Drivetrain Standard motor 380CC injectors
#27
09-11-2013 | 06:53 AM
If 034Motorsports is local to you, I'd support them for that reason.
http://www.034motorsport.com/fuel-in...r-p-17934.html
You save like $20 by purchasing them from: http://www.ecodetuning.com/shop/cart..._detail&p=1229 But eCode has had complaints in the past regarding customer service.
To make things even more fun, ECSTuning sells Bosch "White Giant" 380cc injectors, which are a popular alternative to the Genesis 380cc units for Audi and VW guys. These also have the correct connector, impedance, spray pattern, latency, and a larger but still usable body length(spacers possibly required).
http://www.ecstuning.com/Search/Site...0cc/ES2594193/
http://www.ctsturbo.com/cart/product...ector-4-4.html
The majority of aftermarket vendors here, and other places, are simply reselling injectors which are OEM on certain cars, removing the manufacturer part#, and then pawning them off as something special. The MINI is not special. It's a small displacement, multi-valve head, that has a common fuel delivery system and impedance requirement. As I said before, there are even several OEM Volvo injectors that will work fine on this motor. Good luck.
http://www.034motorsport.com/fuel-in...r-p-17934.html
You save like $20 by purchasing them from: http://www.ecodetuning.com/shop/cart..._detail&p=1229 But eCode has had complaints in the past regarding customer service.
To make things even more fun, ECSTuning sells Bosch "White Giant" 380cc injectors, which are a popular alternative to the Genesis 380cc units for Audi and VW guys. These also have the correct connector, impedance, spray pattern, latency, and a larger but still usable body length(spacers possibly required).
http://www.ecstuning.com/Search/Site...0cc/ES2594193/
http://www.ctsturbo.com/cart/product...ector-4-4.html
The majority of aftermarket vendors here, and other places, are simply reselling injectors which are OEM on certain cars, removing the manufacturer part#, and then pawning them off as something special. The MINI is not special. It's a small displacement, multi-valve head, that has a common fuel delivery system and impedance requirement. As I said before, there are even several OEM Volvo injectors that will work fine on this motor. Good luck.
#28
09-11-2013 | 07:58 AM
#29
09-11-2013 | 08:44 AM
You're a fool, and your grasp on motor design and function is tenuous at best. If the R53 had ONE intake valve per cylinder, we wouldn't need DUAL CONE INJECTORS.... Good talk. Next time you feel like belittling someone, try learning something first.
It's a 16 valve 4 cylinder. Basic math escaping you ?
Last edited by TheBigChill; 09-11-2013 at 09:33 AM. Reason: So I could include your stupid quote.
#30
09-11-2013 | 09:00 AM
You're a fool, and your grasp on motor design and function is tenuous at best. I've seen your posts; everything you know of cars, you've learned from misinformed Forum members posting the same mindless garbage. If the R53 had ONE intake valve per cylinder, we wouldn't need DUAL CONE INJECTORS.... Good talk. Next time you feel like belittling someone, try learning something first.
It's a 16 valve 4 cylinder. Basic math escaping you ?
It's a 16 valve 4 cylinder. Basic math escaping you ?
Sometimes it is so much fun to poke a bit!!
Now we have established the dual cone injectors are needed to to the valve arrangement....a useful bit of data some folks miss...
It is great to be be filled with passion...
But take a breath...no reason to blow up!!
#31
09-11-2013 | 09:33 AM
Well, friend, I apologize for the harshness. Though, this and other Forums aren't for belittling people, they're to be used as a reference tool. It's important to remember this: Just because I, or anyone else here is new to NAM, doesn't mean we're new to cars.
Another useful picture which illustrates why we need dual cone injectors of a specific angle is this:
It illustrates how the injectors need to fire directly at the two intake valves, and avoid the inlet port's central bridge as much as possible. A single cone injector would just spray all over that bridge, resulting in inconsistent tunes and a shitty idle, not to mention poor fuel economy. The angle of dual cone injectors does matter, but personally, I don't see a huge issue with running 15 or 20 degree dual cone angles. OEM for the R53 is 15 degree angle.
Another useful picture which illustrates why we need dual cone injectors of a specific angle is this:
It illustrates how the injectors need to fire directly at the two intake valves, and avoid the inlet port's central bridge as much as possible. A single cone injector would just spray all over that bridge, resulting in inconsistent tunes and a shitty idle, not to mention poor fuel economy. The angle of dual cone injectors does matter, but personally, I don't see a huge issue with running 15 or 20 degree dual cone angles. OEM for the R53 is 15 degree angle.
#32
09-11-2013 | 10:16 AM
Well, friend, I apologize for the harshness. Though, this and other Forums aren't for belittling people, they're to be used as a reference tool. It's important to remember this: Just because I, or anyone else here is new to NAM, doesn't mean we're new to cars.
Another useful picture which illustrates why we need dual cone injectors of a specific angle is this:
It illustrates how the injectors need to fire directly at the two intake valves, and avoid the inlet port's central bridge as much as possible. A single cone injector would just spray all over that bridge, resulting in inconsistent tunes and a shitty idle, not to mention poor fuel economy. The angle of dual cone injectors does matter, but personally, I don't see a huge issue with running 15 or 20 degree dual cone angles. OEM for the R53 is 15 degree angle.
Another useful picture which illustrates why we need dual cone injectors of a specific angle is this:
It illustrates how the injectors need to fire directly at the two intake valves, and avoid the inlet port's central bridge as much as possible. A single cone injector would just spray all over that bridge, resulting in inconsistent tunes and a shitty idle, not to mention poor fuel economy. The angle of dual cone injectors does matter, but personally, I don't see a huge issue with running 15 or 20 degree dual cone angles. OEM for the R53 is 15 degree angle.
Great work finding those injectors! Folks have been looking for a LONG time!
I like to try to get as much info as to WHY things are done they are into these threads....
kinda helps build the knowledge base...
without the info on why....folks go and waste their $$ on redrilled injectors that are not to the right spec from e-bay...they wonder why their car will not run right....
#33
09-11-2013 | 10:29 AM
This Thread
I find this thread very interesting as I was looking for alternatives to the JCW/Factory upgrade injectors; I was told by others that it could not be done and that no one has gotten it to work successfully. I have done this kinda swap in other cars before (including BMWs).
And the things here are what I have known all along it not rocket science, all you need is an injector that is the same physical type/size, spray pattern and meets the electrical configuration the the computer knows how to handle (ie Impedance, voltage).
I would love to put together a Sticky/List of workable replacement injectors, as some can be found for as little a $1 each at the salvage yards, I know that people say don't use Salvage yard units, but lets be honest if you find a 6 or 8 cylinder cars that have what you need, and then send them out to be flow tested and cleaned, you can easily get 4 matched and refreshed units out of the deal for right around 100.oo$ TOTAL.
And the things here are what I have known all along it not rocket science, all you need is an injector that is the same physical type/size, spray pattern and meets the electrical configuration the the computer knows how to handle (ie Impedance, voltage).
I would love to put together a Sticky/List of workable replacement injectors, as some can be found for as little a $1 each at the salvage yards, I know that people say don't use Salvage yard units, but lets be honest if you find a 6 or 8 cylinder cars that have what you need, and then send them out to be flow tested and cleaned, you can easily get 4 matched and refreshed units out of the deal for right around 100.oo$ TOTAL.
#34
09-11-2013 | 11:57 AM
4th Gear
Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 313
Likes: 2
From: PacificNorthWest
I find this thread very interesting as I was looking for alternatives to the JCW/Factory upgrade injectors; I was told by others that it could not be done and that no one has gotten it to work successfully. I have done this kinda swap in other cars before (including BMWs).
And the things here are what I have known all along it not rocket science, all you need is an injector that is the same physical type/size, spray pattern and meets the electrical configuration the the computer knows how to handle (ie Impedance, voltage).
I would love to put together a Sticky/List of workable replacement injectors, as some can be found for as little a $1 each at the salvage yards, I know that people say don't use Salvage yard units, but lets be honest if you find a 6 or 8 cylinder cars that have what you need, and then send them out to be flow tested and cleaned, you can easily get 4 matched and refreshed units out of the deal for right around 100.oo$ TOTAL.
And the things here are what I have known all along it not rocket science, all you need is an injector that is the same physical type/size, spray pattern and meets the electrical configuration the the computer knows how to handle (ie Impedance, voltage).
I would love to put together a Sticky/List of workable replacement injectors, as some can be found for as little a $1 each at the salvage yards, I know that people say don't use Salvage yard units, but lets be honest if you find a 6 or 8 cylinder cars that have what you need, and then send them out to be flow tested and cleaned, you can easily get 4 matched and refreshed units out of the deal for right around 100.oo$ TOTAL.
I was able to get a complete set of low mileage R53 JCW injectors from a salvage yard still on the fuel rail with all the other goodies on the fuel rail for 120 bucks. Cleaned them up.... raced a half tank of E50 through and all has been happy since. I fully agree on finding injectors from other sources used like salvage yards, craigslist, etc.. Then sending them to a shop to have them cleaned and balanced. I rebuild my own diesel injectors and own my calibration test standard with test gauges. I clean, rebuild, replace the nozzles, and then balance them accordingly.
#36
09-11-2013 | 01:12 PM
JCW Injectors
Yes I too bought a set of the JCWs from someone for 150$, they are out to be had cheaper, but I originally wanted to go with 440cc or better and pop them in and do a tune at the same time, I heard so much negative from people that you can not use others yadda yadda and got a sure cheap price on the JCWs.
I do not think that I will need more than the 380's can do as I am only shooting for ~200WHP, but lets see about helping other find a cheaper easy solution.
I do not think that I will need more than the 380's can do as I am only shooting for ~200WHP, but lets see about helping other find a cheaper easy solution.
#37
09-11-2013 | 02:36 PM
2nd Gear
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 120
Likes: 0
i also found these, they are in the same family as the bosch 550cc. They are 32lbs at 39psi and just over 380cc at 52psi.
http://www.boschdealer.com/product/3...r-connector-2/
I have no idea if they work but would require a plug adapter but are the new generation. I was going to try them but i think i may be past 380's at the point.
Just a though.
-Jonathan
http://www.boschdealer.com/product/3...r-connector-2/
I have no idea if they work but would require a plug adapter but are the new generation. I was going to try them but i think i may be past 380's at the point.
Just a though.
-Jonathan
#38
09-11-2013 | 06:39 PM
4th Gear
Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 313
Likes: 2
From: PacificNorthWest
i also found these, they are in the same family as the bosch 550cc. They are 32lbs at 39psi and just over 380cc at 52psi.
http://www.boschdealer.com/product/3...r-connector-2/
I have no idea if they work but would require a plug adapter but are the new generation. I was going to try them but i think i may be past 380's at the point.
Just a though.
-Jonathan
http://www.boschdealer.com/product/3...r-connector-2/
I have no idea if they work but would require a plug adapter but are the new generation. I was going to try them but i think i may be past 380's at the point.
Just a though.
-Jonathan
Does someone have a flow chart that shows us how much fuel delivery we need per power level? 200hp? 220hp? 240? etc.. etc... And then what size injectors fit the right flow rates.
#39
09-11-2013 | 09:04 PM
I'm going to contact someone at Siemens and inquire as to at what fuel pressure the JCW units received their flow rating of 380cc; 3 bar, or 3.5 bar. I know that the R53 runs 3.5 bar, but it's industry standard to state or advertise an injector's flow rate at 3 bar. This will be a game changer of sorts, depending on what they say.
There are a ton of spec sheets out there for Bosch that clearly state every aspect of each injector's characteristics. We just need to get the exact body length of stock R53 units, and establish a usable range where physical size is concerned (mountable without interfering with intercooler). This will open-up a lot of options for injectors. I have a few sure things right now, but know more are out there.
Anyhow, regarding how to calculate horsepower potential to fueling needs, check the links below. If you have questions, I'd be glad to stumble through it with you.
http://www.rceng.com/technical.aspx
http://www.justfuelinjectors.com/ser...flowchart/Page
There are a ton of spec sheets out there for Bosch that clearly state every aspect of each injector's characteristics. We just need to get the exact body length of stock R53 units, and establish a usable range where physical size is concerned (mountable without interfering with intercooler). This will open-up a lot of options for injectors. I have a few sure things right now, but know more are out there.
Anyhow, regarding how to calculate horsepower potential to fueling needs, check the links below. If you have questions, I'd be glad to stumble through it with you.
http://www.rceng.com/technical.aspx
http://www.justfuelinjectors.com/ser...flowchart/Page
Last edited by TheBigChill; 09-11-2013 at 09:20 PM.
#42
09-12-2013 | 07:08 AM
4th Gear
Joined: Jan 2011
Posts: 478
Likes: 1
Just saw these 380cc injectors on rockauto, http://www.rockauto.com/catalog/more...900&cc=1432681 . They're the OEM equivalent for the JCW 380cc injectors. I was wondering if people had heard of these and if someone has any experience with these. I could barely find any info online, except for other places that sell them.
I noticed a later comment on coils from Standard that were from China. We did source a few part numbers there because customer demand was too high to meet with just our own product - that practice has stopped and our coils are produced in Greenville, SC and Poland.
#43
09-12-2013 | 07:26 AM
#44
09-12-2013 | 07:39 AM
Bosch part# 0280155830 is what is pictured above. From the tables I've found, these flow 350cc at 3bar. So, ~386cc @ 3.5 bar.
Bosch# 0280155868 flows 378cc @ 3 bar. (commonly used as an upgrade for VW / Audi 1.8T guys, and sold by reputable VW tuning companies).
Bosch# 0280155811 flows 354cc @ 3bar. So, ~391cc @ 3.5 bar.
Before anyone does anything, we need to find a spec sheet and manufacturer (Siemens Deka) part#'s for stock R53 and JCW injectors. I'm only concerned with body length, and their flow at each pressure (3 and 3.5 bar). We already know that we need 15 or 20 (15 ideally) degree dual cone spray, high impedance, and EV1 connectors. From there, we can look at a Bosch injector spec sheet and select injectors that will work.
This may be helpful:
http://www.usrallyteam.com/content/products/injector/
Then select Bosch_Injector_data.xls from the menu.
Bosch# 0280155868 flows 378cc @ 3 bar. (commonly used as an upgrade for VW / Audi 1.8T guys, and sold by reputable VW tuning companies).
Bosch# 0280155811 flows 354cc @ 3bar. So, ~391cc @ 3.5 bar.
Before anyone does anything, we need to find a spec sheet and manufacturer (Siemens Deka) part#'s for stock R53 and JCW injectors. I'm only concerned with body length, and their flow at each pressure (3 and 3.5 bar). We already know that we need 15 or 20 (15 ideally) degree dual cone spray, high impedance, and EV1 connectors. From there, we can look at a Bosch injector spec sheet and select injectors that will work.
This may be helpful:
http://www.usrallyteam.com/content/products/injector/
Then select Bosch_Injector_data.xls from the menu.
Last edited by TheBigChill; 09-12-2013 at 08:57 AM.
#45
09-12-2013 | 08:12 AM
4th Gear
Joined: Jan 2011
Posts: 478
Likes: 1
Likely it is an OE injector (which we buy in order to have complete catalog coverage) but I'd have to look a little further. I'll send a request in to marketing to see if they can't tell me where we're buying this one.
And now we know. The Standard brand injector is actually purchased from Delphi.
Last edited by ignitionmodule; 09-12-2013 at 09:54 AM.
#46
09-12-2013 | 09:01 AM
I work for Standard Motor. .......I noticed a later comment on coils from Standard that were from China. We did source a few part numbers there because customer demand was too high to meet with just our own product - that practice has stopped and our coils are produced in Greenville, SC and Poland.
It is good to hear that sourcing of the parts has changed! Prior to this experience, I had used many boxes of various parts from your company (usually coils, rotors and caps, points(lol remember those)...and this experience kinda made me wonder if it was time to pick the "other" brand when it came time to choose...heck I already had...but maybe next time I'll give you guys a chance.
#47
09-12-2013 | 10:12 AM
4th Gear
Joined: Jan 2011
Posts: 478
Likes: 1
Good to hear...had 2 made in China coil fail on a Toyoda..(one was warrantied ((3 month)), one I ate ((10 months)))...had over 200+/10 years on the OEM denso's....ended up swapping them all out new Denso's.
It is good to hear that sourcing of the parts has changed! Prior to this experience, I had used many boxes of various parts from your company (usually coils, rotors and caps, points(lol remember those)...and this experience kinda made me wonder if it was time to pick the "other" brand when it came time to choose...heck I already had...but maybe next time I'll give you guys a chance.
It is good to hear that sourcing of the parts has changed! Prior to this experience, I had used many boxes of various parts from your company (usually coils, rotors and caps, points(lol remember those)...and this experience kinda made me wonder if it was time to pick the "other" brand when it came time to choose...heck I already had...but maybe next time I'll give you guys a chance.
#48
09-12-2013 | 10:21 AM
4th Gear
Joined: Jan 2011
Posts: 478
Likes: 1
Bosch part# 0280155830 is what is pictured above. From the tables I've found, these flow 350cc at 3bar. So, ~386cc @ 3.5 bar.
Bosch# 0280155868 flows 378cc @ 3 bar. (commonly used as an upgrade for VW / Audi 1.8T guys, and sold by reputable VW tuning companies).
Bosch# 0280155811 flows 354cc @ 3bar. So, ~391cc @ 3.5 bar.
Before anyone does anything, we need to find a spec sheet and manufacturer (Siemens Deka) part#'s for stock R53 and JCW injectors. I'm only concerned with body length, and their flow at each pressure (3 and 3.5 bar). We already know that we need 15 or 20 (15 ideally) degree dual cone spray, high impedance, and EV1 connectors. From there, we can look at a Bosch injector spec sheet and select injectors that will work.
This may be helpful:
http://www.usrallyteam.com/content/products/injector/
Then select Bosch_Injector_data.xls from the menu.
Bosch# 0280155868 flows 378cc @ 3 bar. (commonly used as an upgrade for VW / Audi 1.8T guys, and sold by reputable VW tuning companies).
Bosch# 0280155811 flows 354cc @ 3bar. So, ~391cc @ 3.5 bar.
Before anyone does anything, we need to find a spec sheet and manufacturer (Siemens Deka) part#'s for stock R53 and JCW injectors. I'm only concerned with body length, and their flow at each pressure (3 and 3.5 bar). We already know that we need 15 or 20 (15 ideally) degree dual cone spray, high impedance, and EV1 connectors. From there, we can look at a Bosch injector spec sheet and select injectors that will work.
This may be helpful:
http://www.usrallyteam.com/content/products/injector/
Then select Bosch_Injector_data.xls from the menu.
If someone can give me static and dynamic flow values in gasoline, plus spray pattern and resistance, I'd be happy to find what we sell that is comparable.
Not having that, if someone actually got an injector to me I can take it to the lab and have it characterized. I'm currently in the process of redesigning the old pintle style injectors and replacing them with a more modern design for the internals. The result will be a far better injector. Easy enough to include one more part number since I have about 600 already.
#49
09-12-2013 | 12:28 PM
You actually need the dynamic flow (usually in mg/pulse@2.5ms pulse width) as well or you will be stuck with a lot of tuning hassles.
If someone can give me static and dynamic flow values in gasoline, plus spray pattern and resistance, I'd be happy to find what we sell that is comparable.
Not having that, if someone actually got an injector to me I can take it to the lab and have it characterized. I'm currently in the process of redesigning the old pintle style injectors and replacing them with a more modern design for the internals. The result will be a far better injector. Easy enough to include one more part number since I have about 600 already.
If someone can give me static and dynamic flow values in gasoline, plus spray pattern and resistance, I'd be happy to find what we sell that is comparable.
Not having that, if someone actually got an injector to me I can take it to the lab and have it characterized. I'm currently in the process of redesigning the old pintle style injectors and replacing them with a more modern design for the internals. The result will be a far better injector. Easy enough to include one more part number since I have about 600 already.
Don't you think that if it were critical to scrutinize down to the mg/pulse@2.5ms level when selecting upgraded injectors, that RC Engineering, Witchhunter, DeutschWerks, and even the spec sheets that Bosch themselves provide to customers, would offer this spec for customer reference ? This is certainly of interest, but may be very difficult to obtain. I'm looking into this now.
Regarding "static flow rates", those are the rates we're reciting when we say 36lb of gasoline per hour (~380cc) at 43.5 psi at 100% duty cycle. Static implies "wide-open", or, 100% IDC.
"Dynamic flow rate" is usually expressed by stating an injectors flow rate at a specific fuel pressure and duty cycle (other than 100% IDC). This can be extrapolated from what we know (static flow rate).
#50
09-12-2013 | 02:44 PM
4th Gear
Joined: Jan 2011
Posts: 478
Likes: 1
This is an honest question, not a raz:
Don't you think that if it were critical to scrutinize down to the mg/pulse@2.5ms level when selecting upgraded injectors, that RC Engineering, Witchhunter, DeutschWerks, and even the spec sheets that Bosch themselves provide to customers, would offer this spec for customer reference ? This is certainly of interest, but may be very difficult to obtain. I'm looking into this now.
Regarding "static flow rates", those are the rates we're reciting when we say 36lb of gasoline per hour (~380cc) at 43.5 psi at 100% duty cycle. Static implies "wide-open", or, 100% IDC.
"Dynamic flow rate" is usually expressed by stating an injectors flow rate at a specific fuel pressure and duty cycle (other than 100% IDC). This can be extrapolated from what we know (static flow rate).
Don't you think that if it were critical to scrutinize down to the mg/pulse@2.5ms level when selecting upgraded injectors, that RC Engineering, Witchhunter, DeutschWerks, and even the spec sheets that Bosch themselves provide to customers, would offer this spec for customer reference ? This is certainly of interest, but may be very difficult to obtain. I'm looking into this now.
Regarding "static flow rates", those are the rates we're reciting when we say 36lb of gasoline per hour (~380cc) at 43.5 psi at 100% duty cycle. Static implies "wide-open", or, 100% IDC.
"Dynamic flow rate" is usually expressed by stating an injectors flow rate at a specific fuel pressure and duty cycle (other than 100% IDC). This can be extrapolated from what we know (static flow rate).
Actually, the dynamic flow rate is provided on the spec sheet to customers (OE customers, that is) by every FI manufacturer and it matters for a very specific reason. An injector would never be specified without it. Dynamic flow cannot be extrapolated because it is affected by the opening valve lift height, the # of injector coil turns, coil resistance, and the materials used in the construction of the magnetic circuit responsible for opening and closing time. You can have 2 injectors with identical static flow rates and vastly different dynamic flow rates. The low dynamic flow injector will reside in Grandma's Caddy and the high dynamic will be in a Corvette. This is due to the driveability requirements of each vehicle and affects, importantly, throttle response. It is specified to a standard drive circuit which also matters because that will also affect open and close time.
The companies you mention are likely well aware of how injectors are specified.
For the sake of clarity, a Bosch customer drawing with flow parameters is attached, also a Delphi document (which refers to set point flow and pulse width)