Drivetrain Manic Motorsport brings us N18 owners OBD II Tuning! Solution is finally here!
#2251
#2253
From the ideal gas law: number (moles) of oxygen molecules = PV/RT
I'd imagine that the affects of altitude are much more pronounced for naturally aspirated cars.
#2255
And this is why we use mass flow fate for everything instead of psi in the real world. too many variances in the system to just talk about psi differences.
#2256
Boost pressures at altitude are different.
Atmospheric pressure at sea level ~14.7 psi.
Atmospheric pressure at 4000 ft. ~12.7 psi.
Manifold pressure - atmospheric pressure = boost pressure. So.....
Sea level boost pressure of 10 psi = 24.7 psi manifold pressure.
4000 ft boost pressure of 10 psi = 22.7 psi.
The general rule of thumb is that engine output will drop ~3% for every 1000 feet above sea level as there is roughly 3% less oxygen in the same volume of air due to the lower density.
Atmospheric pressure at sea level ~14.7 psi.
Atmospheric pressure at 4000 ft. ~12.7 psi.
Manifold pressure - atmospheric pressure = boost pressure. So.....
Sea level boost pressure of 10 psi = 24.7 psi manifold pressure.
4000 ft boost pressure of 10 psi = 22.7 psi.
The general rule of thumb is that engine output will drop ~3% for every 1000 feet above sea level as there is roughly 3% less oxygen in the same volume of air due to the lower density.
#2258
#2259
I think runs the JMTC Dom 47mm
mQubed Motorsport, Manic Tuning Dealer
mQubed Motorsport, Manic Tuning Dealer
__________________
2013 GP2 #295, 270whp/310wtq, KO4 47mm Turbo, 18" NM Wheels, Alta intake, Manic Stage III+, HFS-3 Meth, 30% E85 Blend, Forged IC, Alta Hot Pipe, P&P/Ceramic Exhaust Manifold, m3 Extreme Ceramic DP, Vibrant mid res, 4" Double walled Tips, WMW/KW V3 CO, Alta Rear CA, CREE Fogs, Black out F/R Rings and Gas Cap, M7 CF Front Splitter, and No Stickers. MORE TO COME!! Previous 04Triple Black 17% Alta, MM Air/H2O, CAI, OBX Header, FBT Head, Shrick Cam, 234whp
2013 GP2 #295, 270whp/310wtq, KO4 47mm Turbo, 18" NM Wheels, Alta intake, Manic Stage III+, HFS-3 Meth, 30% E85 Blend, Forged IC, Alta Hot Pipe, P&P/Ceramic Exhaust Manifold, m3 Extreme Ceramic DP, Vibrant mid res, 4" Double walled Tips, WMW/KW V3 CO, Alta Rear CA, CREE Fogs, Black out F/R Rings and Gas Cap, M7 CF Front Splitter, and No Stickers. MORE TO COME!! Previous 04Triple Black 17% Alta, MM Air/H2O, CAI, OBX Header, FBT Head, Shrick Cam, 234whp
#2261
i know it is a pain but have you put the stock turbo back on it and see how it runs? Remember the stock turbo will only hold boost in the upper gears ( 4th on ) till around 4500 rpms and then it runs out of breathe. Doesn't matter what tune you have on it the turbo is just out of air .
If you put a new turbo on and you have slowed down from a stock turbo then I would look at what has changed. Your manic tune is pretty much the same "safe" tune he sends everyone for a base start.
I had stage2+ and just changed the turbo and picked up major hp without even going to stage3+ tune due to the new turbo being able to keep pressure/flow all the way to red line ....
This video is just for information only.... But there are plenty out there to watch that kind of has the same info ...
If you put a new turbo on and you have slowed down from a stock turbo then I would look at what has changed. Your manic tune is pretty much the same "safe" tune he sends everyone for a base start.
I had stage2+ and just changed the turbo and picked up major hp without even going to stage3+ tune due to the new turbo being able to keep pressure/flow all the way to red line ....
This video is just for information only.... But there are plenty out there to watch that kind of has the same info ...
#2262
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: At 8200 over sea level
Posts: 405
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i know it is a pain but have you put the stock turbo back on it and see how it runs? Remember the stock turbo will only hold boost in the upper gears ( 4th on ) till around 4500 rpms and then it runs out of breathe. Doesn't matter what tune you have on it the turbo is just out of air .
If you put a new turbo on and you have slowed down from a stock turbo then I would look at what has changed. Your manic tune is pretty much the same "safe" tune he sends everyone for a base start.
I had stage2+ and just changed the turbo and picked up major hp without even going to stage3+ tune due to the new turbo being able to keep pressure/flow all the way to red line ....
This video is just for information only.... But there are plenty out there to watch that kind of has the same info ...
The Ebay Turbo Lie & Trim Calculation - YouTube
If you put a new turbo on and you have slowed down from a stock turbo then I would look at what has changed. Your manic tune is pretty much the same "safe" tune he sends everyone for a base start.
I had stage2+ and just changed the turbo and picked up major hp without even going to stage3+ tune due to the new turbo being able to keep pressure/flow all the way to red line ....
This video is just for information only.... But there are plenty out there to watch that kind of has the same info ...
The Ebay Turbo Lie & Trim Calculation - YouTube
No, I havent tried that yet. I think I can throw in the old JCW turbo and see what happents. But you mean leaving in the stage 3 tune?
#2263
I would consult your tuner on that .
Do you have the switch ? I would think map a or b would be okay cause your jcw turbo might can achieve target boost on A map. B or C it's prob going to pin the wastegate cause your not going to be able to make the target boost, the part I'm not sure of is will the ecu hold timing back cause you have not hit the target. The load table comes in effect as well...
So I would check with your tuner cause I don't want to say yes and something happens but I personally think you will be okay .
As far as altitude, remember back in the day you had to jet the carburetor if you where going up or down in altitude, when fuel injection came out it corrected for altitude using MAP and BARO sensors. Yes the air is thinner and yes performance will drop some but you still should have a good running motor.
I did trends last weekend going from 2k to 8500.
At full throttle map sensor was:
8k- 66
2k- 75
Load table
8k- 69
2k- 93
MAF
8k-17
2k- 24
Boost
8k- 21
2k- 23
Now around 4-5k altitude I had some boost swing but the road was short and a few of my logs where 3rd gear
Yes I could butt tell that the car was not at its peak performance but the car still spun the tires with 3rd gear punches.
Now my standalone boost gauge was going negative at idle cause it's not compensate (I think I saw -5 at 8k)so if I was watching my gauge it was showing 17 psi full throttle at 8k altitude
Take the -5 plus the 17 and that's a span of 22 which is what my logs showed. The ecu will compensate.
Do you have the switch ? I would think map a or b would be okay cause your jcw turbo might can achieve target boost on A map. B or C it's prob going to pin the wastegate cause your not going to be able to make the target boost, the part I'm not sure of is will the ecu hold timing back cause you have not hit the target. The load table comes in effect as well...
So I would check with your tuner cause I don't want to say yes and something happens but I personally think you will be okay .
As far as altitude, remember back in the day you had to jet the carburetor if you where going up or down in altitude, when fuel injection came out it corrected for altitude using MAP and BARO sensors. Yes the air is thinner and yes performance will drop some but you still should have a good running motor.
I did trends last weekend going from 2k to 8500.
At full throttle map sensor was:
8k- 66
2k- 75
Load table
8k- 69
2k- 93
MAF
8k-17
2k- 24
Boost
8k- 21
2k- 23
Now around 4-5k altitude I had some boost swing but the road was short and a few of my logs where 3rd gear
Yes I could butt tell that the car was not at its peak performance but the car still spun the tires with 3rd gear punches.
Now my standalone boost gauge was going negative at idle cause it's not compensate (I think I saw -5 at 8k)so if I was watching my gauge it was showing 17 psi full throttle at 8k altitude
Take the -5 plus the 17 and that's a span of 22 which is what my logs showed. The ecu will compensate.
#2265
Going to manic stage 3
Hi Guys, I currently run stage 3 on the AP but really want to upgrade to manics stage 3 tune, I live in Indianapolis and unfortunately there is no manic dealers on the Midwest so I will have to send the ECU to manic, would you guys recommend doing this? I don't like having to take the ECU out of my car
#2266
I gotta agree with RidinDirty --- turbo is everything at high altitudes. I'm only at 4500' but have (had) a big Garrett and never had an issue with losing boost at high RPM's. I held 30PSI all the way to 7200RPM --- from -3 to +27PSI on my external boost gauge.
There will still be a noticeable performance change between sea level and "high" altitudes, even with consistent boost pressures. I have to agree with Cerenkov about oxygen --- "The oxygen concentration remains about the same at higher altitudes but the absolute amount of oxygen molecules does significantly decrease. This will affect the performance of the engine." I don't know what else could be causing the performance loss at elevation --- my turbo is (was) not controlled by the ECU --- waste gate has a Manual Boost Controller (positive pressure, not vacuum), and DV (BOV) is externally set for a 10psi differential.
There will still be a noticeable performance change between sea level and "high" altitudes, even with consistent boost pressures. I have to agree with Cerenkov about oxygen --- "The oxygen concentration remains about the same at higher altitudes but the absolute amount of oxygen molecules does significantly decrease. This will affect the performance of the engine." I don't know what else could be causing the performance loss at elevation --- my turbo is (was) not controlled by the ECU --- waste gate has a Manual Boost Controller (positive pressure, not vacuum), and DV (BOV) is externally set for a 10psi differential.
#2267
Hi Guys, I currently run stage 3 on the AP but really want to upgrade to manics stage 3 tune, I live in Indianapolis and unfortunately there is no manic dealers on the Midwest so I will have to send the ECU to manic, would you guys recommend doing this? I don't like having to take the ECU out of my car
#2268
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: At 8200 over sea level
Posts: 405
Likes: 0
Received 3 Likes
on
3 Posts
i know it is a pain but have you put the stock turbo back on it and see how it runs? Remember the stock turbo will only hold boost in the upper gears ( 4th on ) till around 4500 rpms and then it runs out of breathe. Doesn't matter what tune you have on it the turbo is just out of air .
If you put a new turbo on and you have slowed down from a stock turbo then I would look at what has changed. Your manic tune is pretty much the same "safe" tune he sends everyone for a base start.
I had stage2+ and just changed the turbo and picked up major hp without even going to stage3+ tune due to the new turbo being able to keep pressure/flow all the way to red line ....
This video is just for information only.... But there are plenty out there to watch that kind of has the same info ...
The Ebay Turbo Lie & Trim Calculation - YouTube
If you put a new turbo on and you have slowed down from a stock turbo then I would look at what has changed. Your manic tune is pretty much the same "safe" tune he sends everyone for a base start.
I had stage2+ and just changed the turbo and picked up major hp without even going to stage3+ tune due to the new turbo being able to keep pressure/flow all the way to red line ....
This video is just for information only.... But there are plenty out there to watch that kind of has the same info ...
The Ebay Turbo Lie & Trim Calculation - YouTube
#2270
If you want to private message me I can tell you my experience with " a well known vender " on this site ...
MAF. - mass air flow. What are you using for data logging? I think my stock turbo ( non jcw ) maxed out around 19lbs/min , with the size turbo you have and it's built correctly you should max out the MAF which is 25lbs/min . With my stage 3 my MAF is maxed to redline.
MAF. - mass air flow. What are you using for data logging? I think my stock turbo ( non jcw ) maxed out around 19lbs/min , with the size turbo you have and it's built correctly you should max out the MAF which is 25lbs/min . With my stage 3 my MAF is maxed to redline.
#2271
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: At 8200 over sea level
Posts: 405
Likes: 0
Received 3 Likes
on
3 Posts
If you want to private message me I can tell you my experience with " a well known vender " on this site ...
MAF. - mass air flow. What are you using for data logging? I think my stock turbo ( non jcw ) maxed out around 19lbs/min , with the size turbo you have and it's built correctly you should max out the MAF which is 25lbs/min . With my stage 3 my MAF is maxed to redline.
MAF. - mass air flow. What are you using for data logging? I think my stock turbo ( non jcw ) maxed out around 19lbs/min , with the size turbo you have and it's built correctly you should max out the MAF which is 25lbs/min . With my stage 3 my MAF is maxed to redline.
#2272
I use Palmer so I can't tell you if it was logged, but with Palmer you don't have to have it on the log during the run, you can go back and add it.
If your going to play in the game go ahead and look at Palmer, under 100 bucks and you can get the software, cable,wifi and log it yourself. Also reset codes etc. one thing I learned if you are having issues is to put the stock tune back in and go put 15-20 miles on it and come back and look at faults. It will capture more codes in stock than with tune in. I was having sputtering issues and could find anything, popped it back in stock and got a code for #2 misfire, turned out I had water from when I washed the engine sitting around my plug, put the shop vacuum on it and everything went away. So it's helpful to have and cheap.
Use laptop, phone, tablet etc ...
If your going to play in the game go ahead and look at Palmer, under 100 bucks and you can get the software, cable,wifi and log it yourself. Also reset codes etc. one thing I learned if you are having issues is to put the stock tune back in and go put 15-20 miles on it and come back and look at faults. It will capture more codes in stock than with tune in. I was having sputtering issues and could find anything, popped it back in stock and got a code for #2 misfire, turned out I had water from when I washed the engine sitting around my plug, put the shop vacuum on it and everything went away. So it's helpful to have and cheap.
Use laptop, phone, tablet etc ...
#2273