Drivetrain What mods giveth, timing retard takes away....
#26
03-06-2006 | 10:40 PM
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 10,340
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From: Woodside, CA
No ECU problems...
Originally Posted by cooper99
Does 100+ octane throw any engine codes? I still have stock ECU and would love to try out the higher octane!
Grrrrrrr! I'll see how much better I can get it with conventional stuff, and see where that leads. I think if I get it in check, it will give me about 5HP or so, and the timing retard is pretty much at all RPMs! Sucks big time.
Thanks for all the thoughs!
Matt
#27
03-06-2006 | 11:43 PM
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Originally Posted by obehave
Distilled water is damn cheap. Water injection is cheap.
My brother ran an 11:1 600+HP big block Mopar on crappy gas.
It works. It cools charges and retards the flame front exactly like high octane fuel burns slower.
And why throw an FMIC into the equation? A stock IC would be fine if you just wanted to improve crap gas performance.
$5-800 for a good Aquamist system and you're done. You don't really need distilled water but it's a good idea. A good tap filter will work.
My brother ran an 11:1 600+HP big block Mopar on crappy gas.
It works. It cools charges and retards the flame front exactly like high octane fuel burns slower.
And why throw an FMIC into the equation? A stock IC would be fine if you just wanted to improve crap gas performance.
$5-800 for a good Aquamist system and you're done. You don't really need distilled water but it's a good idea. A good tap filter will work.
My point is that while there may be ways to theoretically get control of the octane-challenged gas in California, I don't know of anyone who has done it in a production way (other than to use higher octane gas) with the MCS. I would love to be proven wrong.
#28
03-07-2006 | 07:53 AM
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From: Hampton, VA
Originally Posted by caminifan
So, who has a production version water injection system for the MCS? I did a quick google and came up with Snow Performance, but they appear to have only one product - for 96+ GM vehicles equipped with a Mass Airflow sensor. Another company - CoolingMist is trying to get some market traction and is looking for a tuning company to partner with it for a Lotus Elise project.
My point is that while there may be ways to theoretically get control of the octane-challenged gas in California, I don't know of anyone who has done it in a production way (other than to use higher octane gas) with the MCS. I would love to be proven wrong.
My point is that while there may be ways to theoretically get control of the octane-challenged gas in California, I don't know of anyone who has done it in a production way (other than to use higher octane gas) with the MCS. I would love to be proven wrong.
There are a number of users here that have already used or are using an Aquamist system.
M7 was working on it Alta was going to market the Aquamist and Helix was installing them as part of the PSi-Fi turbokompressor
Read the search results some of which are threads you have commented on. Dr O has as well.
https://www.northamericanmotoring.co...archid=1182321
And what does "a production way" have to do with it? The one ball isn't production, the hai isn't production, gutting the pre cat isn't production, etc. Yet they're all being done, even in California.
Water injection is decades old, it works, if you can't accept that, fine but don't try to tell me I'm wrong.
I've personally worked on cars that used it to good affect. My father worked on planes that used it in WWII. They modded supercharged P-38s and it worked.
All I'm saying is that this is an option. A time tested option. You can't negate that based on your opinion.
What you're not understanding is I'm not saying you're wrong and I'm right.
I'm just presenting an option, period. Nothing more.
#29
03-07-2006 | 11:29 AM
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Originally Posted by Dr Obnxs
but I think a saner approach is to make sure that my cooling system is working at peak efficiency, going another step cooler in plugs (but these conduct the heat to the cooling system better, hence getting it working at peak efficiencies) and anything else that will cool the intake charge.
Matt
Matt
I don't know, but assume that MTH and the others make some alterations in the timing approach. If it were possible to tune the timing retard function and set it up based on the actual user's mods and gas, this problem could be addressed in the best possible way. Or am I missing something? <wouldn't be the first time>
#30
03-07-2006 | 11:43 AM
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 10,340
Likes: 4
From: Woodside, CA
Not sure...
Sometimes, when I hammer it, I can hear the pinging. That said, the ignition retard isn't doing enough, so it might be best to take even more of my power away!
With the motor the way it is (combustion chamber, piston tops etc), there are fundimental limits on what you can do, and how much power you can get out of a given type of gas. If you pass that, all you can do is lower intake temps, or raise octane, or something like water injection.
I'll start with the lowering of intake temps, but that will only do so much. That's because if I keep the pressure the same, and lower temps, I'll get more charge in there, and the compression stroke with raise temps more... But I may be able to squeeze more power out of it.
Water inejction may be a must, but I don't like the concept, because the water takes up space that could be used by oxygen, so while it will supress detonation, it also will limit max power available.
Also, the notion of "riding the knock sensor" isn't a bad one per se, it means that you're getting the most out of what can be had at the time, and when it's cooler out, or you have better gas, voila! More power!.....
I've been e-mailing with another S driver in the area. He did half a tank of the 100, and I'm afraid he's hooked too.....
For the water injection, I'm not sure about the cheaper set-ups. To do it right, you need a RPM sensative set up like the Aquamist. I've also read about stand alone ECUs running an "extra" injector for water so that the ratio is kept in control by the computer that runs the motor.
But what I really want is better gas at all the pumps....
Matt
With the motor the way it is (combustion chamber, piston tops etc), there are fundimental limits on what you can do, and how much power you can get out of a given type of gas. If you pass that, all you can do is lower intake temps, or raise octane, or something like water injection.
I'll start with the lowering of intake temps, but that will only do so much. That's because if I keep the pressure the same, and lower temps, I'll get more charge in there, and the compression stroke with raise temps more... But I may be able to squeeze more power out of it.
Water inejction may be a must, but I don't like the concept, because the water takes up space that could be used by oxygen, so while it will supress detonation, it also will limit max power available.
Also, the notion of "riding the knock sensor" isn't a bad one per se, it means that you're getting the most out of what can be had at the time, and when it's cooler out, or you have better gas, voila! More power!.....
I've been e-mailing with another S driver in the area. He did half a tank of the 100, and I'm afraid he's hooked too.....
For the water injection, I'm not sure about the cheaper set-ups. To do it right, you need a RPM sensative set up like the Aquamist. I've also read about stand alone ECUs running an "extra" injector for water so that the ratio is kept in control by the computer that runs the motor.
But what I really want is better gas at all the pumps....
Matt
#31
03-07-2006 | 11:56 AM
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Originally Posted by obehave
There are a number of users here that have already used or are using an Aquamist system.
M7 was working on it Alta was going to market the Aquamist and Helix was installing them as part of the PSi-Fi turbokompressor
M7 was working on it Alta was going to market the Aquamist and Helix was installing them as part of the PSi-Fi turbokompressor
Originally Posted by obehave
And what does "a production way" have to do with it? The one ball isn't production, the hai isn't production, gutting the pre cat isn't production, etc. Yet they're all being done, even in California.
Originally Posted by obehave
All I'm saying is that this is an option. A time tested option. You can't negate that based on your opinion.
What you're not understanding is I'm not saying you're wrong and I'm right.
I'm just presenting an option, period. Nothing more.
What you're not understanding is I'm not saying you're wrong and I'm right.
I'm just presenting an option, period. Nothing more.
That is all that I was attempting to communicate. Nothing more.
#32
03-07-2006 | 12:16 PM
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Originally Posted by Dr Obnxs
I've been e-mailing with another S driver in the area. He did half a tank of the 100, and I'm afraid he's hooked too.....
Originally Posted by Dr Obnxs
For the water injection, I'm not sure about the cheaper set-ups. To do it right, you need a RPM sensative set up like the Aquamist. I've also read about stand alone ECUs running an "extra" injector for water so that the ratio is kept in control by the computer that runs the motor.
Originally Posted by Dr Obnxs
But what I really want is better gas at all the pumps....
I have been thinking about a Plan B - an auxiliary gas tank where the rear seat would normally be. The auxiliary gas tank would extend the range of the MCS; while not as convenient as universally available 100 octane unleaded, it is a more realistic solution.
#33
03-07-2006 | 12:50 PM
#34
03-07-2006 | 12:59 PM
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From: Hampton, VA
Originally Posted by caminifan
None of the vendors you have listed have a water injection product offering on their web sites. While I don't for a moment doubt that water injection can be used to reduce pinging and the resulting timing retard, I have yet to see where any vendor has actually created a product around water injection for the MCS. While you may be interested in doing the development work to get to a production product, I am not.
Every modification you have mentioned is in no way as sophisticated as getting a water injection system ready for prime time (daily driver use in a variety of temperature environments and engine loads).
My previous posts were not about wrong versus right. Rather, I tend to focus on cost versus benefit. Therefore my reference to the cost of running 100 octane racing unleaded as a proven solution to timing retard. I have certainty of the solution by running 100 octane racing unleaded; I don't have anywhere near certainty of a solution (on either cost or performance metrics) by resorting to an attempt to develop a water injection solution.
That is all that I was attempting to communicate. Nothing more.
Every modification you have mentioned is in no way as sophisticated as getting a water injection system ready for prime time (daily driver use in a variety of temperature environments and engine loads).
My previous posts were not about wrong versus right. Rather, I tend to focus on cost versus benefit. Therefore my reference to the cost of running 100 octane racing unleaded as a proven solution to timing retard. I have certainty of the solution by running 100 octane racing unleaded; I don't have anywhere near certainty of a solution (on either cost or performance metrics) by resorting to an attempt to develop a water injection solution.
That is all that I was attempting to communicate. Nothing more.
well here you go then easy as pie.
Nice little tech article
They don't have to make one specifically for the MCS. Why would they have to. It squirts water. You set how much and when.
I wasn't comparing sophistication.
You said
Originally Posted by caminifan
So, who has a production version water injection system for the MCS? I did a quick google and came up with Snow Performance, but they appear to have only one product - for 96+ GM vehicles equipped with a Mass Airflow sensor. Another company - CoolingMist is trying to get some market traction and is looking for a tuning company to partner with it for a Lotus Elise project.
Maybe I should have used the APEXI hacks, people grinding up and welding supercharger housings, building custom exhaust systems which for some people would be very complicated, some not.
None of these are "prime time" either are they? Whatever prime time is.
Might want to tell these guys they aren't ready for "prime time"
From the ERL/ Aquamist web site:
Originally Posted by ERL
ERL was formed in 1980, initially designing and manufacturing industrial and telecommunications equipment. In 1986 we began our involvement with the automotive sector, mainly researching the effect of water inside the internal combustion engine. Two years later our first electronic water-injection system was born: the first system on the market that could accurately meter water-flow. It received a very warm reception at the 1988 Design Show in Birmingham, England. A few months later a parallel aftermarket system was launched, to explosive market reaction: just about every automotive journal wrote it up, and over one hundred systems were sold in the following nine months.
By 1992 mainstream car-makers were waking up to the benefits of water-injection: first Volvo contacted us, and we designed and made a system to enable their engineers to explore the enormous cooling effect of introducing water into a relatively high-compression turbo-charged engine. Rolls Royce was next to get in touch: we designed them an advanced learning/self-programming unit, which enabled their engineers to extract more power and torque from their existing 6.7 litre turbo-charged engines (their Bentley Malsanne turbo broke the 0-60MPH sprint in under 6 seconds). During this era ERL came up with the world's most intelligent water-injection system, listening for engine-knock and programming its own water-map, using flash memory in the ECU.
About the same time, the Ford Motor Company 'phoned unexpectedly. "Can you supply 3,000 water jets yesterday?" "Yes of course: if you had called yesterday, you would have had them on your desk today..." we replied. That was our first major encounter with a real life-and-death situation: we shipped the lot in six weeks with only a few minutes to spare! The first of the new Cosworth Escorts rolled off the German production line in January 1993. Each car was fitted with our specially-developed water jet. To date over 5,000 jets have been delivered, and we are still shipping them out every month. The 'phone rang again yesterday, but ... it wasn't Ford!
In 1997 we are committed to devoting a large amount of our time to our aftermarket customers: after all, they have given us the thrills and excitement to carry on: no words can describe the smell of high-octane fuel, nor the ticking of the high-lift cam. "To tell the truth, all advancement of the internal combustion engine comes from the aftermarket world, a place where everything goes, acknowledging no limits," said the departmental head of a world-sized motor manufacturer.
By 1992 mainstream car-makers were waking up to the benefits of water-injection: first Volvo contacted us, and we designed and made a system to enable their engineers to explore the enormous cooling effect of introducing water into a relatively high-compression turbo-charged engine. Rolls Royce was next to get in touch: we designed them an advanced learning/self-programming unit, which enabled their engineers to extract more power and torque from their existing 6.7 litre turbo-charged engines (their Bentley Malsanne turbo broke the 0-60MPH sprint in under 6 seconds). During this era ERL came up with the world's most intelligent water-injection system, listening for engine-knock and programming its own water-map, using flash memory in the ECU.
About the same time, the Ford Motor Company 'phoned unexpectedly. "Can you supply 3,000 water jets yesterday?" "Yes of course: if you had called yesterday, you would have had them on your desk today..." we replied. That was our first major encounter with a real life-and-death situation: we shipped the lot in six weeks with only a few minutes to spare! The first of the new Cosworth Escorts rolled off the German production line in January 1993. Each car was fitted with our specially-developed water jet. To date over 5,000 jets have been delivered, and we are still shipping them out every month. The 'phone rang again yesterday, but ... it wasn't Ford!
In 1997 we are committed to devoting a large amount of our time to our aftermarket customers: after all, they have given us the thrills and excitement to carry on: no words can describe the smell of high-octane fuel, nor the ticking of the high-lift cam. "To tell the truth, all advancement of the internal combustion engine comes from the aftermarket world, a place where everything goes, acknowledging no limits," said the departmental head of a world-sized motor manufacturer.
Now if somebody will just send me one I'll dyno the snot out of it
As long as I get to keep it.
#35
03-07-2006 | 01:07 PM
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From: Hampton, VA
I knew I'd seen them someplace.
Good stuff.
I can see it now. In the back yard, in a poorly ventilated shed, bottles of chemicals around.
Here comes the DEA to bust you for running a crack lab
But officer I was just spiking my gas!!!
#36
03-07-2006 | 01:22 PM
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It must be a slow day...
Originally Posted by obehave
What?
well here you go then easy as pie.
Nice little tech article
They don't have to make one specifically for the MCS. Why would they have to. It squirts water. You set how much and when.
well here you go then easy as pie.
Nice little tech article
They don't have to make one specifically for the MCS. Why would they have to. It squirts water. You set how much and when.
Originally Posted by obehave
I wasn't comparing sophistication.
Originally Posted by obehave
You said
Originally Posted by obehave
I was pointing out projects that aren't production that have been done.
Maybe I should have used the APEXI hacks, people grinding up and welding supercharger housings, building custom exhaust systems which for some people would be very complicated, some not.
None of these are "prime time" either are they? Whatever prime time is.
Might want to tell these guys they aren't ready for "prime time"
Maybe I should have used the APEXI hacks, people grinding up and welding supercharger housings, building custom exhaust systems which for some people would be very complicated, some not.
None of these are "prime time" either are they? Whatever prime time is.
Might want to tell these guys they aren't ready for "prime time"
Originally Posted by obehave
From the ERL/ Aquamist web site:
Yep, just a bunch of beginners selling a DIY project kit
Yep, just a bunch of beginners selling a DIY project kit
#37
03-07-2006 | 01:25 PM
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I suspect that all of the solutions are more expensive than running 100 octane racing unleaded. If you have access to a service station that sells the 100 octane brew, that is....
#38
03-07-2006 | 01:28 PM
Toluene as an octane booster isn't worth diddly-poop. See the following article from EC - "Octane Boosters Tested" - http://europeancarweb.com/tech/0503ec_techboost/
#39
03-07-2006 | 01:38 PM
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From: Hampton, VA
Originally Posted by caminifan
There is a minor matter of squirting too much water. Also, each of the URLs you cited mentioned their products as a great foundation for a project - a characterization which I have no issue with, other than that I would have to do the development work.
You should.
I said what?
Hey, whatever floats their boat. I am looking for solutions where someone else has footed the development effort, and I can make a relatively simple decision based on the cost and benefit of the respective solution.
But it has not been productized for the MCS. You seem to be wrapped around the axle about my not wanting to validate work that others have done in the water injection area. All I am looking for is something that I can make a relatively straightforward cost-benefit decision on. I have never said that water injection is not viable; just not viable from the perspective of a solution that I would not have do all kinds of development work on. I like to enjoy my cars; not spend all my free time working on them.
You should.
I said what?
Hey, whatever floats their boat. I am looking for solutions where someone else has footed the development effort, and I can make a relatively simple decision based on the cost and benefit of the respective solution.
But it has not been productized for the MCS. You seem to be wrapped around the axle about my not wanting to validate work that others have done in the water injection area. All I am looking for is something that I can make a relatively straightforward cost-benefit decision on. I have never said that water injection is not viable; just not viable from the perspective of a solution that I would not have do all kinds of development work on. I like to enjoy my cars; not spend all my free time working on them.
This could go on but I'm bored.
You're right what was I thinking.
Mooo..... compliant cattle coming through.....mooo.....nothing different here...moooooooove along folks
#40
03-07-2006 | 01:50 PM
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 10,340
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From: Woodside, CA
I've been talking to a few folks...
who have tried water injection, and I haven't found anyone who has really gotten benefit on the S with it.
I'll see if I can find a system, and it's possible that the benefit will be regional due to average local quality of gas..... Maybe if you can get good 93, it doesn't help too much, but if you can't get good gas, maybe it does.
There are a lot of unknowns here. We'll see what shakes out.
Matt
I'll see if I can find a system, and it's possible that the benefit will be regional due to average local quality of gas..... Maybe if you can get good 93, it doesn't help too much, but if you can't get good gas, maybe it does.
There are a lot of unknowns here. We'll see what shakes out.
Matt
#41
03-07-2006 | 02:20 PM
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From: a canyon, south Bay Area
I'm actually not too far from some 100, and i've been thinking about it...
What about a concentrate... such as:
http://www.need4speedpower.com/torco.html
What about a concentrate... such as:
http://www.need4speedpower.com/torco.html
#42
03-07-2006 | 02:23 PM
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From: Hampton, VA
Originally Posted by Dr Obnxs
who have tried water injection, and I haven't found anyone who has really gotten benefit on the S with it.
I'll see if I can find a system, and it's possible that the benefit will be regional due to average local quality of gas..... Maybe if you can get good 93, it doesn't help too much, but if you can't get good gas, maybe it does.
There are a lot of unknowns here. We'll see what shakes out.
Matt
I'll see if I can find a system, and it's possible that the benefit will be regional due to average local quality of gas..... Maybe if you can get good 93, it doesn't help too much, but if you can't get good gas, maybe it does.
There are a lot of unknowns here. We'll see what shakes out.
Matt
Other than my anecdotal, old timer, NA V8, back in the '70s stuff.
#44
03-07-2006 | 02:43 PM
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From: a canyon, south Bay Area
Looks like the guy is open to group buys (on page 2):
http://www.msprotege.com/forum/printthread.php?t=53082
While we are losing-out on a few hp on CA pump gas, with 25% average humidity (a guess), we get at least some back compared to wetter states :
http://wahiduddin.net/calc/calc_hp.htm
http://www.msprotege.com/forum/printthread.php?t=53082
While we are losing-out on a few hp on CA pump gas, with 25% average humidity (a guess), we get at least some back compared to wetter states
:http://wahiduddin.net/calc/calc_hp.htm
#45
03-07-2006 | 02:50 PM
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For what it's worth, here in Texas 93 octane is plentiful. My car never pings or knocks on 93. With 91 octane it will ping some especially in summer, and there's noticably less power. And with 87 octane / regular gas the performance is really poor. I never put it on the track but I do drive pretty spiritedly.
I have MTH Tuner software, an Alta cold air intake, 17% pulley and 1 step colder plugs (NGK BKR7EIX-11). JCW injectors and exhaust are the next to go on as soon as the exhaust arrives.
I have MTH Tuner software, an Alta cold air intake, 17% pulley and 1 step colder plugs (NGK BKR7EIX-11). JCW injectors and exhaust are the next to go on as soon as the exhaust arrives.
#46
03-07-2006 | 02:55 PM
Originally Posted by Dr Obnxs
For the water injection, I'm not sure about the cheaper set-ups. To do it right, you need a RPM sensative set up like the Aquamist. I've also read about stand alone ECUs running an "extra" injector for water so that the ratio is kept in control by the computer that runs the motor.
did some more research, check this site out http://www.fjoracing.com/products/waterinjection/
#47
03-07-2006 | 03:35 PM
#48
03-07-2006 | 03:51 PM
Originally Posted by OldRick
Toluene as an octane booster isn't worth diddly-poop. See the following article from EC - "Octane Boosters Tested" - http://europeancarweb.com/tech/0503ec_techboost/
but yet they say"Premium street gasoline carries roughly 3- to 5% toluene, which partially helps octane characteristics. Unocal's 100-octane race gas has almost 25% toluene..."
#49
03-07-2006 | 04:13 PM
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From: Lafayette, CA
that looks like a sweet setup. thanks.
Originally Posted by Johan
There's a system out there, Snow performance, that is boost initiated. It is a general design for gas engines with 8-30lbs of boost. It looks simple enough to install! The price is around $390.00. -- JOHAN
did some more research, check this site out http://www.fjoracing.com/products/waterinjection/
did some more research, check this site out http://www.fjoracing.com/products/waterinjection/
#50
03-07-2006 | 04:47 PM
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From: Long Beach, CA
So, a little help please:
Given only a 15% pulley, colder plugs, CAI, cat-back, and gutted pre-cat MCS header, AND a yet-to-be-named ECU tune, will the engine will start pinging unless the charge gets cooled down?
How much modding can you do without starting the pinging (in CA on 91 octane)?
Do some ECU tuners help more than others, given this list of other engine mods?
Does the 15% pulley immediately cause the pinging, or do you have to go with more pulley reduction than that to cause the detonation?
Thanks.
Given only a 15% pulley, colder plugs, CAI, cat-back, and gutted pre-cat MCS header, AND a yet-to-be-named ECU tune, will the engine will start pinging unless the charge gets cooled down?
How much modding can you do without starting the pinging (in CA on 91 octane)?
Do some ECU tuners help more than others, given this list of other engine mods?
Does the 15% pulley immediately cause the pinging, or do you have to go with more pulley reduction than that to cause the detonation?
Thanks.