early examples came with Bosch EV1 injectors that spray in a single wide cone. Later versions came with dual stream injectors. The point is that they can be interchanged (but with differing advantages/compromises).

> The issues i was getting were misfires across all cylinders and a cyl 4 injector signal error code. now i may chalk that up as user error, a clip not being pushed in all the way or something.

I don't suspect that user error has anything to do with it. My suspicion is that it's a tuning/parts incompatibility issue.That is, between the tune and the specific injectors used. Or, it could be a set of old parts that aren't functioning correctly. What does your AFR look like? Is it too lean, too rich, or unstable -especially at idle? Does the engine run smoothly or not?

> where i got the picture from your site, but like you said they are probably old. http://www.usrallyteam.com/content/products/injector/

That's an archived image. -not representative of the current Genesis 380cc.

> and from what i gather the injectors i have are from a late model GT500

It very well could be. They're Bosch EV14 which are state of the art.

> also i did contact 034motorsports and they wanted pictures so, i sent them some. I'll see what they say, because i wanted to exchange them but now if these don't work out i will ask to return them.

What's certain is that they didn't buy the parts from USRT any time soon. There's no question. Btw, we'd love to step up and lead in the Mini community. Your situation looks like the "Wild West" days within the VW/Audi scene when software/hardware compatibility was an issue. Folks were mixing and matching parts that deviated from the established standard. If we could align with a key software provider, the whole game could be tightened up to provide optimal results.

Cheers,

> Thanks again for the quick response.

We're a racing team. It's our job to be quick. (tip hat)

Me:
here are a few more members on the forum that use G380's and have said they have not had any problems just straight plug and play, and that i needed to make sure that the plugs were clipped in all the way and that the injectors are pushed in all the way, one person had similar misfire issues and just pushed on the plugs and injectors a bit more and his problems are gone and has not had any issues yet.

Unfortunately i do not have a wide band O2/AFR gauge but by looking at others dyno sheets with afr data on it it shows that with the common mods reduction pulley, intake and exhaust you run very lean under WOT, my very good friend has the same mods as me, and as many other mini owners, and his afrs where in the 12.5-15 range.(via a dyno sheet) i can physical see signs of running lean my exhaust tips are no longer black. when before the mods they were always covered in soot.

Now from my understanding the Cooper S ecu can self adapt to bigger injectors that are no bigger than 380cc with out tuning(stock is 340cc). It will just run richer under WOT, around 10.5 afr instead of 11.5.

Also it was highly recommend that i get these flow tested, would you agree? now that you have said that they may be old and have sat around.

Finally are these or are they not Genesis injectors? just based of the pictures and serial numbers? it was not clear.

Thanks,
Gabriel

USRT:

> Also it was highly recommend that i get these flow tested, would you agree? now that you have said that they may be old and have sat around.

I agree 100%. This way we know if you've got a set that works correctly or not. Make sure that you get a report about spray pattern as well as peak flow.

P.S. Please let the Mini community know that USRT is happy to work with and support them.

Me:
another thing i was told just now that these injectors are these are originally Bosch 267cc units, and wide single beam and i would like to know what was done to make them 380cc and suitable for a 1.8T small port.


i will most certainly spread the word about USRT! i knew about you guys when i was driving VW's

Thank you very much,
Gabriel

USRT:
> another thing i was told just now that these injectors are these are originally Bosch 267cc units, and wide single beam

That they were originally a wide beam pattern is why I'm saying that the "clocking" that you described simply doesn't matter.

> and i would like to know what was done to make them 380cc and suitable for a 1.8T small port.

You can see by looking at the holes that they're not perfectly symmetrical. They've been enlarged with a precision drill similar to what jewelers use. Our factory-original injector are all laser drilled. The oldest G380cc were supplied this way. As the OEs have dropped the small injectors, the pickings have been come slim. So, the flow modification process is used.

 

Wpoff85:

I just said it again, above They are in fact the same injectors.

Scroll to bottom and look at "Cross Reference Numbers": http://www.bmotorsports.com/shop/pro...oducts_id/1661

Now read post#22, directly from Mynes: http://www.*********************/for...#axzz2nIPPrw7k

 

i never asked but would USRT be able to flow test and fix them?

 

Greek, you don't have the GT500 injectors, Wpoff85 does. You have some sort of Australian Ford unit, according to the part#.

What I find interesting about USRT's statement is the contradiction here: http://www.usrallyteam.com/index.php...ex&cPath=10_44 They clearly state that: -"The correct injector type for this inlet configuration is one where the injector nozzle sprays precisely-split fuel streams directly into each port and onto the back of each inlet valve."

When compared to his statement from your conversation: For what it's worth, Scott at USRT explained to me that he met with Eric at Helix a few years ago, and explained to Helix that for the R53, we need dual cone injectors. USRT then became the sole supplier of non-JCW 380cc units for Helix.

What he did confirm is this: Those are single cone injectors, and because of that, the nozzle and orifice "clocking" can vary from unit-to-unit. We already knew this. Again, what I find interesting is his contradictions: In one breath (the site) they note the importance of matching spray pattern to manifold design (as we discussed earlier), and in another says that it doesn't matter (your conversation).

 

ahhh ok i thought you were talking to me about the injectors. i thought so because i googled the part number.

i dont know, when the new connectors come in as well as my new IC boot clamps. im gonna try them again just for the sake of trying.

 

If they are the same why do the ones I purchased have a different tip? Mine look like the tip of a ballpoint pen not the 6 hole disc like the ones in the link you provided.

 

You should ask the people / place you bought them from, honestly
Mynes themselves said the Bosch part#, and a simple search shows that part# is factory equipment for a GT500 Mustang.

 

Good news!!!!!! My injectors were just built a flowed by usrt. So its a problem with my care or signal to injectors.

 

I also made a mistake on where I got them. I got them from euro code tuning.

 

just got anther email form scott explaining these G380's some more.

" I can explain more about them. Your original suspicion was that the spray pattern was off due to the hole clocking being somewhat different from injector to injector. As we both know, these parts started life as Bosch EV-14 of a smaller flow rate. We enlarged the holes that were already there. In other words, they were clocked in a dissimilar arrangement from the factory. Why's that? Again, the answer is "because it doesn't matter". No matter how the holes are placed radially, you end up with a single spray cone.

One thing that mechanical drilling does, though, is that it produces burrs in the metal diffuser plate from which the fuel emerges. This can cause deviations in the spray pattern that are visibly noticeable. The pattern won't look 100% perfect as if they were laser drilled. However, we're usually talking about a very miniscule effect that an ECU can't even detect.

Have more questions? I've got answers. "

 

Never has doing something so simple become so hard....314 posts to save about 100$ if you get it to work.....so much for simple....good luck to all...lots of great info, but from a $ per hour of time spent it sounds a bit like a fail...especially when you had to do 2 installs (get new injector orings...a leak there are you have a crispy mini..) And STILL got redrills...as opposed to tge parts bin injectors talked about. Redrils (as previously noted) borderline ok....they tend to work kinda ok....but are usually not worth much compared to the extra $ of going to a new injector or a partsbin rebuild to higher flow....

 

well you know zippy i the begining nobody knew they were redrills or a parts bin. now that we have uncovered this people can make more informed desicions. this thread isnt just about 380s. or only about genesis 380s this thread isalso about those people who dont want to spend the extar money when you know you can get an identical product fr cheaper.

 

It seems a fairly well-beaten path.

I had the JCW tune for a year on stock "330" injectors. With the 16% pulley I was running before my s/c died, my modded stock airbox, and my custom/RMW cat-back, I was pulling lean codes on long trips in the hills. It didn't get any better with the 17% I was been running on the used s/c I was running up until September. My mechanic has seen tons of more-or-less stock MINIs run that program with no issues on 330s, but I guess my intake/exhaust setup is a bit more free-flowing than most. It's certainly *louder* than most.... Adding the factory JCW 380 injectors this past June stopped that problem cold and seemed to add a little power across the rev range (according to the ever-so-accurate butt dyno ).

They seem to be holding up well with the extra airflow from the Steigemeier rebuilt/ported s/c I have on there since September, and it made as much a difference in power as upgrading to the smaller pulley did (butt dyno again ). Hopefully I will get on the dyno soon and have some numbers to compare from the 330/17% combo to the 380/17%/ported-supercharger combo I have going on now. I made 175HP at the wheels with the old set-up, and I'm hoping for 200....

C ya,
Dutch

 

My butt dyno agrees with that tuner dood. Low/mid was a noticeable improvement, high end was about the same, but smoother (likely because my old injectors were a hair lean).

C ya,
Dutch

 

The porting on the jcw head is only on the exhaust ports and accounts for an extra 10cfm or so. Considering our eatons move over 300cfm thats pretty insignificant.



An eaton with a 15% is spinning at just under 17k rpms at redline for reference. They tried to sell me the head when I got my jcw tune saying I needed it if I wanted to avoid engine damage but I didn't fall for it.

 

Go big or go home. 1000cc injectors. Just sayin'

 

TBH I knew they were re-drills

but anywho, redrills can be okay depending on application and as long as they were flow matched, but as I said, while factory, clocking may matter as the cones are off-axis, on re-drills you loose that precision and it does not matter as that spray cone could come out at any phi or theta angle from the nozzle.


and as for 1000 cc's! lol!
bosch "openly" makes 1200cc EV14 injectors that you can get in normal length, but the only 1000's are drilled units (but you can get very good ones! possibly even laser drilled) from Injector Dynamic or one other company.. (name escapes me)

They are well respected in the skyline community.

or you can just go to bosch directly and plop down some cash and get a set of 950cc's for ~$160/ injector
(made by hand for NASCAR changeover to FI, so since they made a lot they fall quite short of the typical $400/injector for bosch motorsport hand-made injectors )

 

Lol!!!!!!! Re-drilled. Haha!!!!!

 

Interesting info. I suppose that with a 17% it would be spinning around 19k RPM. I wonder what sort of CFM my Steigemeier ported one is putting out....

C ya,
Dutch

 

What bothers me about this, is that Scott is clearly making contradictory statements, in the sense that while his website claims that not only are the Genesis 380cc units dual cone pattern (while some iterations obviously are not..), his website also states that for split-port / multi-valve heads, the correct type of injector is a dual cone (which is 100% true unless you have an injector that is single cone, but extremely wide spray with stellar atomization.

When Helix first started toying with injectors for the R53, they supposedly were having issues with tuning and idle quality. From what Scott @ USRT tells me, Helix was running Bosch White Giants, and were not satisfied with them. Eric of Helix, being a past VW guy, contacted Scott at USRT for input on what to run. Scott explained to Eric that the R53 head, like the small port 1.8T head, should run dual cone injectors, and from then on USRT was supplying Helix with dual cone Genesis 380cc units. Both Helix and USRT note the importance of this type of injector on their sites. Just a bit of history, from Scott, to me, to you.

Again, he's correct in saying that on a single cone injector, the nozzle "clocking" doesn't matter. On a dual cone, it absolutely does, which is why there was cause for alarm at first, because we thought ALL Genesis 380's were dual cone (as advertised on their site..). It turns out that's not true, and they didn't bother to make note of it.

Bottom line: USRT, 034, APTtuning, VerdictMotorsports, etc, ALL advertise these Genesis 380cc injectors as "factory correct dual cone spray" in their product descriptions. This issue with your injectors is not your fault, or mine, or anyone other than vendors who grossly and incorrectly advertised their product. You should get a refund, and buy something that's unmodified and verified as dual cone. That's my opinion.

 

+1
Get what you paid for...not just something that "might work" or fit...

 

I'm a bit of a broken record right now, but for the sake of clarity: USRT is known as a reputable parts supplier for VW & Audi enthusiasts. Also, these injectors shouldwork with no issue, and should have been dual cone, as advertised on their site. Past reputability aside, they should be noting on their website that older units may have drilled nozzles, and are single cone spray pattern. It sounds that if you were to buy a current set from USRT, they would not be drilled, and would have the correct dual cone pattern.

While I still think it's totally safe to buy the current iteration of the Genesis 380cc, the best JCW 380cc alternative is the Bosch 0280158096. Apologies if anyone feels misled regarding the Genesis units, but they should build a little more transparency into the variances that exist between the different iterations of their 380cc offerings that have existed over time.