Drivetrain Aftermarket Clutch Break-In Period...?
#1
11-09-2004, 04:42 PM
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Aftermarket Clutch Break-In Period...?
Hey all,
Got a problem, which may or may not be a problem, so lets see where this goes. I just drove my car for the first time today after getting the UUC Motorwerks clutch and flywheel installed on my car - I've been talking about this before with 'jlm' - and everything was going GREAT with it. The clutch engagement was awesome, the flywheel was quicker to rev, and the gearshift worked smoothly. I didn't beat up on it, as I remembered that there is a 500mile break-in period on the clutch, so I took it easy on the car.
I got the car back to the dealership where the remainder of the work was completed after some problems occurred that were out of my control, and the car would NOT go into gear. It felt like I wasn't pushing in the clutch far enough. The first time the car was driven, the car wouldn't go into gear after a little over a mile of shifting through traffic, and the second time it was about three or four times that distance. The problem occurs after the transmission is heated to normal operating temperatures - during cold driving conditions, the clutch and gearshift are both perfect, it feels as if driving a brand new car, but after a few miles of driving... I also smelt the clutch burning a little bit during the drive too.
Is this the typical break-in procedure? Is this what happens during the first 500miles? Lee at Century MINI in Greenville SC and I are infinitely confused about this situation, as we have both never gone through this type of modification. At first, we thought it was the gearlube I put in it; I used AMSOIL 75W-90, so he dumped that and put in the MT94 that BMW recommends as their 'lifetime transmission fluid' that I didn't want to put back in the tranny. That didn't cure the gearshift problem, so we now assume it has to do with the clutch / flywheel upgrade.
Now with that in mind, we have broken the problem down into the three pieces of the upgrade; the pressure plate, the clutch disc, and the flywheel. All the pieces were supplied by UUC Motorwerks, and after a brief conversation with Arjun Sound at UUC, we have determined the following conclusions. The pressure plate and flywheel have both been heat treated, and would not expand or contract due to higher heat - not enough to make ANY type of difference. That leaves the organic clutch disc being used. Lee suggests that the disc is a fraction of a millimeter too thick to begin with, and upon a temperature increase, the organic clutch disc expands to make it so the clutch is not able to engage all the way. In my theory, after the 500mile break-in period, the clutch disc will have burnt off enough to allow the gears to shift smoothly.
Am I right, wrong, way off in this theory? Any help in this subject would be GREAT! Thanks in advance!
Got a problem, which may or may not be a problem, so lets see where this goes. I just drove my car for the first time today after getting the UUC Motorwerks clutch and flywheel installed on my car - I've been talking about this before with 'jlm' - and everything was going GREAT with it. The clutch engagement was awesome, the flywheel was quicker to rev, and the gearshift worked smoothly. I didn't beat up on it, as I remembered that there is a 500mile break-in period on the clutch, so I took it easy on the car.
I got the car back to the dealership where the remainder of the work was completed after some problems occurred that were out of my control, and the car would NOT go into gear. It felt like I wasn't pushing in the clutch far enough. The first time the car was driven, the car wouldn't go into gear after a little over a mile of shifting through traffic, and the second time it was about three or four times that distance. The problem occurs after the transmission is heated to normal operating temperatures - during cold driving conditions, the clutch and gearshift are both perfect, it feels as if driving a brand new car, but after a few miles of driving... I also smelt the clutch burning a little bit during the drive too.
Is this the typical break-in procedure? Is this what happens during the first 500miles? Lee at Century MINI in Greenville SC and I are infinitely confused about this situation, as we have both never gone through this type of modification. At first, we thought it was the gearlube I put in it; I used AMSOIL 75W-90, so he dumped that and put in the MT94 that BMW recommends as their 'lifetime transmission fluid' that I didn't want to put back in the tranny. That didn't cure the gearshift problem, so we now assume it has to do with the clutch / flywheel upgrade.
Now with that in mind, we have broken the problem down into the three pieces of the upgrade; the pressure plate, the clutch disc, and the flywheel. All the pieces were supplied by UUC Motorwerks, and after a brief conversation with Arjun Sound at UUC, we have determined the following conclusions. The pressure plate and flywheel have both been heat treated, and would not expand or contract due to higher heat - not enough to make ANY type of difference. That leaves the organic clutch disc being used. Lee suggests that the disc is a fraction of a millimeter too thick to begin with, and upon a temperature increase, the organic clutch disc expands to make it so the clutch is not able to engage all the way. In my theory, after the 500mile break-in period, the clutch disc will have burnt off enough to allow the gears to shift smoothly.
Am I right, wrong, way off in this theory? Any help in this subject would be GREAT! Thanks in advance!
#2
11-10-2004, 03:34 AM
i would suspect air in the clutch slave system. to bleed it, you have to clamp the slave cylinder to hold the actuating rod all the way in, then bleed out the air, preferably sith a pressure bleeder.
as I understand it, the 500 miles is to heat cycle the friction lining on ths disc enought times to really bake it on there.
as I understand it, the 500 miles is to heat cycle the friction lining on ths disc enought times to really bake it on there.
#3
11-10-2004, 08:33 AM
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jlm,
That was one of the points that Arjun at UUC stated might be the problem. I spoke with Lee at Century MINI about it, and he and I both feel that there is no air in the lines. We have both driven the car, and are fully confident that air in the clutch slave isn't the issue, because the pedal would have a 'slipping' feeling to it all the time. The pedal would almost jolt back and forth if there was air in the lines, no matter what the temperature. Also, the clutch lines were not ever opened during the install, as it is a pain in the butt to do I was told (and because there was no need to do so), the lines were just moved out of harm's way while reassembling the transmission.
Another one of Arjun's replies to this problem was that the clutch slave was overheating due to its plastic housing. Theoretically, after a few miles of shifting, the clutch slave on my car (and surprisingly no one else's car, even the cars that are tracked every weekend!) would overhead causing the pressure plate to not fully depress and release. This point, again, was ruled out because there is no evidence that the clutch slave is warn out, as this would have been a long running problem before the clutch was replaced.
You made an interesting point about the need to heat cycle the clutch disc. This is related to what I was saying before - would the need to heat cycle the disc cause the car to have difficulties going into gear? The more and more I think about this, the more I believe I am being paranoid about the new clutch.... if the disc gets completely "resurfaced" as my last one did within a few months of average [ab]use, then I'll have a problem I would need to take up with UUC!!
That was one of the points that Arjun at UUC stated might be the problem. I spoke with Lee at Century MINI about it, and he and I both feel that there is no air in the lines. We have both driven the car, and are fully confident that air in the clutch slave isn't the issue, because the pedal would have a 'slipping' feeling to it all the time. The pedal would almost jolt back and forth if there was air in the lines, no matter what the temperature. Also, the clutch lines were not ever opened during the install, as it is a pain in the butt to do I was told (and because there was no need to do so), the lines were just moved out of harm's way while reassembling the transmission.
Another one of Arjun's replies to this problem was that the clutch slave was overheating due to its plastic housing. Theoretically, after a few miles of shifting, the clutch slave on my car (and surprisingly no one else's car, even the cars that are tracked every weekend!) would overhead causing the pressure plate to not fully depress and release. This point, again, was ruled out because there is no evidence that the clutch slave is warn out, as this would have been a long running problem before the clutch was replaced.
You made an interesting point about the need to heat cycle the clutch disc. This is related to what I was saying before - would the need to heat cycle the disc cause the car to have difficulties going into gear? The more and more I think about this, the more I believe I am being paranoid about the new clutch.... if the disc gets completely "resurfaced" as my last one did
within a few months of average [ab]use, then I'll have a problem I would need to take up with UUC!!
#4
11-10-2004, 01:52 PM
Sounds more like a defect in one of the clutch parts or something was not installed right during assembly. The burning clutch smell isn't a good sign. It seems the clutch isn't disengaging properly.
I, too, would disregard the clutch hydraulic system as a problem area unless a line was inadvertently crushed. As you mentioned there are plenty of these things tracked with no problems with this system.
Sadly, a tear down is going to be about the only way to really verify the problem and the extent of any damage to the parts.
I, too, would disregard the clutch hydraulic system as a problem area unless a line was inadvertently crushed. As you mentioned there are plenty of these things tracked with no problems with this system.
Sadly, a tear down is going to be about the only way to really verify the problem and the extent of any damage to the parts.
#5
11-10-2004, 06:26 PM
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Originally Posted by Moorlockx
Sadly, a tear down is going to be about the only way to really verify the problem and the extent of any damage to the parts.
Anyone nearby interested in seeing the MINI's motor outside the car this weekend?
#7
11-11-2004, 06:09 PM
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Previous posts on other threads indicate that UUC Motorwerks rebadges Fidanza flywheels and Spec clutches - though this picture and actually having the parts in my hands might indicate otherwise....
PICTURE: https://secure1.nexternal.com/uuc/im...CH_KIT_450.jpg
From THIS page:
https://secure1.nexternal.com/shared...&RowID=272&All
Eh, I'll give them the benefit of the doubt that they made the kit themselves... If they didn't, they sure went to some length to laser engrave their logo on the flywheel, so who knows....
PICTURE: https://secure1.nexternal.com/uuc/im...CH_KIT_450.jpg
From THIS page:
https://secure1.nexternal.com/shared...&RowID=272&All
Eh, I'll give them the benefit of the doubt that they made the kit themselves... If they didn't, they sure went to some length to laser engrave their logo on the flywheel, so who knows....
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#8
11-11-2004, 07:28 PM
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a local bmw aftermarket mechanic has worked on a mini with the same clutch upgrade who had what sounded like a similar problem. he put in in a new slave cylinder (20.00) and then had to put in a new master cylinder (40.00) and then the clutch worked fine. id try all that before a tear down.
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11-11-2004, 07:56 PM
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#11
11-12-2004, 08:51 AM
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Looks like I'm pulling a full 180 on this....
After speaking to a few, more qualified people than I, it sounds like there may be a problem with the hydraulic system.... the upgraded clutch is putting a heavier duty on the system, and the clutch isn't disengaging fully after a few miles of driving and shifting gears.
The other things that point away from the clutch disc being the issue is that the clutch disc CAN in fact be mounted incorrectly (read: facing the wrong direction), but will not allow the clutch to operate - if the springs of the UUC clutch disc were facing the pressure plate, I wouldn't be able to 'smoothly engage the clutch' at all, in fact after one solid push of the clutch, the disc would shatter in half, as I am being told....
Hoping that this will all be resolved by the end of the day today - though it may involve replacing either the clutch slave, the master cylinder, or both....
After speaking to a few, more qualified people than I, it sounds like there may be a problem with the hydraulic system.... the upgraded clutch is putting a heavier duty on the system, and the clutch isn't disengaging fully after a few miles of driving and shifting gears.
The other things that point away from the clutch disc being the issue is that the clutch disc CAN in fact be mounted incorrectly (read: facing the wrong direction), but will not allow the clutch to operate - if the springs of the UUC clutch disc were facing the pressure plate, I wouldn't be able to 'smoothly engage the clutch' at all, in fact after one solid push of the clutch, the disc would shatter in half, as I am being told....
Hoping that this will all be resolved by the end of the day today - though it may involve replacing either the clutch slave, the master cylinder, or both....
#13
11-12-2004, 09:26 AM
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#14
11-12-2004, 12:20 PM
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The clutch lines have been bled, and the problem still occurs, with even more miles between startup and failure.... Lee (the mechanic at Century MINI) said there isn't anything else it could be except for the clutch and flywheel, so we'll be tearing it down this weekend.... hopefully I can either solve the problem myself, or have the clutch disc / pressure plate sent back to UUC for a replacement part....
Just got off the phone with Rob Levinson at UUC - looks like they're going to send me replacement parts for whatever is defective, as that appears to be the problem... He explained to me a problem he encountered with a BMW E46 clutch disc which, although similar, is different than the problem I have listed above - another MCS owner I spoke with today said he had a similar, yet different problem with his UUC clutch / flywheel.... is this a trend or are these the only three examples of batch errors spawning from their location in New Jersey???
Just got off the phone with Rob Levinson at UUC - looks like they're going to send me replacement parts for whatever is defective, as that appears to be the problem... He explained to me a problem he encountered with a BMW E46 clutch disc which, although similar, is different than the problem I have listed above - another MCS owner I spoke with today said he had a similar, yet different problem with his UUC clutch / flywheel.... is this a trend or are these the only three examples of batch errors spawning from their location in New Jersey???
#16
11-14-2004, 03:23 PM
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Have not started the teardown as planned this weekend... Currently we don't have any more room in our shop for me to begin the tedious project (AGAIN!), as we have received our crate of Japanese cars for we must fix up and sell.........
Side Note: If anyone is looking for a Nissan Skyline GT-R (R33, circa 1993) or a Mazda RX7 FD3S (circa 1992), both right-hand drive, fixed up any way you want it, let me know!! the faster we get these cars up and running, the quicker I'll be able to get the little MINI running!
Side Note: If anyone is looking for a Nissan Skyline GT-R (R33, circa 1993) or a Mazda RX7 FD3S (circa 1992), both right-hand drive, fixed up any way you want it, let me know!! the faster we get these cars up and running, the quicker I'll be able to get the little MINI running!
#18
11-18-2004, 07:46 PM
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Well....
I talked with the dealership again today. We have a problem coming together on the conclusion to the problem. Basically, as I've said before, the transmission has to be pulled again and the culprit of the problem identified, be it the clutch disc possibly mounted incorrectly, a defective clutch disc, or a defective pressure plate - all of which not causing the clutch to fully disengage after a period of time spent driving the vehicle and subsequently warming up the engagement pieces.
I cannot rightfully ask UUC to send me a new clutch disc and pressure plate without them having the original units they sent me, therefore eating up two to four days of shipping these items and occupying a lift at the dealership during that time. Without having the possibly defective part sent to them within a reasonable amount of time upon installation, they might come back at me and suggest that I have had / used the part for enough time to justify driver, user, installation error, so I need to do this sooner than later. Obviously, on the other hand, I cannot rightfully occupy the lift and cause [my, now close friend] Lee at Century MINI, to be out of work during that same period because of me and my doings.
Again, I would be able to solve this problem on my own at my own personal shop if I had room in it to be able to let the car sit on a lift - the perks of being a business owner sometimes allows for that - but not in this case. Not when we ordered 2 Japanese sports cars 3 months ago and now they are being worked on day and night to get them on the road and out of the shop......
Sub-freezing temperatures don't allow for me to complete the tear down in my driveway, so.... I'm stuck between a rock and a hard place!!!
Suggestions? err - make that POSITIVE suggestions?
I talked with the dealership again today. We have a problem coming together on the conclusion to the problem. Basically, as I've said before, the transmission has to be pulled again and the culprit of the problem identified, be it the clutch disc possibly mounted incorrectly, a defective clutch disc, or a defective pressure plate - all of which not causing the clutch to fully disengage after a period of time spent driving the vehicle and subsequently warming up the engagement pieces.
I cannot rightfully ask UUC to send me a new clutch disc and pressure plate without them having the original units they sent me, therefore eating up two to four days of shipping these items and occupying a lift at the dealership during that time. Without having the possibly defective part sent to them within a reasonable amount of time upon installation, they might come back at me and suggest that I have had / used the part for enough time to justify driver, user, installation error, so I need to do this sooner than later. Obviously, on the other hand, I cannot rightfully occupy the lift and cause [my, now close friend] Lee at Century MINI, to be out of work during that same period because of me and my doings.
Again, I would be able to solve this problem on my own at my own personal shop if I had room in it to be able to let the car sit on a lift - the perks of being a business owner sometimes allows for that - but not in this case. Not when we ordered 2 Japanese sports cars 3 months ago and now they are being worked on day and night to get them on the road and out of the shop......
Sub-freezing temperatures don't allow for me to complete the tear down in my driveway, so.... I'm stuck between a rock and a hard place!!!
Suggestions? err - make that POSITIVE suggestions?
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11-19-2004, 03:19 AM
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11-19-2004, 10:25 AM
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#21
02-19-2005, 08:52 AM
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#22
02-19-2005, 11:23 PM
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Funny, I was going to post on this thread the other day, but didn't know if anyone really cared what happened to my car in the end! Apparently at least ONE person does, so I'll share.
I went in for service yesterday. The car let me know that I was ready for the 2nd service at roughly 28K miles, so I stopped in. Brent, the new head of the MINI service at Century MINI in Greenville, SC questioned me on how the car was running, and I looked puzzled, asking "Why?"
"Well, the last time I saw you, you were driving home a car that wouldn't go but 1-5 miles up the road without blocking you out of gear!"
Oh... yeah.... that problem!
I told him "everything is fine now," and he then gave me the puzzled look. How did it get resolved wasthe next question he was about to ask, and before he could ask it, I responded.
The situation sort of just corrected itself. Who knows how, who knows why, I'll probably never know, or at least not until I tear down the tranny again - to which I'll be installing a Quaife LSD at that point. Our best estimate, putting together everything that I know and heard from about 2 dozen people smarter than I that know about this sort of thing (from MINI engineers, to UUC, to people who upgrade and work on transmissions for a living, to.... you get the idea - EVERYONE), we came up with two scenarios as to what might have happened:
The surface issue is a little harder to believe, because if the surface was messed up in any way, slipping the clutch on a slower start would more than likely take it off and keep it off, instead of causing problems after the transmission was heated.
Either way, I drove the car home 40 or so miles from the dealership, and had only two "situations" after that with regard to the gearshift problem. Both times after driving the car on the highway without switching gears often resulted in a sticking 1st gear, and only 1st. Both issues were resolved by force; the gearshift had to be nearly pryed out of 1st in order to shift to 2nd, and after the last "situation," the problem was gone for good.
Now, with the conclusion to this problem in mind, anyone have any explanation????
I went in for service yesterday. The car let me know that I was ready for the 2nd service at roughly 28K miles, so I stopped in. Brent, the new head of the MINI service at Century MINI in Greenville, SC questioned me on how the car was running, and I looked puzzled, asking "Why?"
"Well, the last time I saw you, you were driving home a car that wouldn't go but 1-5 miles up the road without blocking you out of gear!"
Oh... yeah.... that problem!
I told him "everything is fine now," and he then gave me the puzzled look. How did it get resolved wasthe next question he was about to ask, and before he could ask it, I responded.
The situation sort of just corrected itself. Who knows how, who knows why, I'll probably never know, or at least not until I tear down the tranny again - to which I'll be installing a Quaife LSD at that point. Our best estimate, putting together everything that I know and heard from about 2 dozen people smarter than I that know about this sort of thing (from MINI engineers, to UUC, to people who upgrade and work on transmissions for a living, to.... you get the idea - EVERYONE), we came up with two scenarios as to what might have happened:
- The clutch disc, being organic, may have been manufactured 1/10th of a millimeter too thick. This may have caused the disc to expand after getting warmed up in the transmission from shifting gears and contacting the flywheel, and pushed me too far away from being able to release off the flywheel, thus preventing me from being able to switch gears.
- There may have been some "film" of some sort (light rust, oil, liquid, etc.) on the surface of the flywheel, giving the disc hell trying to contact and release when switching gears.
The surface issue is a little harder to believe, because if the surface was messed up in any way, slipping the clutch on a slower start would more than likely take it off and keep it off, instead of causing problems after the transmission was heated.
Either way, I drove the car home 40 or so miles from the dealership, and had only two "situations" after that with regard to the gearshift problem. Both times after driving the car on the highway without switching gears often resulted in a sticking 1st gear, and only 1st. Both issues were resolved by force; the gearshift had to be nearly pryed out of 1st in order to shift to 2nd, and after the last "situation," the problem was gone for good.
Now, with the conclusion to this problem in mind, anyone have any explanation????
#23
02-20-2005, 06:49 AM
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So I take it that your UUC drivetrain upgrades work as intended now?
I am happy for you that all is now well
There is nothing worse than having a niggling fault that refuses to budge no matter how much time , effort and money you throw at it
Anyway, a couple of questions for you...
1) Is there noticeable 'chatter' from the flywheel and clutch package?
2) How close to stock is the engagement of the clutch would you say?
3) Has there been any other instances since where you have experienced a clutch burning smell that wasn't intentionally induced?
Thanks,
Henry
I am happy for you that all is now well
There is nothing worse than having a niggling fault that refuses to budge no matter how much time , effort and money you throw at it Anyway, a couple of questions for you...
1) Is there noticeable 'chatter' from the flywheel and clutch package?
2) How close to stock is the engagement of the clutch would you say?
3) Has there been any other instances since where you have experienced a clutch burning smell that wasn't intentionally induced?
Thanks,
Henry
#25
04-26-2005, 03:58 PM
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supercoopers
My bad, I didn't even see there was a reply on this thread after I had posted! I assume that's what MSFITOY was interested in learning about...?
To answer your questions:
1) Is there noticeable 'chatter' from the flywheel and clutch package?
No, no chatter, persay. There is a vibration gained from the introduction of the aftermarket throwout bearing, which some have said they would purchase a new stock one instead of installing the UUC one if they had to go back and do it again. It doesn't bother me at all, it sorta gives the car a "performance" feel to it - if you come to the Dragon and hear my car sitting in idle, you'll understand.
"What is that noise?"
"Oh, that? Its my race clutch...."
2) How close to stock is the engagement of the clutch would you say?
It IS stock. That was one of the questions I kept getting from everyone trying to solve this problem, and the answer was the same each time - it is exactly at the same point as it used to be before I melted the clutch disc. The only real "difference" verses the stock clutch pedal feel is the fact that my engagement works goes about 1/4 of an inch. Its not a complete "switch" naming the operation either engaged or disengaged, but its as close to it as possible. For the average manual transmission driver, it would be a challenge to drive this car and not stall it out at every stop - I know because that's how it was for me for the entire first day of driving it!
3) Has there been any other instances since where you have experienced a clutch burning smell that wasn't intentionally induced?
Nope, nothing of the sort. After the initial problem was resolved, there was nothing bad that has happened with the clutch / flywheel combo. Honestly, the concept of something being adhered to the flywheel prior to installation, be it surface rust or other, sounds to be like the most obvious and available culprit.
Any other questions, MSFITOY?
My bad, I didn't even see there was a reply on this thread after I had posted! I assume that's what MSFITOY was interested in learning about...?
To answer your questions:
1) Is there noticeable 'chatter' from the flywheel and clutch package?
No, no chatter, persay. There is a vibration gained from the introduction of the aftermarket throwout bearing, which some have said they would purchase a new stock one instead of installing the UUC one if they had to go back and do it again. It doesn't bother me at all, it sorta gives the car a "performance" feel to it - if you come to the Dragon and hear my car sitting in idle, you'll understand.
"What is that noise?"
"Oh, that? Its my race clutch...."
2) How close to stock is the engagement of the clutch would you say?
It IS stock. That was one of the questions I kept getting from everyone trying to solve this problem, and the answer was the same each time - it is exactly at the same point as it used to be before I melted the clutch disc. The only real "difference" verses the stock clutch pedal feel is the fact that my engagement works goes about 1/4 of an inch. Its not a complete "switch" naming the operation either engaged or disengaged, but its as close to it as possible. For the average manual transmission driver, it would be a challenge to drive this car and not stall it out at every stop - I know because that's how it was for me for the entire first day of driving it!
3) Has there been any other instances since where you have experienced a clutch burning smell that wasn't intentionally induced?
Nope, nothing of the sort. After the initial problem was resolved, there was nothing bad that has happened with the clutch / flywheel combo. Honestly, the concept of something being adhered to the flywheel prior to installation, be it surface rust or other, sounds to be like the most obvious and available culprit.
Any other questions, MSFITOY?