Interesting thread. I hope it is allowed to continue. As a person who has always enjoyed cars, working on them and improving their performance but also a person who enjoys skiing and out doors in general, I think you have hit the mark with each of your posts.

 

The issue in my case is $$$. My down pipe broke so now I have two choices; 1, pay $200 for a header or $600 - $800 for a (lesser) header with cat. It is frustrating that adding the part we are legally required to have jacks up the price so much. Personally, if I can find an economical way to keep the cat I will, if I can not...

I would be interested in seeming some true numbers on the emissions produced by one vehicle over a race weekend vs the same for a comutor car without the cat.

me

 

Try posting a wanted ad for a stock, cat'ted down pipe and see if someone who has removed theirs will sell it to you for $200.

 

I just sent you a PM I have my stock down pipe just taking space in my shop. Let me know if you want it.

 

Everything has a bi-product when made - , From the skies to the sail boat to the scuba gear you enjoy as "outdoor clean" time. At some point it was venting major fumes while curing.
I do my parts where not to many do there's. Keeping the lake clean, picking up trash on the sidewalk etc. I guess I don't do my parts where others do as I mash the peddle in my truck and cut the Prius as short as I can cause its against the law to run them in the ditch for doing 48 MPH in the fast lane with a 65 MPH posted sign all so they can post on facebook they beat the Johnston's by .321894 MPG avg driving up the coast Saturday...
You say 10-20 hp , have YOU felt 10-20 hp diff in your mini ? you would want it all the time....lol
Yes I rev mine and use all she has every time I drive it........

 

HP numbers sell cars and threads for DME Tuning events.....Torque wins races.

It's not HP you feel in the seat of your pants when mashing the pedal. Would like to see torque specs gains for this mod before and after with no other work done....

 

I feel your pain with the Priuses (or is it Priui?). Try a back country road where they slow down going uphill and speed up going down. Nice having a MINI with a bit of power to pass...

Also, "doing your part" is great. If everyone did just what you do, that this place would be really nice to live in.

That said, this thread is about removing the cat, not just driving quickly and expending extra fuel. I think that is part of owning a MINI. Some of us even track theirs to the tune of 15 mpg, but "justify" it by getting more than twice the mileage of most of the cars out there.

The question could be asked, have you removed cats on your MINI? If you have, does it go with other mods, such as a tune and why not go to a high flow cat? I am curious, not being critical.

My following comments are not aimed at anyone in particular, just my thoughts on the subject.

As for an otherwise stock MINI do you think you really get 10 - 20 Hp just by removing the cat? That might be worth it (aside from the other issues being discussed here) for a stock 172 hp S (160 whp if lucky). But if someone already has their MINI tuned 230+ whp, 10 hp would be less noticeable, so why do it? If having the 10 HP is that important then there is the option to get a high flow cat and get almost as much benefit. Or as suggested above, there are other car options; a WRX or Evo come to mind. With or without a cat a MINI isn't going to best those cars.

I've flown through the brown haze that covers LA at times. I seen Salt Lake City encased in a brown cocoon and all the while people complain that their kids can't go out an play because of it. A MINI without a cat is going to add, what, 50 or 100 times more pollutants to the air than a MINI with a cat. And, what? for 10 hp. While it might be thought of as "it's just me", a few "just me's" will add up quickly, especially when you consider that MINI owners are not the only ones removing the cats from their cars.

 

The problem is when getting tuned you are required to have a catless or high flow catted down pipe. So for me to get my 230hp tune I need to remove that cat in the DP. Like I said previously I still have my other two cats in the exhaust just removed my stock down pipe for a catless one. The whole reason is so I can get my tune. The argument for a high flow cat DP could be made but it still throws a check engine light so why spend twice as much for the DP with the same effect as my catless. If I could safely run my tune with my catted DP I probably would have but need the free flowing DP to safely run my tune. It's worth it to me to gain the huge power increases I've seen from my tune.

 

What an appropriate handle... Though I agree with you on the Priuses.

Essentially what you're saying is that a surfer can't be an environmentalist, because the foam and glass and resin that went into making his board all gave off some fumes while curing, and the glue that holds his wetsuit together emitted VOCs. Really, is naked on a driftwood plank the only way to have any cred?

Thanks for doing your part to help pick up the environment, we need more people to do that.

 

It has been interesting reading the responses. I'm glad that I'm not the only one who thinks removing the cat from your daily driver is a bad idea. I think that it is impossible to discuss this topic without getting into politics a little bit, so I hope the moderators will cut us some slack so long as the political points are relevant.

Saying "Other pollution sources are much worse, the increase from removing my cat is insignificant in the big picture" is just trying to rationalize your own actions. It's like the kid who gets in trouble for graffiti pointing at someone else and saying "he did more than me!"
Doesn't make it right.

Following some of the arguments to their logical (and absurd) end point, we all pollute just by waking up in the morning, having a cup of coffee and brushing our teeth. How much methane may have been produced by the cow that became the cheeseburger I had for lunch, or the soot from the diesel truck that carried the lettuce and tomatoes from the farm isn't the point. The point is that by removing your cat, you are choosing to spew more pollution than a car from the 1970s, and saying that "xxx pollutes too" is just an attempt to rationalize and distract from that.

I thought of a new analogy for those who argue that the increase in emissions from one catless car is insignificant. It's like voting. You have just one vote out of millions, but you have to get out there and vote along with everyone else who feels the same way you do if you want to change things. Do you think that your vote doesn't matter? Don't forget the 2000 Presidential election, where a few hundred people either staying home or voting in a few counties in Florida could have changed the outcome. By removing your cat, you're voting to reverse the last 40-50 years of progress in cleaning up the air we all breathe. My political leanings are libertarian, in general I'm not in favor of more government and more regulation, but this is one place where it is essential because history proves that individuals won't do it themseleves. Short term thinking and the economic incentive wins out over the long term consequences.

The air in LA, and other major population centers in the the world, is much better today than it was 40-50 years ago because of fuel economy standards and emissions regulations. One by one the polluting vehicles were replaced, and one by one the industrial emitters were cleaned up. Industry kicked and screamed that it wasn't possible and would cost too much, then got to work and made it happen. We're all better off for it. Just try to imagine what our air quality would be like with the population growth and without the reductions in emissions.

 

I think that's a decent analogy. I personally have never seen the reason to run catless downpipes on the street. All of my cars still have their cats (except for the one that never came with one). My STI makes plenty of power with a catted aftermarket downpipe. I will agree that it sucks that catted downpipes are so expensive but modifying cars isn't cheap. I'd be curious to see dyno comparisons between a catted and catless downpipe on a mini. I would bet the difference is actually pretty minimal. 10whp difference? It's not a large difference on the STI which makes quite a bit more power than the mini.

 

In agreement with OP on all points.

How does a car without the catalytic converter (or one less) pass a state's emissions test for auto inspection, or doesn't your state have one? (Assuming NJ and CA have the most stringent requirements).

 

The fact remains that for the small amount of people removing the catalytics from their cars the impact IS insignificant. Say that the average car releases 25 lb of NOX per year, multiplying that by 250 million cars in the USA gives 6.25 BILLION pounds of NOX. Now how many people are removing their cats for all cars and not just MINI? A tenth of a tenth of a tenth of a tenth of a percent? I don't really know but you should be able to see where I'm going.

I admit that if everyone did then yes that would pose a problem but that is obviously not happening and I don't see it ever happening because it makes the car stink and frankly most people don't want to modify their cars. I personally won't run a catless system. I tried it and to me it does smell and I don't like it (and it's a little to loud for me).

Catless cars are not to blame for the smog woes that is prevalent in some areas. Its probably got more to due with the 2 MILLION MILLION miles driven per year in the US.

 

Other 2 cats the MINI only has 2 and the one in the down pipe is the one that counts in most cases. The one in the exhaust pipe is for MINI to get the super clean rating. This wasn't on all MINIs earlier on.

And I am sure I have seen high flow cat'ed down pipe that would not throw cells.

 

This is one of the toughest to argue against. And you have a valid argument that the major cause of problems is cause by the millions of miles traveled in this country. But then doesn't the question become, why add to problem, even if it is just a little bit?

But likely this isn't just an issue of just one or 2 people doing it. And when you add up all of the MINIs, Fords, Chevys, Toyotas, etc that have their cat's removed and you multiply that times, say 50 or 100, for how much more pollution they are putting out and figure the equivalent number of cars on the road that is, it then becomes significant. It's like the "voting" analogy above and like that one, I had a friend who lost by 14 votes. Everyone counts.

Then again, maybe we are all driving the wrong car...

I mean the Tesla not the Hellcat...

 

I was under the impression there are 2 cats in the exhaust and one in the downpipe. I did find high flow catted downpipes but no one could guarantee they were not going throw a CEL so if a high flow cat is going to throw a CEL than what good is it doing and why would I spend twice as much for a product that isn't even guaranteed to work. It didn't end up making a difference because my tune took care of the CEL. If I could have tuned my car without removing the stock DP I would have but that wasn't an option. That's why I say it's not just a 10hp gain from swapping to a catless DP it's the difference from stage 1 to stage 2 and that is pretty considerable especially with further mods in the near future that could not be done with the stock DP.

 

There is one Cat in the down pipe which is surrounded by O2 sensors. There is a small one in the exhaust pipe, just down from the connection to the down pipe. The next thing in the exhaust pipe is the resonator and then at the end is the muffler. At least that is what has been on my 2 Ss. The second cat is outside of the sensing range for the computer so removing it won't throw a Cel, but in this discussion it is a really gray area to remove it. Most cat-back exhausts will remove it. Not sure if in all states that is legal; probably not in CA.

I did a quick search for high flow down pipes for MINI Coopers and came up with Milltek:
http://www.emnotek.com/p-4331-mini-c...downpipes.aspx
they claim to not throw a cel but have no "proof" to that claim. Othershigh flow cat'ted DPs that I looked at come with a warning of possibly throwing a cel. As for MINIs themselves, the JCW comes with a different down pipe/cat than does the S. Is that possibly a higher flow cat? Something to think about.

Interestingly enough I also came across older NAM post on this subject and some people suggested that the 10 hp thing wasn't worth the money and some even went so far as to suggest spending that money (for the down pipe) on suspension improvements...

 

You could apply this to nearly anything in life.

To stay with the environmental theme, a better analogy would be recycling aluminum cans or plastic bottles. I tend to deposit the majority (99.9%) of my cans/bottles into the recycling bin, BUT every so often I do not. This is insignificant in the grand scheme of things just like some people removing their catalytic converters.

Or another...

If every little bit helps, why are we even modifying our cars for more power. Would it not be a better idea to modify them to facilitate hyper-miling? Install super skinny tires with extremely low rolling resistance. Maybe save a few barrels of oil over the life of the car.

We all know it's not the absolute best for the environment, but isn't best to just focus on your life and what you are doing instead of condemning others for their actions, especially insignificant ones. Nobody here is perfect and voicing your "disapproval" is rather condescending. (this last bit was not directed at anyone in particular)

 

As I said, this is a tough one to argue.

It is interesting that a lot people responding to this thread state, like you do, to doing their part; recycling, picking up litter etc. Maybe this is why we drive a MINI in the first place. They are one of the few cars that are really fun, are unique and they have a small environmental "foot print". Those were some of reasons we bought our first one and why I now have a S instead of something like a 'Vette. So I guess it is not to hard to feel it is OK to not be hyper-miling or, even, to track the car. None of us are perfect, let along be caught driving Prius (or should I have said that the other way around...)

But to the questions here, as you can tell I would prefer cats not be removed just for the modest Hp gain. Am I going to voice a "condescending disapproval" if I found one remove or heard someone was going to do it? No. I am just voicing an opinion to a question that was asked with what I think is a convincing justification. Maybe, ultimately, it is not convincing to you but, yours, while understandable, isn't overwhelmingly convincing to me. But I don't think that makes either of us truly right or truly wrong. It seems we all do our part in general, and then we also take a few "liberties". I track my MINI; someone else pulls their cat off. Which is worse? I don't think we want to go down path. But even with the "liberties" I take, it doesn't change my opinion to this question.

 

I also don't like totally catless cars including the cars that are not required to have cats due to age or whatnot. I do have a high-flow cat though. It's 100 cel versus the stock 400 cel. That's my compromise. lol.

The part about "condescending disapproval" was directed at members that will pop into a thread solely to express their disapproval about someone removing a cat. That's tiresome in my opinion.

 

Motor on...

 

Thought I might toss in this nugget. I am running a catless DP with a tune from Manic and passed VA emissions sniffer test not more than a week ago. Didn't pass by much but it passed, as far as I am concerned its emissions compliant. Equipment on the car should not matter at all as long as it can pass the required emissions levels required of a car its age.

 

Very well said SlingsDogs , I have read some people have passed with out the cat . I know its all about which state you live in..... good point...

Just as well Eddie07S , I have other cars that all have the cat with full exhaust.