the product seems good to me, but who does the "we" refer to this time so we can evaluate their history with vibration dampers?

 

Is this something that could be installed along side (re. at the same time) as the supercharger pulley using the same "jack up the engine" technique. Basically what I'm asking is if it's possible to kill two birds with one stone and save a bundle on install time by doing both at the same time. At least for those of us who don't yet have a pulley?

Macman.

 

Yes, this is something that could be done at the same time, but prior to jacking the engine up. But both installs require the removal of the passenger side wheel well. and the removal of the belt and the tensioner being removed for the SC pulley would make the install of the Damper a bit easier.

 

Looks good! I want. Too bad I'm already running a 19%, and don't want to go back. What's the outer section made from? (Will it stay that shiny when exposed to weather? )

There is one thing that has not yet been mentioned. The supercharger reduction pulley changes supercharger spin speed relative to crank speed without altering the linear travel rate of the belt. The current popular hypothesis regarding belt problems with the 19% in track use is that these stem primarily from the small wrap radius, and slippage-induced heat due insufficient belt-pulley contact area, which, when combined, can be too much for the belt to handle. Although being able to step back to a 15% supercharger pulley while maintaining boost levels due to faster belt travel rate alleviates this issue, will a faster-moving belt increase stress on the tensioner (as inertia presses it out against the tensioner pulley?)

Because the oversize crank damper/pulley increases the linear velocity of the belt itself, all of the driven items will be spun at faster than stock rates. (There goes the warranty on the alternator, too! ) Accordingly, some of the power advantage gained from the increased boost may be lost spinning the other accessories faster. I would expect it's not much, but it is a factor to be considered. Also, given the concerns expressed about observed failures of the stock belt tensioner, I hope we see production examples of an uprated belt tensioner soon, and that it includes an improved idler pulley, as well.

 

You're right about the accessories. The ideal solution would be oversized (and lightened) replacement pulleys for the accessories as well.

 

Pilo - what is the construction of your light damper? Also, what are the two pieces in the picture? What frequency/RPM is the damper tuned to?

Thanks,
Ryan

 

why does one need a damper in the pulley? what vibrations are inteneded to be damped and why? "damping" can become some manta/elixir/buzzword like "strut brace" unless there's some reasoning behind it.

i know, i know, i'm going to be accused of vendor bashing again. but these rotating dampers are tricky to engineer. if you aren't an expert, you can end up feeding vibration frequencies back into the original mechanism for which is was NEVER designed. check out all the problems and development issues with the general aviation auto engine conversion prop speed reducers/dampers.

 

underscoring flyboy's post (at the risk of getting flack for pickong on a vendor), I'll repeat what was above:

the product seems good to me, but who does the "we" refer to this time so we can evaluate their history with vibration dampers?

I know Pilo isn't making these, but instead is sourcing them, so how else does one evaluate them?

 

FlyBoy, there's a lengthy thread that touches on your question: https://www.northamericanmotoring.co...tweight+pulley
Start with Ryephile's post #60 on page 3.

 

The Damper is there to reduce the ammount of harmonic vibrations that can be translated through the crank shaft. These vibrations can cause premature failure of bearings and such. The Mini Cooper S comes stock with a vibration damper.

What we have is an oversized Vibration Damper that 1. Keeps the same charecteristics as the stock Damper, 2. increases the speed of the supercharger for more boost, and 3. Is lighter weight then the stock pulley. The company that is producing these Dampers has been making them for other applications for a while now, and are used on the NHRA Circuit because they reduce the chance for an on track engine failure. (Solid Pullies are not legal in the NHRA because of that fact)

I hope that this helps answer your questions. I am getting a write up from the MFG on the actual operation on the inside of the damper so that you all can better understand how this product works.

 

Solid pulleys are a terrible idea. Lots of Hondas and Mazdas have blown their engines as a direct result of running solid pulleys. It's not just the vibrations, but also the torsion on the crank that needs to be damped. That is especially important when running significantly more power than stock.

 

Uprated belt tensioners and uprated idler pulleys are already available from one of the best vendors on the MINI scene:

http://www.gttuning.com/parts3.asp

Hope you find that useful

Henry

 

Well this mod looks great for me . I'm in whenever you guys want to make a group buy on this item.

Dan, is the 17% reduction pulley and the Damper combination the optimal modification in order to run ok.

 

Do you ship items to Turkey? I want one

 

I do ship items internationally. Please send me an e-mail Dan@piloracing.com

JLM, Regarding wanting to know who the MFG is, I've had issue with people / Vendors trying to go to my MFG Partners, and get items out from under me after I have done lots of work and time in marketing an item. For this reason, I now keep this information to myself. As with all my products that I sell, I use the best companies that I can find, that are well known in there field of expertise. DRP Racing for Cyinder heads and Accessory Porting, Atomic Speedware for the Pilo Racing Pistons and Forged Rods, Calico for Performance Coatings. I think that the list is longer, and many great products have come out from my efforts, as well as I have disoclosed much information about who I work with. I hope that this answers your questions, and calms your fears.

 

Anyone care to estimate max boost with a 19% pulley? 22lbs?

Despite a few ney-sayers, we haven't seen structural failures directly related to 17 or 18lb boost 19% pulleys. This product presents an opportunity to push the envelope further. I think the Neon community has proven the bottem end of this motor can hang. Just wondering about the top end. I can understand why it would not be recommended... but 2 years ago the 19% wasn't recommended either.

At the risk of sounding moronic, can I toss out these thoughts for opinions...
Aside from detonation issues, what else is at risk? Head gasket or the head bolts? Water pump cavitation? (can't see where brief trips to redline would cause an overheat condition)

There are some other products available to help reduce detonation risks: A more efficient IC, oil cooler, 94 octain fuel, careful sparkplug selection, low temp thermostat, H2O sprayer for the IC. Collectively is this enough insurance for an agressively driven daily driver that only sees a dozen 1/4 mile runs a year?

 

thanks to you who sent me to the other threads; i learned something today!

the dinan description was an excellent summary for non-engineers. from what i've seen on the mini and miata forums, i suspect it was spot on about a lot of these pulleys/accessories being "designed" and sold by people who've never run the numbers.

 

I can and will do run's with the 19% to see what happens in terms of boost. I personally would not leave it at that though.

 

Here is some information regarding Harmonics, and the Damper.

The company that we are using, Has been making dampers for many cars for well over 20 years. They make applications for large V8, I6, and V6, as well as I4 as in Honda, Acura, Mitsubishi, Toyota, and Ford Compacts.



Here is some information regarding Harmonics, and the Damper.

Quote:

Our design is simple and based on a concept so successful that it has been used longer than any other damper design.

Each time a cylinder fires the resulting combustion creates a tremendous amount of pressure, which becomes the force applied to the crankshaft. Each combustion is like a hammer blow to the top of the piston. It hits with enough force to cause the crankshaft not only to turn, but to twist as well. This twisting, along with the accompanying rebound (when the crank rebounds back in the opposite direction), is known as torsional vibration. This explains the broken parts that result in the absence of a good damper.

Here is another way to look at it: imagine a tuning fork. Once hit, it will ring at a certain frequency. A crank will act just like that tuning fork. But, harmonics become destructive to a crank as it reaches its natural frequency. And, the longer the crank remains at this critical point the more severe the damage will be. So you can see why a high revving endurance motor needs a good damper

 

Assuming the product is well made, it sounds like a good thing because it is marginally lighter. There have been a lot of claims and diffuted claims about the faults of the non-damper style pulley, but I have yet to see any arguments for not using a properly damped pulley.


Dan, are you saying some of your partners might try to sell direct? shame, shame on them.

 

None of them would sell direct, but it doesn't stop vendors from trying...

 

If the main advantage of the oversized crank pulley is to give 19% pulley performance with a 15% pulley, while being safer "because of a larger belt to supercharger contact area", then what is the difference between this proposed set-up and a 19% with a smaller belt? The reason I ask is:

15% reduction SC pulley: $120.00
Pilo crank pulley (using 1pc. Alta for price estimate): $150.00

19% reduction SC pulley: $120.00
Smaller pulley belt: $20.00

I would also think that the Pilo would be more expensive than the Alta considering it has a damper and is a more complicated piece to produce. With that said, if the difference in performance between the two aformentioned set-ups is negligible, what advantage does the set-up using the Pilo crank pulley have over the 19% set-up? Is a smaller belt just a bandaid, while the oversized crank pulley is a more harmonized solution? Will the weight difference of the Pilo vs. stock be so much that it's increased throttle response (judging from Alta crank pulley reviews) will justify the cost?

 

Going with a smaller belt does not increase the contact patch of SC pulley to Belt. That is one of the main reasons for belt failure with the 19% pulley. The cost as specified above will be about 400 dollars, but for those that want the performance gains, with keeping the features of a stock harmonic balancer, this is the way to go. I think that it is worth the extra cash in this case for a lesser chance to throw a belt, and be out a day at the trach from idler pulley damage.

 

i don't think it is at all clear why (if at all) a belt with a 19% pulley is short-lived on the track. here are some factors:

the stock pulley is 2.6" dia, 15% is 2.2 dia, the 19% is 2.0 dia so the diameter, and pretty much the wrap, for the 19% is about 10% less for the 19% compared to the 15%

with the larger crank pulley, the belt is travelling about 5% faster, so...
with the 15% pulley you have 10% more wrap, but 5% more belt speed compared to the 19%.

theory #1 is that it is the tightness of the radius around the pulley that will eventually stress the belt to failure, but I'm not sure the 10% dia. difference between 15 and 19 is significant.

theory #2 is that a faster travelling belt will wear out faster than a slower one.

 

John,
How about the additional backbend required to properly tension the belt? I think backbend is a lot harder on serpentine belts than pulley wrap but Im not really sure. I'll look into it more.

--
Cheese