Drivetrain 05 pepper white MCS modification project
#577
OEM floating calipers
To advance the understanding of science and technology, I went and spent a little time closely inspected a few sets of worn pads from front and rear, as well as taking a close look of the design of the floating calipers. I am glad that I kept the expensed pads all these years for followup postmortem.
Often after a successful diagnostic of a problem, instead of calling it fixed valuable knowledge can be gain if one just spend a few minutes with the "failed" part instead of just declare victory. A fix cannot be assumed a fix unless it is a verified fix.
First off, I examined the set of rear pads that I just changed out. There are clearly uneven friction lining wear among the 4 pads. The right rear inside pad has the most wear. Do note that the rear brakes has the added complexity of the mechanical parking brake mechanism and these are always troublesome because of the added friction and stiction on many parts.
they got abused on the track so the lining look horrible
you can seen the lining of the right inside pad has the most wear; but the lengthwise thickness are a bit uneven on the left side pads
radially the thickness uniformities are not too bad
the radial thickness viewed at the other end
I suspected that the parking brake mechanisms are the main cause of the uneven wear amongst the pads, and the lengthwise skewed wear of the linings. Fortunately I still have the original factory set of rear pads that I kept all these years. Let's see how that set compares.
the left side set is the original OEM set that I swapped out about 8 years ago; the right side set is the OEM set I swap out a few days ago
What can be observed is the passenger side set has more wear than the driver side. This corresponds to many observations by other owners. What is surprising is the inner pads on the OEM set 1 has much less than that of OEM set 2. In fact the wear of the inner and the outer pads are flipped for the right side. I infer these have a lot to do with the added mechanical parking brake mechanism that cause uneven drag between the left and right rear brakes.
To test my assertion most of the uneven wear on the rear pads are due to the mechanical parking brake mechanism I went and look at the front pads. None of them exhibit excessive unevenness between the inner vs the outer, between left side set vs right side set, and unevenness within a pad. This calls into question the benefit of changing the rubber slider bushing with bronze ones.
I went and retrieve my bucket of front stock calipers and a set of front OEM pads
Compared to the rear pads, the front pad wear are quite even between left side and right side, and between inner and outer, as well as within a pad.
Next I examined the design of the front stock floating calipers. I want to see what restrains the skew movement of the pads. What I observed surprised me. These are the end hooks of the pad backing plate, and the machined riding surfaces of the cast iron caliper body and the floating side of it.
the arrows are the surfaces that keeps the pads true but they do float that is the nature of floating caliper design; note the purpose of the spring clip is to hold the floating part of the caliper from lifting up WRT the fixed part of the body
While one can fault the use of rubber for the two sliding pins' bushing, I think it is done so they don't bind when the pad skew is too severe. I am a bit skeptical of the benefit of replacing them with bronze bushings without first hand long term testing.
The most important takeaway from this exercise is for the rear stock brakes, the parking brake mechanisms are the main cause of uneven wear of the pads. There is no consistency except the passenger side tends to drag more. As there is little one can do about the parking brakes, there is no point in investing in $100 of bronze brushings.
Often after a successful diagnostic of a problem, instead of calling it fixed valuable knowledge can be gain if one just spend a few minutes with the "failed" part instead of just declare victory. A fix cannot be assumed a fix unless it is a verified fix.
First off, I examined the set of rear pads that I just changed out. There are clearly uneven friction lining wear among the 4 pads. The right rear inside pad has the most wear. Do note that the rear brakes has the added complexity of the mechanical parking brake mechanism and these are always troublesome because of the added friction and stiction on many parts.
they got abused on the track so the lining look horrible
you can seen the lining of the right inside pad has the most wear; but the lengthwise thickness are a bit uneven on the left side pads
radially the thickness uniformities are not too bad
the radial thickness viewed at the other end
I suspected that the parking brake mechanisms are the main cause of the uneven wear amongst the pads, and the lengthwise skewed wear of the linings. Fortunately I still have the original factory set of rear pads that I kept all these years. Let's see how that set compares.
the left side set is the original OEM set that I swapped out about 8 years ago; the right side set is the OEM set I swap out a few days ago
What can be observed is the passenger side set has more wear than the driver side. This corresponds to many observations by other owners. What is surprising is the inner pads on the OEM set 1 has much less than that of OEM set 2. In fact the wear of the inner and the outer pads are flipped for the right side. I infer these have a lot to do with the added mechanical parking brake mechanism that cause uneven drag between the left and right rear brakes.
To test my assertion most of the uneven wear on the rear pads are due to the mechanical parking brake mechanism I went and look at the front pads. None of them exhibit excessive unevenness between the inner vs the outer, between left side set vs right side set, and unevenness within a pad. This calls into question the benefit of changing the rubber slider bushing with bronze ones.
I went and retrieve my bucket of front stock calipers and a set of front OEM pads
Compared to the rear pads, the front pad wear are quite even between left side and right side, and between inner and outer, as well as within a pad.
Next I examined the design of the front stock floating calipers. I want to see what restrains the skew movement of the pads. What I observed surprised me. These are the end hooks of the pad backing plate, and the machined riding surfaces of the cast iron caliper body and the floating side of it.
the arrows are the surfaces that keeps the pads true but they do float that is the nature of floating caliper design; note the purpose of the spring clip is to hold the floating part of the caliper from lifting up WRT the fixed part of the body
While one can fault the use of rubber for the two sliding pins' bushing, I think it is done so they don't bind when the pad skew is too severe. I am a bit skeptical of the benefit of replacing them with bronze bushings without first hand long term testing.
The most important takeaway from this exercise is for the rear stock brakes, the parking brake mechanisms are the main cause of uneven wear of the pads. There is no consistency except the passenger side tends to drag more. As there is little one can do about the parking brakes, there is no point in investing in $100 of bronze brushings.
Last edited by pnwR53S; 05-06-2018 at 11:48 AM.
#578
I would not say the CoolerWorx shifter will improve my lap time in any measurable way. I have to say, it increases the fun factor by many notches. It just adds to the pleasure of driving the Mini; more connectedness.
Last edited by pnwR53S; 05-06-2018 at 12:11 PM.
#580
If I have the floating calipers for front, I might give them a try.
#582
Great videos! I am planning to get these for my calipers. https://alconkits.com/tools-and-supp...-strips-detail
#583
LOL. They are on my Amazon wishlist like forever. I do not like the idea of single use. I should just-do-it with the home brew data logger with twin (we are British here ) thermocouples. The electronic design and coding are very easy, but the installation and packaging are major PITA.
I have to agree with you on the brass bushings. They may be worth it for stock front brakes, but won’t do much to help rears. My rear pads looked pretty beat up (almost as bad as yours), especially for a daily driver it used to be. I am upgrading to ebc redstuff.
#584
Watching your videos really makes me want to get out for a track day. The Corvette you were chasing down... did they have an instructor with them? For a car that should be able to just eat PIR's corners with the exception of the chicane, that looked like some bad throttle and steering inputs to my untrained eye.
#585
Watching your videos really makes me want to get out for a track day. The Corvette you were chasing down... did they have an instructor with them? For a car that should be able to just eat PIR's corners with the exception of the chicane, that looked like some bad throttle and steering inputs to my untrained eye.
I didn't want to say bad things about the Z06 driver for he can be a future friend, or frienemy. The video speaks for itself. That Miata has NA engine and he is blistering fast in turns. If you watch closely, he accelerates right after the turn-in. I was suffering from brake fluid boil.
Please sign up for the TNIN in mid May. Do it now.
#586
tyres ordered
I dread shopping tyres for Desire. Not much options with 16" wheels. I am glad that I made my mind up for Desire's new running shoes. Ordered and done with so I have a set ready to go not know when the current set will expire.
Desire trashes shoes, and has a tendency wanting to go off road.
As tyres is classified top secret I cannot reveal the selection until they are installed and ready to go.
Desire trashes shoes, and has a tendency wanting to go off road.
As tyres is classified top secret I cannot reveal the selection until they are installed and ready to go.
Last edited by pnwR53S; 05-07-2018 at 08:06 AM.
#587
I didn't want to say bad things about the Z06 driver for he can be a future friend, or frienemy. The video speaks for itself. That Miata has NA engine and he is blistering fast in turns. If you watch closely, he accelerates right after the turn-in. I was suffering from brake fluid boil.
Please sign up for the TNIN in mid May. Do it now.
Please sign up for the TNIN in mid May. Do it now.
We all start somewhere and its good that he is learning on the track rather than the street.
TNIN is that the Track Night on the 18th?
You are consistently at least 5 MPH faster than me in most all corners and 10 to 15 mph faster in the straights - I guess that is what 50% more HP and way more track time gets you. If I do sign up, I would be signing up for the novice group as I do not want to slow down traffic in corners for the intermediate group. I've done that too many times. The grouchy looks from the other drivers make the day less fun and the "I'm going as fast as the nut behind the wheel can make the car go - without dying" doesn't go over as well as you might think.
#592
The BP-30 up front works very well on street, now they are well bedded from track. And now with the Cobalt at back they seem to play well.
#596
OVERDRIVE
iTrader: (1)
Me no most people. They served me well last season and they are on the last leg so I wanted to used them up that day. My Mini serves dual duties. Changing the rear pads back and forth is a Royal PITA.
The BP-30 up front works very well on street, now they are well bedded from track. And now with the Cobalt at back they seem to play well.
The BP-30 up front works very well on street, now they are well bedded from track. And now with the Cobalt at back they seem to play well.
I just bedded in my BP-30s. You are right about the noise they make. The ride home was something else. An old school bus has nothing on these things.
Last edited by Eddie07S; 05-07-2018 at 06:47 PM. Reason: typo
#597
Cobalt is a new one on me. It will be interesting to hear how well they work for you. I leave the race pads in the rear in for the season. They seem fine on the street (my MINI is a DD also). Right now I have the Hawk DTC60s in the rear.
I just bedded in my BP-30s. You are right about the noise they make. The ride home was something else. An old school bus has nothing on these things.
#598
one step at a time
I know this is going to raise a few eyebrows. In late last season my Mini's front end shook violently braking from >100 MPH before the sharp turns. Despite of that I improved my lap time in the last season of the day. The violent shakes under heavy braking really concerned me. I thought there can be a number of things:
I know the front ball joints are not likely the cause as my Mini only has 43k then.
Because ot the list above I bought a number of poly bushings for the front end LCA as well as the bushing for the rack and pinion. I also bought a strut tower brace and the cabrio front braces. I have not install any of these to date because of many reasons, and among which just too much on my plate.
In the most recent track day it was the first time that I ran with the Wilwood front BBK. As I swapped out the stock calipers, rotors, and the bad-ars Hawk HT-14 pads I no longer have the violent front end shake that I experience late last season that I thought my front lower control arm bushings are definitely to be blamed. My experience proved it not to be the source.
My Mini to date, has yet to have a strut tower brace, and still have all the OE rubber suspension bushings, except the lower rear control arm that is H-sport adjustable set to same length as OE. I am not saying poly bushings do not improve the handling. I just want to take one incremental step at a time and find out the improvement along with each change. So far this approach has been very rewarding and educational.
- the lack of front strut tower brace
- worn and tired OEM front control arm rubber bushings
- brake friction material transfer to the front rotors
I know the front ball joints are not likely the cause as my Mini only has 43k then.
Because ot the list above I bought a number of poly bushings for the front end LCA as well as the bushing for the rack and pinion. I also bought a strut tower brace and the cabrio front braces. I have not install any of these to date because of many reasons, and among which just too much on my plate.
In the most recent track day it was the first time that I ran with the Wilwood front BBK. As I swapped out the stock calipers, rotors, and the bad-ars Hawk HT-14 pads I no longer have the violent front end shake that I experience late last season that I thought my front lower control arm bushings are definitely to be blamed. My experience proved it not to be the source.
My Mini to date, has yet to have a strut tower brace, and still have all the OE rubber suspension bushings, except the lower rear control arm that is H-sport adjustable set to same length as OE. I am not saying poly bushings do not improve the handling. I just want to take one incremental step at a time and find out the improvement along with each change. So far this approach has been very rewarding and educational.
#599
motor mount musing
When my stock upper motor mount failed last year @43k I replaced it with same OE for circa $55. I did a bit of research to the internal design on the all knowing internet, and only to find very little useful information. I was going to cut open the stout stainless steel housing to see it for myself, and the failure mechanism. I would be intimidated by the potential risk of cutting myself and need to go to emergency service in the process so I threw it out.
I would take donation as a personal experiment to explore refilling one with polyurethane if you have a failed one that you are willing to give me. Do note that the successful rebuilt that I have read so far involving cutting open the SS housing, do whatever needed to prep, and rewelding the two halves back together.
I have been regretting since. On MiniTorque forum there are a few brave souls that has successfully in refilling the stock mount with 2 part polyurethane. It is essentially what all these aftermarket mounts are like, and in my view, can be better because of the strong SS body.
Here is one person's soon to begin attempt.
image credit Astroboy (who has one of the best threads there)
I would take donation as a personal experiment to explore refilling one with polyurethane if you have a failed one that you are willing to give me. Do note that the successful rebuilt that I have read so far involving cutting open the SS housing, do whatever needed to prep, and rewelding the two halves back together.
I have been regretting since. On MiniTorque forum there are a few brave souls that has successfully in refilling the stock mount with 2 part polyurethane. It is essentially what all these aftermarket mounts are like, and in my view, can be better because of the strong SS body.
Here is one person's soon to begin attempt.
image credit Astroboy (who has one of the best threads there)
#600