I haven't posted in awhile, and don't post often, but felt compelled to throw out an opinion regarding the ECU modifications now available. Firstly, I have an '03 Cooper S with various modifications, including CAI, 15% reduction pulley, and exhaust. To me, the next logical step is an ECU upgrade. However, the MINI ECU market with its supporters of various types of ECU mods is confusing at best, and in some respects, downright scary for someone who wants reliable and verifiable gains. The ECU options I have followed most closely have been the following: Unichip, Giac, AMD OneClick, and most recently, the MTH option. Perhaps I was hoping for the Holy Grail of ECU mods, but the MINI numbers as a whole are quite modest and a bit disappointing.

This brings me to my next point - testimonials are anecdotal evidence at best, are completely unscientific, and often affected by the desire to perceive positive results, especially after dropping ANY amount of money for a specific product. Show me the money! I cannot understand how some manufacturers will not either share or subject their product to some form of dyno testing, in-house, independent, whatever. I don't know if I want to drop any amount of my limited income on a product that was either not thoroughly tested during development or such results are not being disclosed. Redirecting potential customers to testimonials, or worse, suggesting that we are just going to have to buy it and try it ourselves and will see how great the product is, is a cheap trick and to me, unpersuasive.

Of the specific options noted above, my observations are as follows: (1) Unichip - best claimed results with some actual evidence to support the numbers, albeit numbers that were questioned by some on this site, I respect Randy Webb, and his involvement with the product is a positive to me, but an expensive option with a few early hiccups; (2) GIAC - I know I am beating a dead horse here, but a long wait, lots of hype and anticipation, very modest results, reasonable price; (3) AMD - to me, if it produces results, a very attractive option in both its ease of use and price, however, no data that I am aware of from either the company or supporters of this product (I thought that way back in the spring, GunmetalSracer or someone claimed that dyno results were imminent, and were going to be posted. Did I miss them?). A bit troubling responses to consumer questions from the US distributor in some of the threads - I don't buy the "were damned if we do, damned if we don't" theme, so we are not going to post any data because it is subject to criticism. I am an interested potential customer - show me some data, give me a reason to give you $499; (4) MTH - nice price, big claims from a supporter, some clarification on crank v. wheel horsepower numbers being put out there, but no data, and a sketchy sounding transaction with a caveat emptor feel, at least to me.

Am I alone in my observations and concerns? I love my MINI and only want the best bang for the buck. If there are other alternatives with good numbers backed by some form of scientific evidence, let me know. It would be nice to see some entity, such as the relatively new GoMINI magazine, do a comparison test of several ECU options and publish the results.

If I in any way have stepped on toes or upset anyone, you should know that I sincerely do not care. I just would like to make a truly informed decision before making the ECU modification leap.

 

i think it can be said that most ecus does very little.. all do the same thing anyways...

i completely understand your concerns.. one reason i went with mth cuze ecu does very little, and im not paying 700 bucks for the unichip or powerchip simply it's got 'claimed' hp... i've been running mth for a couple of days and there's a noticeable difference... the mth's price just justifies the expense without risking a large sum of money that can be better spent elsewhere

if i remember also is that an ecu update would benefit a car without the pulley more so than one with the pulley...

in the end all chips do is redoing the timing... i doubt one gains more than the others so much there;d be a dramatic difference

 

despite the sort of shabbiness of mth's site, there are several "trusted" members at nam that have puchased and installed the ecu. There are those who say there is no difference, and there are those who say "the car just keeps getting stronger". So take that for what its worth, but so far there have been no reports of anyone getting shafted by franz. In fact, most have said his turn around time is quite excellent (some people got the program back the same day).

as far as i'm concerned, i dont see any real competitor to the GIAC and the MTH and also i believe Dinan's chip is about $300 and dinan is fairly trusted as a tuner.

regardless, you're right, caveat emptor

 

resipsamcs,
Based on your present mods there is no burning reason ( if your ECU software is working smoothly enough) to upgrade your ECU anytime soon. Why not wait and let the smoke and hype clear. Without independent comparison testing you cannot easily make clear sense out of all of the known information.

Are there others just as concerned as you? Sure. I have stock ECU software and I am still waiting. While you are waiting, have you already looked at upgrading your suspension, wheels, and brakes? You already have power mods so these other upgrades help to balance out your performance.

As for GIAC, I don't think I would classify the results as modest. The torque gains are significant and since you have the 15% reduction pulley, that would be a reasonable choice at a good price. Having the option to do an easy install would be worth the wait. Yeah, waiting is tough.

Finally if you really want to transfer power to the ground then as a big upgrade there is the Quaife LSD, lightweight RDR flywheel, and racing clutch.
It's not cheap at over $2500 but all that power you have will not be wasted in wheel spin. Not sure if you want to go that far.

 

a point or two of clarification:

Ky-rian: in addition to timing changes, the chips offer fuel re-mapping for WOT conditions, altered load/temp/fuel factors parameters, redline limit changes, and probably more.

As far as testing goes, if the tests are not done on the same car, same dyno, they are not going to be directly comparable. On the other hand, if a body of testing results has been determined from a variety of cars, one ought to be able to generalize.

A lot depends on who you trust to first, collect data accurately and second, to be clear and objective about it.

As far as the Unichip, the data has never been clear and the reports either seat-of-the-pants subjective, or numerically murky, never clairifying the conditions of measurement. Users seem to like it though. Randy is completely trustrworthy and obviously supports it, but he did make similar endorsements for the Evo and Powerchip, which tends to water down his recommendation.

The Giac from Helix seems to offer the most credibility. Helix has run over 500 Minis on his own dyno, so he is more familiar with the Mini on the dyno than anyone else. He has also been using that same test bed to assist in developing the Giac. You won't find a more substantial database.

Sooner or later, Helix will be able to run a Unichipped car on his dyno and maybe we can cross-refernce results.

 

resipsamcs,

I have purchased the MTH product from Franz and couldn't be happier. I received the product, as advertised, within a week (and that's from Germany). Updated file from Franz was also received in minimal time. In fact, for whatever reason, Franz couldn't get the file to me so he sent it off to Alex (person responsible for starting the thread on NAM) and he ensured it got to my email account. You don't always find this kind of support. Will MTH be around in a year?...who knows....they are here now.

As far as supporting data to the improvement of my 04 JCW/MCS....I have none, at least not from datalog, dyno'd point of view. I can tell you the my MINI does respond quicker and with more pulling power. I can also say, with no hesitation, that the yo-yo/hesitation I was experiencing is GONE. This is something that even the v38 flash didn't fix!

For the cost, I don't see how you can go wrong.

Just my 2 cents

 

We have a "dyno day" this weekend south of Boston - hopefully the MINIs being tested will represent various levels of tuning and give a good comparative set of data - at least it will all be the same day on the same test equipment ...

 

GBMINI...

Will be interested in hearing about the results.

 

thanks for the clarification jlim

agreed to the above points.. if i'd do it again i'd do mth again, but would defenitely go try giac... the turn around time thing really turned me off for alot of the other ones.. shark for example can't be reversed which is another thing that turned me off

i love mth, there's a small power difference i can feel on the top gear and just generally alittle more go, enough to make a difference when passing, and as others say, franz turned around my file in around 12 hours! yoyoing and stumble seems also gone...

 

My $0.02. I too have the 15% pulley, CAI and cat-back. I purchased the UNIchip last April from Randy. Install was simple, less than 20 minutes (I left the switches coiled up under the hood rather than installed in the interior). Initial impressions were favorable, improved throttle response, great mid-range and high end power. But I guess the test of any true system is when something goes wrong. With me it was on a day last June. For the first time (and so far the only time - touch wood) my car failed to start. It would crank and crank but not fire. MINI service dept. reported that it was the aftermarket ECU. After removal the engine fired right up. I called Jack and Tony at UNIchip, and explained my problem. Within 24 hrs. I had a new unit and wiring harness, at no additional cost. I shipped back the old unit to UNIchip. The new unit has worked flawlessly for the last three months. I was very impressed with the post-purchase customer service I received, and for that reason above all others, I would recommend the UNIchip to someone seeking an aftermarket ECU. I have run on both program maps A and B, and currently use the B map with 93 Octane fuel. My car pulls strongly from about 2,500 rpm to redline, and as I stated before throttle response is better than stock, at least by the seat of my pants dyno.

 

The MTH remapping involves MUCH more than simply changing ignition timing. I'm glad that jlm straightened it out.

In addition to the engine control parameters that jlm described, the MTH file improves the ASC and DSC performance, removes the top speed limiter and raises the rev limiter if you wish. I elected not to change the rev limiter but let him do everything else.

I agree, I have no way of verifying my gains, but I am as convinced as I can be that they are real. For me to FEEL an HP gain, it has to be significant. When putting on my exhaust and my intake at two different times, I perceived no gain. When doing the MTH upgrade I did indeed perceive a gain.

 

Many people were optimistic of great results from aftermarket chips. The problem is that chips are not magical. The amount of tuning that can be derived from a chip upgrade is mostly related to the amount of tuning the OEM engineers have done. For the most part, the Mini is well tuned, and a lot of work is pushed out of this engine. Some people try to compare chip tuning for the Mini with cars such as the VW 1.8t, which is not a fair comparison. A lot of turbocharged cars are de-tuned, such as the 1.8t and you can get 20-30hp from their engines, because boost is raised and other items are changed. With a supercharged engine you cannot raise boost just from a computer change. So all that is really being done is to just correct fuel mixtures, to get the last little bit out and then to clean up a few other parameters to bring some smoothness to it.


In the past chip manufacturers had to tune a chip for a wide variety of circumstances. This is becoming less prevelent as more automobile manufacturers are making the cars "smarter", with more sensors, and even more calculations so that the chip modifies it's output for a wide variety of conditions. This is much different from just a set of tables with "safe" values.

I think that realistically 5-8hp is all you will see from a chip for the Mini. Which in my mind is not necessarily that bad. A lot of people focus on numbers, because that is what they are indoctrinated with from the beginning. The flipside is that we have a very well tuned car, that does not have a need for aftermarket ECU's, even with tuning such as a 19% pulley. Sure after major modifications to the engine, such as what jlm is doing it makes sense to retune it, because at some point the changes are so radical as to not really be within the confines of the original engineers framework. It is better to get a really nicely tuned car that is very capable, then to get a detuned car, with such bad programming, that people can unlock 20-30hp with very little work. Again, power is not everything. Some chips allow you to run with modified fuel, have different maps, focus on smoothing out the power and so on... So I think just looking at chips from a pure power standpoint, you are missing out on some of the other aspects.

The other problem you get from shopping for chips is that you are only getting advise from people on this board who have used this chip. While that is great in it's own right, it doesn't really help you shop very much for a chip. You may hear someone say the Unichip is great, but if that person has never tried another chip, it is really pointless, because there isn't much comparison.

I would also be very wary of dyno's. First, runs for chips are very dependent on vehicle type and conditions. Running a chip on Car A on one day, and then on Car B two weeks later does not give a fair comparison, especially when we are only sometimes talking about 3 to 4hp. You should also be careful from where the dyno numbers are coming. Values from the vendor should be met with some skepticism. It is very hard to compare dyno runs. If an optimistic one is showing 8hp and a conservative one is showing 5hp, that is very hard to compare. Most of the difference could be absorbed by statistical separations.

My take on the whole ECU thing is as follows:

• I think the market is fairly mature at this point, and I don't believe there will be much more innovation, especially with the new engines coming out.
• I would stay away from high priced units, unless they offered some real advantage that you would use, such as multiple maps or linking with external devices such as an intercooler spray. Doesn't make sense to pay sometimes $400 more for a chip for one extra hp
• I would stick with brand name units with a reputation for good customer service (i.e. Unichip, GIAC...)

I think following these guidelines would help you narrow it to the best bang for the buck. These are just my guidelines based on someone trying to pick a chip without having tested the devices personally. And these don't encompass every aspect of chip purchasing (i.e. you may personally feel more comfortable with one vendor over the other). You may ride in a car that has the Unichip and just love it, and like the possibility of multiple maps. On the other hand you may be wary of spending the money and decide that maybe you should go cheaper. Than you may want something like the GIAC. Just my two cents in the discussion.

 

resipsamcs,

You could ask the same question about CAIs, Exhausts, headers, TBs etc......It is the same story. Some claim they make power and then you put the car on the dyno and see next to nothing and with some other mods you will see more. If you posts dyno plots people ask you now about before and after testing....independent dyno pulls....etc.


There are several forums to be read that have customer feedbacks, dyno plots etc about all the the chip makers listed above.
It all comes down to this:
1. It is what the vendors try to make you believe in
2. It is what customers who believe in the product they purchased want you to believe in
3. It is about which brand you trust more

This is really it in a the nutshell. Unless you really read all the different websites and make your own decision.

So...we have Unichip, GIAC, EVOTECH, Powerchips, MTH, Sharkey, AMD, Wetterauer, MaxiTuner...etc
Except for Unichip they are all the same....a flash. So there is only so much they can do.

Alex

 

Well, sure, but isn't that the point of resipsamcs' question? His (I'll assume you're a "he") request was for empirical data. Has anyone directly compared various chips? And from the responses, I'd say unfortunately not.

I like dgszweda1's response. He (another assumption- why don't you people sign your posts?) makes several good points. An engine's an air pump; output is a function of the air moved. The chip can bump the timing and lean out the fuel but it can't alter the physical flow characteristics of the motor (like a cam, head, exhaust, intake, etc.). As a result, gains will be nominal and very similar between chips. (This is not true for turbocharged cars, where the boost pressure is controlled by the computer.)

My two cents are 1) don't spend a lot of money and 2) base your decision on secondary features. Limit your exposure. One chip may be "better" than another, but not by more than a hp or two. Further, there's no guarantee the "best" chip for an unmodded Mini continues to offer the largest gain as other modifications are added. What other features are you interested in? I plan to autox and open track, so a higher rev limit (potentially reducing the need to shift) and removed top speed limiter are also important to me.

However, having said the above, I confess I am also very interested in seeing a dyno comparison of several chips, particularly on two or three Mini's with different levels of modification. If one chip consistantly showed a gain over the competition, I (like most people) would be most likely to purchase it.

Sure would be nice if some of the vendors/manufacturers would loan or donate a chip of each brand for dyno testing...

Brock

 

I have a 15% pulley and would love to hear about results from someone who has upgraded with GIAC.

 

Thanks for everyone's input to date, a few specific responses: (1) MINIHUNE - suspension, wheels, tires all upgraded (I am also watching for, perhaps, another Holy Grail regarding wheels - sub 12 lb. 17" wheels, maybe forged magnesium); (2) GBMINI - I look forward to posts regarding your dyno day; (3)NEVR2QK - yes, yes, yes - you get me point, why can't there be more empirical data out there? ( I am in fact a "he")

While at Barnes & Noble today, I found another magazine "NEW MINI", UK based like "GOMINI". It seems like either of these entities are perfectly positioned to do a head to head comparison, with one car or multiple cars with the most common aftermarket upgrades such as pulley, intake, exhaust; take one, two, or three days, with variables controlled as best as possible, and test a variety of ECU tuning options out there and its effect on a specific car with the same baseline. Maybe a push by a number of us will promote the idea to them and help make it happen.

Thanks again for the testimonial responses, I honestly do not completely discount such evidence, but would really like to see some real numbers.

 

Rhode Island Dyno Day results ...
We went to YarrowSport where there is a "proper" dyno - something about the most accurate type; can't remember all the details now ...

First test was Gavins stock MCS which gave an "at the wheels" of 132, extrapolated to an "at the crank" figure of 162.3 which is a nice baseline ... Gavin installed a BMP air intake while other MINIs were being tested, and his later true run gave a maximum 8 bhp increase. Some of this might be due to his engine cooling off and improving (more later about "heat soak") but the air intake gave him a good "bang for the buck" considering he got it used and inexpensive

When GBMINI (equipped with JCW) was tested, we got 148.5 at the wheel, extrapolated to only 185! Seriously short of the claimed 200 for the JCW.
However GBMINIs temperature was high (where was it measured - no idea - but it was higher than expected, perhaps due to the 1.5 hour drive to the dyno location) so it was decided that maybe "heat soak" was an issue. GBMINI was parked indoors for a few hours with a fan blowing into the engine.
The later run gave a slightly improved 190 - still short of claims, but comparable with the best aftermarket MINIs which were getting 190-192 with pulley, exhaust, intake and computer.
I don't have figures but from memory the MINIs with upgrades that did not include computer was giving figures between 170 and 180 - there was a good indication that a computer is needed to get the best out of the pulley upgrade!

Finally, a cylinder of compressed air was used to "super cool" GBMINIs intercooler during another run - I think they also blasted some super cool air into the engine before the run began to increase the cooling!
This run took the "at the crank" figure to 202, showing a considerable 5%+ improvement - clearly you can gain a lot by chilling the incoming air!

You can find graphs and video on my web site. The "before and after chilling" plot, showing both "at the wheel" and "at the crank" hp plots, is here:

(click pic for bigger version)

 

i love it when test results beg for standard conditions