Who's "talking crap"?

 

There is 375 post of crap in this thread.

 

i really don't think so. you know some people do enjoy reading explanations too not just an itemized list of what's what.

 

And you may very well be right, but some people DON'T. Those people want an article type post in the beginning, and then let the discussion continue below it.

There is a handful of known injectors that can be purchased at prices considerable less then the JCW units and some of them flow better.

But ask yourself if you wanted to know about injectors to get for you MINI and were on a budget, do you want to read 400+ post or read 10 post that have the info you want with some basic information and caveats, and let the internet 'talking heads' carry on without you?

So what I will start work on tonight is an Article based on the information here and I will submit it so that it can be edited by the brain trust that is NAM. I believe there are people here that have the information and are very smart, but for some reason the MINI community feels the need to be a little 'close to the chest' with information, I personally dis-agree with that choice. I am one to share any and all information!

 

I went so far out of my way to find what actually works and what doesn't, that summing it up as "crap" is shortsighted. I spent literally hours on the phone with vendors, web searching and cross-referencing Excel Spreadsheets with literally thousands of specifications. Not even 2 pages into the 18 pages or however many that exist, I was recommending actual alternatives, not just speculating on what might work, and continued to update it as we went on. Now, through all of these pages, there were questions, misconceptions, mistakes, etc, all of which needed explanation and correction over and over again, so that we're providing accurate information to the community.

People use this site as a resource, and more often than they should, quote what's typed as truth. Because of this, it's critical that things are explained and corrected accordingly, and sometimes that's long-winded. If you want to take these pages and make a Sticky, by all means, do it; I'd be thrilled to help as I stated in both early and recent posts, but labeling this as "crap" is obtuse.

This thread and the hard work of a few members is the sole reason you can now spend $50 on used injectors, and have them perform as good or better than used $300 JCW units; This thread is the reason you can now give RMW, Helix, etc, the one finger salute, and source identical injectors for 1/2 of their price.

 

I have made a 'article' based on the information from this thread I will post a link to soon, I would like TheBigChill to look it over first, as he has been the one to provide a good bit of information about his conversion.

 

Thanks thebigchill and others for all the great info. I read many pages in, but am having trouble keeping everything strait. I wish I was able to, I tried, but I guess I'm just not up to it. I know a bunch of alternative possibilities for injectors were talked about, and that the work thebigchill did by researching the specs and speaking with vendors produced some stars of the show, that are the same as JCW OEM but much cheaper. Coop3r did you make a short list with the best injectors with a couple of sentences that set them apart from others on the short list? Also, since it seems like this upgrade will require dyno tuning (I have a 15% pulley, even though the O2 sensor will compensate at low load driving I don't want to take any chances with the caty and such) How much does this cost and does anyone know a good place near Los Angeles? Thanks.

 

JD

Yes it is done, BigChill is just reviewing it right now, and it will be posted in the next couple days.

c0op3r

 

In addition to info on the ejectors being worked on by thebigchill, I was wondering if I just dropped in 380cc injectors at what type of load would WOT kick in and bypass the 02 sensors resulting in a richer than optimal mix? I have read that the 02 sensors are bypassed for stored values when the throttle hits 80%. How many RPM is this? What type of condition does 80% occur under (speed, or RPM). Like many here I have an R53 S with 15% pulley. I have also read that remapping to JCW for 2005 and later models may be problematic in that much more than injector flow is altered in the ECU. Is there any way to lean the mixture without a full JCW remap? Do I have any of the above wrong? Thanks for your help everyone.

 

I have an 03' JCW which came with the 330cc injectors....they didn't start putting the 380cc injectors in the JCWs until 2005 if I remember right. I have a 17% pulley , and I'm still running the 330cc innectors and my car runs strong without any issues.

With a 15% pulley on a MCS you should not have any problems with the stock 330cc injectors.

 

I have an R53 S 05' with the stock 330cc injectors, but I've added a 15% pulley to force more air into the piston chamber and JCW style air intake to feed the supercharger forcing the extra air. It seems only reasonable that I also increase the other factor in the equation, namely available fuel injectd into the piston chamber. I know that the 05' JCW had a few other differences but I can't help but think if MINI upped the JCW injectors to 380cc and I've added JCW like ability to force more air into the piston chamber, I should also provide the ability to force more fuel. The HP bumped to 210 when MINI upped the injectors. (I know without remapping my ECU will believe by injectors to be 330cc and be forcing more fuel then intended, but the 02 feedback should compensate for the most part) What are your thoughts everybody? Thebigchill gives his opinion in post #22, and says do it, anyone else?

 

People have been running the 15% and 17% pulleys on mildly modded (exhaust, intake) R53's for years and years......without issues. Unless you just want bigger injectors to say you have them......the 330cc injectors should be fine.

Like I said...I've got a 17% pulley, all the JCW goodies (intake, exhaust, head, 200hp JCW tune)....and I run the 330cc injectors...and it's just fine.

Now if it was a track car that I raced and was hard on the gas all the time....I would probably go up to 380cc injectors just for the safety factor, but for a daily driver....I'm not worried.

 

Stock R53 injectors, based on recent flow testing done by a NAM member (sent to injector shop), actually flow 347cc @ 3bar fuel pressure, rather than 330cc. Just an FYI.

And to a point, I agree with you, IQ, in saying that for most mildly modded applications, the stock 340cc injectors seem to be sufficient.

However, what essentially nobody has shown as of yet is this: Logged AFR's on a mildly modded R53 running stock injectors, as well as Injector Duty Cycle for the same.
I've only seen one anecdote about AFR on an Intake/Exhaust/15% Pulley car w/ stock R53 injectors: The man said that he was seeing between 11.2 and 11.6 AFR with that set-up. I've posted this before, but again, those are great AFR's for safe power. He then changed to untuned "Helix" (Genesis) 380cc units, and saw his AFR change to 10.2 - 10.5. Which is less than ideal, but still safe in all respects (not too rich), but you're leaving a lot of power on the table.

Again, going to un-tuned 380cc injectors can help or hurt your power; it just depends on where you're at right now in terms of mods, AFR, and IDC.

Also, I'm working with C0oper to make a Sticky based on this thread, but I'm holding things up with my tight schedule. It'll be done soon; Apologies.


JDGordon: The car will run too rich under two conditions: 1) During cold starts, until your ECU sees coolant temps that it likes, and 2) WOT conditions, where your car determines fueling based off of things like TPS, MAP, and RPM. These two situations are called "Open Loop", and this is when un-tuned injectors will show themselves as such.

The car will run fine in "Closed Loop" tuning, meaning the primary O2 sensor is being used to determine fuel trims, and the ECU will maintain a "Stoich" mix, regardless of the un-tuned 380cc units. You don't have to believe me, there's a wealth of information out there for you to refer to. I will say this: with your mods, I'll put money on the fact that you'll lose power with un-tuned 380's due to them being slightly too rich at WOT. If you run colder than stock spark plugs, you also risk fouling plugs during cold start with un-tuned 380's. Cheers.

 

Thanks for the tips TheBigChill, and for working on that sticky. At what point do you think I should start considering 380cc injectors. like I said, so far I'm at 15% pulley, and high flow air intake (btw, I noticed a LOT more power when I installed the JCW style intake, a few months after the 15% pulley. A lot of people say 1hp or something, it was WAY more than that). Thanks again

 

i would like to post this graph again showing AFR's on my frineds mini he has a 17%, alta intake, DT BPV, and jcw cat-back. stock 330 injectors. on a 04 mini S

Now that being said i could feel a diffrence between 330 and 380 at wot especially at the top end, now that i am back to the 330's for fuel economy until i can get tuned the tip end feels very anemic.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

This is AFR look how lean it is before the tune (RED Dashed line)

after the tune the AFR's went down and his injectors are running at 90% duty cycle.



this is Boost... i dont know how he was making 19psi on a 17% pulley

 

I think I will look into getting a tune one of these days. I think my JCW with a 17% pulley would benefit from it...... But for right now, it runs pretty darn good. I'm making around 15psi boost with the 17% pulley....it's a little less boost than a standard MCS....but I think that's because of the JCW head.....more exhaust flow = less boost.

 

The fact that he's making 19psi on that chart, instead of 15-16psi, potentially explains why he's so lean. There's a large CFM increase associated with that large of an increase in boost.

I have some questions for you, Greek:

1)Is your friend running cat-less?
2)Where did the tuner test the AFR; tailpipe exit or header collector / mid-pipe?

I ask this because if your friend has a cat in his exhaust and the AFR was tested with a tailpipe mounted wideband at the tuning shop, the AFR will read a good bit leaner than it actually is. Most shops use a tailpipe mounted wideband, which is kind of cheesy and inaccurate if the customer has a cat present. For accuracy, AFR needs to be tested much closer to the exhaust manifold, ideally within 20" of the exhaust ports, and with no cats preceding the wideband.

 

Considering the amount of $$ that we as MINI owners spend on parts, I'd pony-up the measly $150 it costs for an AEM Uego Wideband, and start looking at what your AFR actually is, rather than guessing and throwing parts at the car that you may not need. I myself plan to do this in a few weeks.

All cars are different, so I can't say where you're at. I'm hesitant to say that you need bigger injectors at this point, but there are ways to find out definitively. Buy a wideband

 

he has a cat. and it was at the tailpipe. well if you see where hes making it its at like the last like couple hundred rpms. the rest of the rpm range is looking pretty normal; 12-16 psi.....

 

You're right about the boost, though, it's unusually "peaky".
Yeah, man. People can't be measuring AFR 84" from the exhaust ports, and with an OEM cat in front of the wideband, expecting even remotely accurate AFR's; That's not how that works.

Straight from AEM's PDF for Wideband installation: "For accurate readings, the sensor must be mounted before catalytic converters and/or auxiliary air pumps."

 

I'm glad I saw this......there is a local shop with a dyno I was going to take my car to this weekend just to get some baseline HP, TQ, and AFR readings. They told me that it would be just find to use their probe in the end of my tailpipe....no need to drill a hole in front of the cat for the wideband o2 sensor. You would think that a shop with a dyno would know better....

 

Many dyno shops do it, oddly enough. It's just a lot cheaper / easier to fit a tailpipe-mounted wideband if you're just looking for base numbers. I did some research today on reputable tuning sites (RomRaider & MegaSquirt) and also called a local tuning shop (Synapse Turbo), and here's what I found: It's commonly accepted that by testing AFR at the tailpipe of a cat equipped car, you'll get an AFR that's ~0.5 - 0.7 off in the lean direction, when compared to if you had tested AFR at the correct, pre-cat location.

Excuse the slightly imperfect analogy, but, this is like having an Inspection Station perform your state's emissions testing by probing the exhaust pre-cat, instead of after. It makes very little sense if it's accuracy you're after...

 

I followed this thread from the beginning and decided to share my experience so far with an alternate 380cc injector this weekend. It was time to replace my pump, filter, and fuel pressure regulator so I decided with my mods it wouldn't hurt to replace my stock injectors also. Considering my stock ones had 150k miles on them. So after following this thread I purchased a set of the Bosch white giants from ecstuning. For just under 200 bucks and since they were deemed a suitable replacement to jcw 380s figured it was worth a try. They are definitely taller than the stock injectors and I had to get a spacer for the fuel rail but all an all they work!

At first I thought they didn't. When first taking off from a start the car made a sound similiar to a misfire or exhaust leak that went away once the rpms climbed. I don't know if it was due to the car still learning the injectors or due to having next to no fuel or perhaps air bubbles from doing my filter and stuff too. But after filling up and resetting the ecu it drives great, my afrs are normally during regular driving and at WOT I see 10.2-10.7 near redline. Rich but not entirely too bad in my opinion. So far so good, I'll see how it does the rest of this weekend.

My mods are a wmw 15% pulley package, obx header+ custom exhaust with no cat, alta intake, wmw ignition package, fluid filled crank pulley, wmw quick tune (not scales for 380 injectors, got the quick tune long before this upgrade), and Detroit tuned bpv.

Only difficulty in the install was had to get a spacer and longer fuel rail bolts. I didn't have to raise the inter cooler but it does sit almost right on the fuel rail. But other than that it was smooth!

 

What were your AFR's at part throttle and WOT before the 380cc injectors? Does the motor seem to make more power with the 380cc injectors? What about fuel mileage?

 

I didnt pay much attention to part throttle afrs. But my WOT was more like 10.7-11.2 before the 380s and that's at peak redline.

Only thing I'm noticing now with these injectors sometimes my car likes I run rough at idle or lean out a bit. Couple revs and it's fine. It never leans out during driving or throttle.