You have several choices with kits. Let break them down as earlier posters have only touched on some points

Progressiveness
Most kits, all but Aquamist now, pulse a pump based on the signal you give it. This lowers the progressiveness of the kit to between 1.5:1 and 3:1. Aquamist, in the HFS systems, is between 10:1 to 100:1, depending on setup.

Signal
Most kits use boost as the source. Snow, Coolingmist, and Aquamist can use the fuel injector duty cycle, which is a more accurate representation of your actual fueling needs. Using boost pressure only will cause problems with tuning as your boost doesn't come in the same in every gear.

Price
Kits have gone up all around in the last few years. Prices have bottomed out on used and previously purchased kits. The Aquamist 1S that was $800 new can be picked up for less than $200. I did it twice. A NIB Aquamist HFS-3 sold last month for $400 on an RX7 board. Used HFS-3 and 6s can be had for $500 or so.

The only thing else that would be beneficial to you is if the Mini in another market had a bigger washer fluid tank (like the headlight washer equipped VWs with the 5.5L instead of a 3.5L tank)

In other words, if you are going to tune for it, use a system that will play the nicest with the rest of the car. If you are just going to use it for cooling and not tune, use whatever looks the best to you, just make sure that it is wired and ran correctly.

 

Not debating this, really, as I looked at PPS (Progressive Pump Speed) systems with skepticism, as I was worried about low-flow equating to low pressure, finally equating to poor atomization. But tell me this: On a 250psi Shurflo pump with a "start spray" set-point of ~10 psi, what pressure do you think that pump is then operating at ? It's pretty well accepted that even 60psi is enough pressure to atomize such a low viscosity fluid. I think we're splitting hairs here a bit. It's not like a quality PPS systems equates to using an aquarium pump.

Again, I'm not debating that a Pulsewidth Modulated Valve systems is better tech and functions better, but I wonder the significance for the enthusiast who is simply looking for IAT cooling for his daily driver.

 

On a washer modded 100psi pump (140psi on little nozzles) with the Devil’s Own controller pressure started at 40 psi. I have no way of knowing if that is the “start pressure” for the gauge/sensor I was using or not. I didn’t check with my CMGS as it took the gauge pod where the pressure gauge was fitted, but I know that I had it start at a lower percentage and stop at a lower percentage overall because of the pump I was using.
So yes, assuming no boost pressure, and no check valve, and a 40 psi (adequate) pressure, the nozzle would “fully” atomize.


Also of note is that the newer bypass pumps (aquatec, and the shurflo that AEM sold for a few months) are the only pumps that can fully take advantage of pulsing. Like I mentioned above, my pump could only pulse up to about 52% of the overall capabilities of the CMGS, as after that I would hit the pressure shutoff, meaning it's progressiveness was gone.

 

Hmm, ok. I think that a lot of the more popular kit vendors are advertising 200 psi+ pressure.

Sure, "competing" boost pressure and a check-valve will reduce atomization quality at lower pump pressures. I'm just curious as to where the threshold is; It's always been my biggest question regarding progressive systems.


I'm going to start experimenting a bit, and my first whack at it will be a pre-blower nozzle, installed in the intake tube that feeds the supercharger inlet. I have reservations about spraying directly before the intercooler, considering all the surface area inside a bar/plate intercooler for the mixture to cling to while passing through. Pre-blower will at least allow me to cool the charge at the source, and may increase boost pressure a tad due to better sealing and increased air density. I may just run a single stage non-progressive set-up, and use a smaller nozzle to avoid any low boost / low RPM bogging. Not ideal, but...

 

pre-IC is like pre-turbo. Go small so all of it can be vaporized. Pre-blower keeps the pressure differential lower, but with a roots blower that isn't really going to matter.
The simple math for the nozzles is pump pressure - check valve opening pressure - manufacaturer recommended minimum pressure. With my old pump at 100psi before the mod it was 25psi for check valve, 40 for nozzle, so I obviously wasn't getting a good spray pattern until much higher in the progression. Hence the reason I always set the pre-turbo nozzle to come at 75% or higher of the overall progression.

Using a check valve allows bleed off of pressure until the check valve's cracking pressure is met. With the small nozzles I used, even a 1-2 foot run of hose left a second or two of bleed off from 140psi. The main reason I went solenoid for preturbo.

 

Very good info there.

Regarding post-blower but pre-intercooler spraying on the R53 platform: Our supercharger outlet horn is fairly short, and I can't see full evaporative cooling taking place between the nozzle and the intercooler inlet. Maybe I'm underestimating what hot, pressurized air can accomplish in 6" of travel.

So what are your thoughts on a moderately sized nozzle in the intake tract, (pre-blower), and a smaller nozzle placed in the common spot for R53's, which is in the intercooler outlet horn, just before the throttle body. This way, the first nozzle cools the air charge going into the blower and ideally while it's in the blower as well, and the second nozzle cools further and supplies the 116 octane aspect of methanol and detonation suppression of water to the intake manifold and combustion chambers.

I'm curious as to how a set-up like I've noted above would affect both MAP sensors, as they are also integrated IAT sensors. One sensor is just before the blower, the other is post-throttle body, inside the intake manifold. It seems like you'd be covering all areas, and the car would be far less likely to pull timing at any point. People often forget about the first MAP / IAT on this car. On the other hand, I wonder if the water/meth mix would adversely affect that first MAP/IAT sensor, due to it not being evaporated before coming into contact.

 

You don't necessarily need all of the fluid evaporated by the time we get to the core. As restriction increases, so does velocity. High speed heat sink is all the TMIC is. Just letting the methanol remove the heat from the TMIC like the air should be.

The pre-blower would cool the supercharger, and also the air going into the TMIC, reducing the heat left behind after it's "cooled"

Water meth is only really known to affect the MAF, although you can argue that a wet IAT might throw off the "real" temperature of the incoming air. the drop in air temperature might change the pressure, but shouldn't cause an issue with the MAP sensor. The sealing of the SC might increase boost though.

 

so the best option would be to put in before the SC? since the Sc would stay cool, which would help with a 17% pulley

correct?

 

Right, but the method in which water/meth cools an air charge is evaporative cooling, with an emphasis on evaporative, and the reason why proper atomization is required. I still worry about introducing all that surface area for which the water/meth mix can now cling to.

Agreed. It would seem that with this method, you could cool the intake air before and while being compressed, and then spray the second stage for octane boost and detonation suppression, without worrying about charge air that is overly laden with water/meth, causing bogging. The first stage spray is fully vaporized, and just cooler air that that point.

Def affects MAF readings, but I need to look at the components in an IAT sensor. I'm assuming it's just an RTD... I assume that even after getting a water/meth mix on the sensor, that it would rapidly evaporate due to air rushing passed it quickly and quite regularly (wipe something with alcohol, then blow on it..notice how fast it evaporates).

 

Yes, from a performance standpoint, running both nozzles would be the best. On the other hand, and it might be rather important, I don't know what coating, if any, is on the blower, and what the mix of water and methanol would do to the coating, if there was one. GTP owners would mount nozzles right after the MAF and right before the blower as there was no other place to mount one, and some mentioned have "stripped" blowers, although I don't know if they were necessarily that way already, or if it was the water methanol that did it.

 

How fast the fluid evaporates in the IC or on the IAT is dependent on air temperature and the fluid being run. Ultimately, water before the blower or in the intake manifold in a direct port setup, and methanol before or after the IC for IAT reduction.

 

The years of the R53 which have the rotor coating, have a teflon coating. Teflon has an "Acceptable" compatibility rating with pure methanol, so it's reasonable to believe that diluted methanol is even less reactive with teflon. Interestingly enough, methanol is very much indeed corrosive to Aluminum. The only things saving folks from significant degradation of materials who spray meth, is that fact that this meth/water mix is not sitting idle for an extended period on the aluminum, as it's either evaporated by hot air in it it's travels, or ignited (meth) and vaporized (water) in the combustion chambers.

It's also dependent on it's ability to avoid pooling, and maintain a finely atomized state until evaporation. Collections of fluid to any extent are the enemy when you're talking evaporative cooling. Mist > Drops > Puddles / collections. This is why spraying 5" before the intercooler worries me. An intercooler layered with condensed water is not what we want here. This isn't as much of an issue when you have longer charge piping, but with the R53, we have very little distance from the blower outlet horn to the intercooler inlet, especially if you want to mount the nozzle somewhere serviceable.

Water, LB for LB, has more than twice the latent heat capacity of methanol. This makes it far superior than methanol in terms of IAT cooling. Methanol's main function here is it's octane rating, and how it allows boost and ignition advance to be pushed beyond normal limits. The more methanol you add to a mix, you lower the mix's ability to absorb heat.

 

^^Yes^^ Pooling is one of the main reasons many decide to just install nozzles post I/C & not worry too much about extra S/C or I/C cooling, for W/M or Nitrous, figuring that those items are actually running within spec anyway & just focusing on the charge closest to the combustion chamber.

In my case pre S/C is an absolute No No, the twin screw design of the Sprintex makes it far more likely to hydro-lock from the moisture.

 

i was hoping to do this to my car at some point, has anyone figured out where the best place to inject is?

 

From what I've seen the most popular nozzle position has been inside part of the bend on the post I/C horn, theory is by putting it on the inside of the bend it sprays directly into the path of the air as it flows around the outer side of the bend.

 

You can't hydrolock a blower, especially with fine mist. TONS of guys running Kenne Bell, Whipple, and other twin screw units, and spraying with very big nozzles pre-blower. Just think, the air is arguably at it's hottest while being compressed inside the blower. I can't imagine that anything other than complete vaporization of the mix occurring inside the blower. I've never heard of anyone ever hydrolocking a blower; the physics and nature of it's operation is just all wrong for hydrolocking. Don't take this wrong, I'm just saying that it's absolutely safe to inject pre-blower, whether Roots, Twin Screw, or Centrifugal. This isn't something we have to guess about; people have been doing it for a decade.

Check it out: http://www.alcoholinjectionsystems.c...icle_info.html

 

Pooling is only an issue if you run too much. Stick with a small nozzle with the right mix and pooling shouldn’t be a problem.
About mix, water can absorb more heat than alcohol. That is true, but water can only absorb heat when there is enough heat available for it to phase shift. You will notice that alcohol on your hand will cool it much faster than water, although water would ultimately cool your hand more. The water doesn’t (shouldn’t) spend enough time in the piping to phase change. The temperature is higher in the combustion chamber and the supercharger than it is in the intercooler and piping. Hence I said water for the SC and the direct port, and methanol for before and after the IC. Methanol for the pipes, water for the combustion chamber. Water is ultimately the better fluid, but most won’t tune the car to use the water. It was done, and required really lean combustion and good spark. Depending on the methanol for fueling and octane is a slippery slope, and you should have a failsafe if you tune your engine to depend on it.
As an example, on my last car, I had a nozzle in the IC outlet, about 4 inches from the TB. With less than 30% methanol, the outlet would not noticeably change temperature. Above 40% with the same sized nozzle, the outlet would be cool to the touch. The IM and TB were too thick for cool to the touch, but there was a distinct difference between even the IC and IM, even though they were but 1 inch separated.

 

Mfg's recomendation, according to them there are also concerns with aluminum degradation from the Meth, so I'm not going to risk it, just going to do post I/C & leave it @ that. Between it & the Nitrous everything should be well cool enough.

 

You could always use the meth as the wet side of your nitrous kit.

 

Considered that at one time, but I've over complicated the system enough already, figured off & on the bottle tuning would be easier just using fuel. But I would absolutely do it that way were I using it in a race only capacity.

 

I'd looked into for a while for an N/A application, ls1 or 4v. Run the hose to the fuel side, use an aquatec pump set at less than 170psi, and hook up it's power to the nitrous activation switch. Double the nozzle and tune from there. It's supposed to be much more forgiving of ratios than gas.

 

Went back & looked at some of the research I did early on when deciding how to put my system together & found the info that sway'd me to do it the way I am, a couple of concerns with running Meth on the fuel side of my Nitrous setup had to do with selenoid -vs- electronic controllers and what methanol would do to seals not designed for it. (I wanted electronic controlers over selenoids if possible) plus the concerns of heat, not overall in the chamber, but actually having enough of it to properly burn the Nitrous. Mixing Fuel & Nitrous together at the nozzle tip assures that the Nitrous will burn better (basicly just adding extra fuel) & then adding a secondary W/M system to cool & enrich the overall charge, just seemed like a simpler & better way to go.
That's why I opted for both, my Wet Nitrous setup & adding the Howerton Hfs-4. This way I can use either or both and get the control over the W/M that the Howerton System gives, either on or off the bottle. But again, in a race only situation, where you were on both, all the time, I could see where it could be overall less expensive & worked around just fine.

Either way w/ the bottle + tank, I've run out of boot space....

 

Understood, but you do realize what your IC, associated outlet horn, and entire intake manifold are made of as well, right ? Cast Aluminum. Sure, they're cheaper to replace than a Sprintex if need-be, but it's all the same. Worth mentioning is that the actual rotors on these blowers are not Aluminum, only the housing is. Meth will have no time to even affect the blower's interior, considering the temps inside will vaporize it almost immediately. Cool set-up BTW.

 

So I am going to join the Meth Head Club soon enough; I got a sweet deal on a new in box CoolingMist System with the Progressive Controller.

I will admit that I really wanted the AquaMist System, but for the 25% of what the AquaMist cost I am going to have to try out this CoolingMist System.

So here is the Plan so far:

I am going to install the CoolingMist Controller / Gauge on the A-pillar
(now I know what you all like to say, "Oh what about the AirBags" well the answer is that they will still be there and functional. There is a tether attached to that A-Pillar Panel from the factory that will be retained)

I will also be installing the Innovate AFR and the AEM Water/Meth Failsafe Gauge.

I will be fiber-glassing the A-Pillar and Painting to match the factory.

I plan on installing the Pump and Reservoir Tank, in the Rear of the car, I have a Battery Box from another Mini, I am going to try to make a box that is a rectangle half the size of the battery box and mount it to the left of that battery box (Drivers Side). So it will be recessed just like the Battery in the boot.

So once it is all installed, I may need some support on the setting up of the system; I plan on running 50/50 mix, but I am open to suggestions. I can get Meth from the local Race Shop and distilled water from the grocery.

And in the end I will have the thing tuned for the kit, I have the RMW remote tuning module, but i have to get it working and setup first.

I plan on basically setting the unit up as a single stage, as it only has inputs for Boost and MAF and my understanding is that Boost on a SC Car is not going to be easy to setup on a progressive unit. So I was thinking I would do a single stage type setup at approximately the 80% mark?

I would also like to know where you think is best for the nozzle to be placed, I am going to take out the parts to tap the plumbing and would only like to do both the Boost Port and the WMI port at the same time.

 

Where is the best place to put the spray jet?

What is the best size to run for about 200WHP?