a bonus photo - Desire is currently indisposed

 

propane is expensive! when the price shot up qutie a bit ~20 years ago, I now heat my house with a wood stove to avoid the gas bill, but still use gas for the kitchen and water. I would look at mini splits for garage use, I have one that does our 3 car 2 story garage and it's great, AC in summer and heat in the winter, it only needs short headstart on me to make it comfortable, I'f I'm working on the far end of the garage I turn it on an hour before I start work.

I have it so it hits my lift / work area, our garage is well insulated (SIP) so mileage may vary, don't really need to get it 70 in winter or summer just enough to make it comfortable working

 

A couple of unsolicited comments--probably already things you've thought of, but I've done a similar project once, so I'm an expert.

1) Drive thru sounds nice, but having been involved in overseeing vehicle maintenance shops for the military, including laying out several, I would suggest you might want to reconsider. Drive thru consumes a significant portion of your useable space. You either need to keep the space clear, which greatly decreases your SF utilization, or you start putting stuff in the drive through space just for now and you end up not being able to drive through when you need it. If you're good with backing a trailer, and have a big pad outside to help you line up the entry/exit, I'd suggest that you might be able to forego the drive thru, especially if you're trying to reduce costs. In my experience, if you have a reasonable design and can easily line up your entry/exit, you'll quickly get used to your approach, and you'll find better use for all that vacant sf.

2) If you're planning to do a clear span (no posts), and you're in a high wind/snow load area, I'd suggest you include your civil costs as a significant portion of your planning process. I project managed a 50x125 building in Alaska. Our height was probably quite a bit higher than yours, and our wind load was >100 mph (I can't remember the snow load). Our slab and footings for the beams to bolt to were huge, and totally blew my civil engineering budget. You may already have factored all this in (I still haven't figured out what your profession is, but it's obvious you have extensive engineering knowledge), but even the trained professionals advising my project missed on our civil budget, by a couple of orders of magnitude.

3) As you're planning your dimensions, don't lose sight of the inside height and beam placement. If you're designing for heavy building loads, the interior beams can intrude a LOT in your useable space, both from height and projecting out from the wall. Having the overhead beam cross over your lift could really impact the utility of your lift. Similarly, the footprint/wall space of the vertical beams can make the difference between the tool box you have designated for a particular wall fitting in the space (or the inside swing when you come in the door, if the door is right next to the beam).

All that said: If you do 50x80 with open span, you should install a good ventilation system so you can set up an autocross track for that mini car so you can get your speed fix on in inclement weather.

I'm envious, so please keep us posted--it's nice to live vicariously through this thread (and I don't have all the stresses of managing the project budget or schedule).

And don't let anyone tell you that you have to be done before winter! You can pour a slab the week before Christmas in Alaska. Ask me how I know.

 

Glad to see you back!

For your heating and cooling needs - I would suggest a Ductless Heat Pump (DHP). Small and energy efficient yet will be able to heat and cool the spaces you are looking at without using more of your propane. You will need to insulate the buildings. I suspect, in the long run, you will come out ahead. They do lack a certain aesthetic quality that many people (in the States) cannot get past.

 

mini split aka ductless are getting popular in the states, a few people have looked at mine and then ran out and got them, my neighbor just build his house and that's all he used, the larger ones have multiple heads and one heat exchanger

 

I think you have talked me out of the hydronic heat. My initial thought was why not install the pex line there and decide later if I want to install it. But provisioning the lines and manifolds have their cost. You will need to add the cost of expanded polystyrene foam boards and steel bars below the concrete. A building that size would not be cheap to provision, and I know the cost of propane for heating is much higher than natural gas in the city.

Mini split heat pump is a no-brainer and I installed them before. If I want heat in a curry I can supplement them with propane heaters. I plan to invest in decent roof and wall insulation that are R30 and R25 respectively. It would be a well insulated and relatively airtight garage/shop.

I was one of the early adopters for mini splits. Back then Mitsubishi was the only brand available in the US and I bought 2 for my house.


here is a typical selection of mini splits in a good appliances store in most Asian cities; on display are just the indoor wall units as the outdoor units will take up too much space to display

 

1) It didn't take long before I threw out the idea of able to drive through with the MH and trailer in tow. I simply don't have the land that I am willing to sacrifice for the ingress and egress. To drive across the shop floor is simply a waste of precious floor space. The only time it make sense is if you devote one bay for it, drive in one end and out the other end without the need to encroach onto adjacent bay. I can negotiate tight spaces with the trailer very well including backing up. I chose 50' depth so the MH/trailer bay will have about 10' of space left. The most important is to align the garage door for it with the entry/exit driveways.

2) I am well aware of the significant concrete foundation required, which is a great part of the expense. I plan for one with engineered stem wall perimeter, piers for the posts, and about 6" thick slab with rebars which requires 3 pouring steps. I have two concrete/builder came on site to discuss the project and schedule. The most important step of the structure is to have a engineered slab drawing approved by the permit department before committing to the building kit.

3) the low side wall of the building would be no less than 16' as I want to have a small mezzanine. for full head room it would be more like 19-20'. Increase height adds cost so I need to decide accordingly. The overhead beams are not bad precisely due to the I-beam construction. The local requirements are 110 MPH wind, 55 P/SF ground snow, and seismic C. It will not be a cheap structure and I likely would experience reality check and sticker shock.

One great thing with this huge floor space is to race radio control cars in the winter with friends. At one time my dream was to have a private squash court one day, but I don't think I can find anyone here to play.

 

With that height make sure you provision for overhead fans. Especially important in the winter.

 

Totally agree. Also important is well planned cross ventilation for summer convection cooling at night and with the overhead fans. I just double check the height of the MH and length with the trailer. 11' and 41' so 50' depth is just enough. Parking the trailer inside however is only occasional luxury. The length of the motorhome alone is just under 19'.

I am planning for an asymmetric lift with 11' posts with adequate footing for them.

 

You may already know of this but the Garage Journal Board has some really good/useful information.

 

Thanks for reminding me that. I came across it once but have not spent time there. My current preoccupations have been scoping out the cost of the basic steel structure and utilities, and totally ignoring the garage aspects. It is hard enough to choose a baseline structure which tends to be ugly, no thrill, and with insufficient specs to meet the local code requirements. I just received the rough quotes of two alternative structures with local environmental specs, one standard issued gable roof, and one with my preferred shed roof with good amount of eave overhangs. Both have upgraded decent real R30 roof and R25 wall insulations. $62k versus $85k delivered from out of state.

Both are roughly close to my wild guesstimates, but I have no reliable references. I contacted a local company which I will ask for quotes for the similar structures. It is hard to make apple to apple comparison. Also unless I get to sit down next to the guy driving the "CAD" I will not know where the dimensional sweet spots are cost wise. I hope to be able to do that with the local company.

As the building size is considerable, it is a white canvas for the interior design. At this point the important things are getting the locations of the doors and windows right.

BTW, our mutual friend the Red Baron Pilot is about to receive his GP3. It arrived but he just needs to figure out how to collect it out of town.

 

Here are the rough sketches of the two alternative structures with same interior sq ft.





standard issued cable roof without overhang; $62k


my preferred shed roof with overhangs all around; $85k; he overlooked I want nearly twice the overhang at the front side and less on the two short ends

The cost difference is ~$23k, which I infer due to the increase snow and wind loads, as well as additional wall heights. Generous overhangs cost money and that is why most houses have next to no eaves, let alone usable porch.

Also for reference, this is the "off the shelf" kit of similar size from them with basic insulations and the most easy code requirements. $31k excluding shipping.

 

Overhangs also catch wind, and give the wind something to get ahold of to start lifting the roof. I'm guessing there is some additional structure and reinforcement to countrract that force.

 

Yes. We did discuss that, especially the front side of shed roof. Wind lift force is significant. Some will add soffit so the roofing panels do not get ripped out by the wind lift.

What I infer is wood structure this size is hardly cheaper. My neighbor shared the cost of his much smaller stick built garage shop and I was surprised the costs, not to mention the additional labor to erect it. Stick building does have the advantages of easier to finish the inside and run utilities, and more energy efficient.

 

Accurate inference in my experience. I did a pretty detailed cost analysis on my project. Way better in every way than a wood building.

 

Did you check into what Harbor Freight might have?



Sorry, couldn’t resist that one...


Serious question:
The doors seem to be closes to the sides of the building. Will that leave enough room to the sides for workbenches and general working?

Congrats to the Red Baron on getting the GP. Does he post on NAM? If he does, it would be great if he posted on this GP thread

 

My neighbor built his shop similar in size to yours and ran a shed roof off the side that didn’t have a garage door.
Having owned a few buildings in my car dealerships I would highly suggest FRP for the inside walls. I did my entire garage in it and the stuff is indestructible and once it’s up you never really have to touch it again. If it gets dirty you hose it off. You can beat it with a hammer and you can’t tell where you hit it. I figured by the time I put drywall up and had all the taping and painting done I’d end up spending almost as much as having the FRP installed. Hanging shelves off the FRP is really handy and holes are easily puttied closed. Also, if they will allow it, drains are wonderful.
I know the guys at Advanced Auto Fab are excited to see the Red Barons new GP and get their hands on it.

 

If HF sells such kits you can be sure all the steel structure members are thinned out and made with inferior steel. China has a name for buildings that were built with adulterated concrete and cut corners construction. Tofu buildings. There are allegations that the Three Gorges Dam project suffers from the Tofu building syndrome.

The precise locations and quantity for the doors and openings have not been firmed up yet. They are just rough locations for cost estimate purposes now.

 

Finishing the walls of a PESB is more challenging than stick construction. I am more inclined to put up 3/4" plywood to circa 8' high and call it a day. If not too difficult to do, I would like some peg boards above them. I have no idea what FRP is until I look it up. They are expensive with plywood backing and building that size the cost adds up fast.

I do want a floor drain where I can wash vehicles in winter, if the code allows without draining into the septic. I also want a full bath in it so I can huddle up with Desire some nights.

 

Most big box stores have sheets of FRP. I suggest getting a sample and leaving it in your garage. Pound on it, use it as a scoop or whatever. You'll be amazed how tough it is. We just furred off the studs and attached the FRP to the furring. Runs about $20 for a 4x8 sheet. Once it's up you're done. About every 5 years I pressure wash mine and it looks new. One of my old customers was a contractor. Our county wouldn't allow drains so he would put the drain in and cement over it until after inspection!!

 

Actually while I didn't know they are called FRP, I am very familiar their common applications in vandal proof public and commercial facilities like bathrooms in state and national parks. They are tough as nails but looks tacky in a private home. The alternative to not able to install floor drain is either more slope, which I want to avoid, or having to squeegee out the water. I makes no sense to disallow floor drain that drains to your own land in private rural properties. To retrofit the drain later will require cutting the concrete slab and refilling it.

I reread what you wrote, and realize he hide the drain with cement. If the eagle eye inspector finds it, you just say you realized the transgression and decommissioned it.

 

Rather than 2/12 roof pitch I revised it to 1/12 which reduce the high side ceiling by a few feet. More important the exterior view is more visually balanced as well increasing the overhang effectiveness. The overhang on all four side increases the roof surface area by over 50%, which inevitably has a huge impact to the structure's cost. At 55 psf ground snow load, the building's static snow bearing load is 165 tons. I also asked to upgrade to standing seam roofing which adds $20k to the total.

I want to be able to have a small mezzanine along the rear wall and ideally a 20' wall would afford adequate headroom above and below it. Bumping into the steel ceiling beams with you head is not a pleasant experience. Ideally it would be better to put the mezzanine along the front wall. A compromise is to build it along one of the two short walls, which is the approach my neighbor took.



the revised shed roof design with 1/12 pitch and 10' front overhang

 

Have you looked at the insulated panel walls? I can't remember what they are called, but you end up with a finished interior wall, and a better R value.

As I recall, the 0rive was marginally higher than the bat insulation with fabric covering, but I didn't have to do anything else for an interior wall finish.

 

We had an excellent club day weekend event. It was scheduled for three days. A wedding was on the second day. The first day was exceedingly hot but we had fun and the turn-out was amongst the highest. So was the second day which on on track wedding ceremony took place. Being a member we are all like a family. What an amazing organization!

As on the track anything can happen. A Ferrari 458 which the owner I met at PIR last year had the misfortune of blowing the engine. There were a massive amount of oil dumped on the track and many of us had the close call including myself that arrived to the braking zone of the tight turn shortly after. I thought I went into the corner too hot and the ABS went crazy and I barely scrubbed off enough speed not going off track. Regained my composure I then saw the red Ferrari parked in the bypass and notice the trail of fluid which was the engine oil. I would learn later that a con rod has broke the crank casing and visible from under the car.


I arrived rather late in the afternoon before the club weekend as it was the hottest day of the year











one of the many regular 991.2 GT3 RS



my humble all stock GT4 that eats expensive tires like cheap donuts



someday I may decide a purpose built track cars are the way to go, and I am getting close to that conclusion



as I am planning my shop/garage I was paying more attention to the structures at the track



this structure is the most expensive one due to the generous overhangs



the baddest Alfa Giulia and the owner is an excellent driver



it is one of the fastest cars and it has crazy wide rims and tires; the carbon wheel arches are custom to trim out the butchered fender to accommodate the over the top wide tires



judging from the appearance of the rig you will never guess he is a medical doctor



there were many Porsches with mostly 911's



I really like this early 911 Club Sport



our friend just bought a Sprinter based RV and a Trailex trailer to haul his 718 Cayman S



a marriage made in heaven that is one of the best tracks in the PNW; of course the podium is at the finish line

 

Good to be able to see your own driving filmed from behind. I can see the current pushy suspension and low spring rate is causing me to adapt some bad habits. That was the second last session before I call it quit as the tires were heat-cycled out and very near cording.


Here are the tires after that session.


the rear tires are not bad which is most owners experience



not bad considering the suspension is all stock but has the dealer alignment to improve on track



the right front is the worst as we drove CCW that last day



the left front is not as bad

This set of RE71s are the first set of replacement for the OE tires. It lasted 5 track days which is more than I expected.

I am making concessions with the car's current limitations. Come this winter I will invest in many suspension parts to make the car track worthy, including increased spring rates. I want to do this work myself to learn and know the car.