we also had the first 7 of our 10 2000 m5's delivred bought back because the cars were too powerful... and we will probably run into the same problem with the new e60 m5...

also... its funny i have only heard praise about the carrera gt's clutch and gear box and how delightful it is... but i guess the people reviewing and driving the cars are car guys who know how to drive... also another thought about the cars being traded in early... the cars were about 400K new MSRP... market value however was in th high 500's to low 600's... that may make it easier to trade in when someone rights you a check for over 100K and all you did was buy a car...

hmm... i don't know brings me to an interesting theory... from my experiance these cars with light weight flywheels are very very easy to drive...and if you can't drive a car with a lightend flywheel or are too woried about driveability you shouldn't be moding the car from stock... Seriously guys IT IS SOOOO SIMPLY to drive! its not that hard at all... after a day or two of driving you won't even notice the differnce !

 

If your not frustrated with the stock set up, don't change it. Personally, I find the stock clutch and flywheel "unbearable". It's all personal taste. I wouldn't recommend changing anything without first knowing exactly why you are doing it.

Side note, someone that recently bought a mcs automatic was asking me about hopping it up. I told him about the basic stuff, but he keeps mentioning the light flywheel. Beside the fact that it doesn't have one, why would the word light flywheel even come out of the mouth of someone that enjoys an automatic.

 

Nice post and a lot of thought went into it . I appreciate your feelings . The stock flywheel weighs a little over 28 lbs and that number was thought to be what was needed by the designers of the motor. We cut that in half with no real noticeable issues regarding take off or starting from a stop on a hill. The Mini has a strong clutch but the service writers still have cars come in with less than 7,000 miles on them with burned out clutches due to faulty driving habits. We did not want to contribute to that problem.There are a couple of companies out there with 11 and 12 lb units which I have personally found to be noisier as well as trickier in operation. The common thought that with the Mini specifically that is the bottom range where the car is still street able. As I mentioned before one NAM member paid to have a 9 lb unit installed , at least $800 and then paid it again to have it removed.I don't know if anyone would spend that much to remove a " urban myth " . One would think that if it was even remotely usable he would have lived with it for longer than he did. Perhaps it is the Mini that requires a heavier flywheel that what you have been used to in other cars . Honda's for example can get by with a lighter than normal flywheel from what I have seen in the magazines etc. In any event it all makes for great discussion and again I thank you for your opinion. We will be sticking with what RPS recommended and not offering anything under a 14.5 flywheel.

Randy
M7 Tuning

 

isellem,

I'm glad that you enjoy driving super lightweight flywheel cars, but that doesn't make it so for everybody. I have a 12-pounder that's very drivable but it is, by no means, as easy as the stock flywheel. It takes care to launch on hills.

Bottom line, you can't make generalizations by going from the specific to the general. (i.e. I like chocolate sauce on my hot dogs, therefor chocolate and hot dogs are good and everybody should like it.)

 

vendi... i can appreciate your point of view and agree with you to a point... however... some other people also need to put this view into practice... for example randy made a comment was made that maybe MINI's NEED a heavier flywheel... ITS A CAR with an internal combustion engine... specifically if we are comparing it to hondas (which happens to be one of the cars that i owned with a 6lbs flywheel) the MINI should be easier to drive with it because it has more torque... think about it... the honda and the mini pretty much weigh the same... the honda is front wheel drive like the MINI... they both have similiarly displacement engines but our cooper S's have way more torque than the NA honda motor could muster which should make the MINI much easier to drive than the honda with or without a lightend flywheel... especially uphills etc...

also concerning hot dogs and chocolate sauce and because i like it means everyone else should try it... im just saying don't knock it till ya try it!

seriously though... im just stating that their is alot of misinformation that gets r[font=Arial]egurgitated around here... and i am seriously tired of people regurgitating regurgitated information that was regurgitated to them etc... if you haven't experianced a lightend flywheel and a really lightend one at that... im just saying keep your mind OPEN... otherwise you may regret a decsion you have made[/font]

and as far as MINI customers frying their clutch is 7000 miles... that is because they do not know how to drive stick properly... they would have burned the clutch up on any car in the same amount of time! that has nothing to do with the mechanics of the vehicle or the fact that it is more or less difficult to drive with a heavy or lightend flywheel... they just can't drive period... i could see someone making the arguement that you slip the clutch a little bit more in the mini to get it moving... to that i say... 99% of the rest of us don't seem to need to do that... we haven't had our clutches replaced in 7000 miles (Randy... please don't take this as an attack on your last post)

As far as carrying the RPS flywheel... Cool keep carrying their flywheel im sure its a great product and it works well and people can be happy with it... no arguement their...

and yes for the genaral public anytime you replace a cars dual mass flywheel with a single mass unit... it usually makes alot of racket... to some its not to bad to others the noise is unbearable... if you are finicky don't even go near performance aftermarket clutchs... you will probably end up like the guy who paid 800 dollars twice to have flywheel installed and removed... i had an m3 that i had a lightend flywheel in and it did make some noise in neutral... i just applied a little pressure to the gear lever or pushed the clutch in to make the noise go away... or my favorite was to just turn the music up a little bit more

 

Sorry for my ignorance...how does the rattle of a lighter flywheel differ from the so-called "throw-out bearing" rattle heard on a stock flywheel/clutch MCS??

 

Not sure about the "throwout bearing rattle" you describe but a lightweight flywheel will provide less dampening so every time a cylinder hits, the gears clank together. It's only noticeable when your sitting at a light with your clutch out.

 

the sound of a car that was a dual mass flywheel car that now has a lightend single mass flywheel is very very similar to the sound of a bad/faulty throwout bearing... they even have the same charicteristics as far as they make noise when the clutch is out... and they get quiet when the clutch is in...


maybe that will help bridge the gap on some of your questions

 

Are the two sounds distinguishable? For example, the "throw-out bearing rattle" can be made to essentially disappear if the clutch pedal is released slowly (in neutral)...let the pedal out quickly and my MCS sounds like a little tractor! It's been that way since new.

Some threads on MINI2 have implied that replacing the stock flywheel solves the problem.
http://www.mini2.com/forum/showthread.php?t=45557

Given all the interesting discussion in this thread, I don't understand that approach!?

 

yeah... we have had alot of cars come in like that... mine has done that since new... our dealership replaces the throwout and pilot bearing... clutch and flywheel too... they figure while you are in their just fix everything... its just easier and in the end could prove less expensive...



i haven't had mine replaced yet... im waiting to abuse my clutch a few more times at the drag strip...

and yes... it sounds very very similar...

 

I agree! Additionally, if you have already gone thru a clutch in only 45,000 mile, you will go thru the next one even faster with a lightened flywheel due to the greater difficulty in launching and more clutch slipping and higher revs to achieve a successful launch.

Under normal wear and tear a clutch should last for 100,000 miles or more.

 

The rattle you guys are hearing ( a throwout bearing noise ) is actually excessive engine vibration transferred to the transmission due to inadequate dampening capabilities of the clutch assembly. This will happen when the car is in neutral during cold starts and disappears when the clutch is depressed. There is a fix at the dealer with updated clutches. I never heard of a flywheel making this type of noise.

 

"Updated clutches" - meaning what? Something different than an OEM clutch on 2005's? The "rattle" has been present on my '05 MCS from day one (engage clutch SLOWLY in neutral, and the sound is essentially nil!). There are many posts on Mini2 in which clutch-replacement didn't help.

 

This bulletin was just released last week

 

Do you have a link to the bulletin? I would like to read it.

 

I also would like to see this bulletin if you have it. Thanks.

Bomboasy