With its 2 extra rolls and their aero dynamic design of its flange, that should help a little bit if not much on the flow, and the heat to prevent the loss in power, especially at higher speed and rpm. I think, its good for track use.

There are couple of threads regarding to the benefit of the GP intercooler. Very interesting though.

And with my experience, I can feel some improvement after having the iC installed.

Any way, Like I said some of the blings is cool.

 

And I repeatedly said if your having fun, that's cool.
"If your happy, cool"

Please dont take what I wrote as criticism because it was not. I was trying to interpret what LDG was saying, not criticizing. I still believe his message was tied to:

Whats your goal?
Whats your plan?

You wrote:

"my plan is very simple, to study, do researches, experiments and have fun with it, starting from hardwares then finalize with the right tuning to make everything works at full protential. And the goal is not number but the enjoyment".

Your goal: "enjoyment"
Your plan: study, do research, bring to full potential

This sounds backwards ... "bring to full potential" is a goal, one you may not achieve without spending a LOT of money in the process. Now if spending money is fun, cool. Enjoyment is cool because your spending money. But bring it to full potential via a random path ... when others have already been down this path and learned from their mistakes ...

Then what is the point of repeating the mistakes of others????
Others have been down the road your traveling. All the "mistakes" you are making (or not) have already been made. Why not learn from them and choose the most cost effective means to the end? If your having fun, OK, but I hardly think "most" people would not think thats fun when the money flies out the window. Others have thrown parts on without an overall plan long before you bought your car. Some of them have learned from that. Why not take advantage of that?

While some ppl may do it for "fun", most do it as a means to an end, not to just have fun. Therefore, learning from those who came before you, would be advantegeous. LDG, I believe, was trying to explain that presuming you had a performance goal because then there were better processes.

Given that assumption, see https://www.northamericanmotoring.co...ight=bang+buck
from there its pretty clear from those with experience, they have "been there, done that". Throwing bolt-ons to experiment? Others have done that and were disappointed. Learn from Spyder. He's "da man"

Plz remember, the presumption, which is to get to a real performance goal ... not just tinker for enjoyment. And thats falls back to what I repeatedly said, If your happy, thats cool

IC? Bling.
CAM? W/out the head work to match the characteristics of the cam ... valve opening, closing, etc, for all you know, you may have made things worse?

I completely understand the part about spending money when you have it

I was trying to make peace, your right. I think LDG was trying to educate Maxi and maybe he took it the wrong way. I did say "Wow"

Your stated goal now is

The goal is to have fun with my car

In that case, your fine. Your having fun, that's cool. As you said, its not about HP so your approach no longer matter. Remember, I (and I assume LDG) was assuming you had some particular performance goal in mind (e.g., better low end torque, higher RPM HP, etc.)

With that goal, there is NOTHING wrong with your approach. If your goal happened to be something else, which you claim it isn't now, then LDG clearly said:

What matters is that because he did it a certain way and posted about his experience here someone else will see this and think that it is the right thing to do just because it gave him pleasure. That's the point.

I believe his point is about education and others will read this thread and think throwing on a GP IC and JCW catback in some kind of order you choice is the optimum path (both financial and engineering-wise) to go, when it may not be. It's been optimum for your because your having fun. It may not be optimal for someone seeking the biggest gains for the cheapest money ... and considering reliability issues, mpg or whatever else "they" may have in mind.
The voice of reason You got it

Again, there is nothing wrong with your approach if your goal is "fun". I believe their is something wrong with your approach if the goal is to achieve XXX hp XXX torque, using $$$ money, with a torque curve of YYY and HP curve of ZZZ

Just a quick example:

Pulley aside, I'm guessing parts only:

JCW intake = $350
JCW exhaust = $1000?
IK22 spark plugs
JCW injectors =
GP intercooler = ~$500?
Schrick camshaft = ~$600

So maybe $2400 or so spent?

For $2K you could have got a head and got more power by that alone ... then add the cam when you got the money, then add headers. More power from headers than any catback. IC is pure bling.

But I really do understand you want to have fun, your having fun, and that is cool I think LDG was trying to help and that's cool

Peace and have a great time

One last thought .... you wrote:

Get parts install and tune at the same times, the performance gain = x.

Get the same parts but install one at the time then with the same tuning and at the end the performance gain = y.

Should x = y? I believe so.

I don't believe so, simply because power is not additive like that. For example, if you added a CAI and it claims 3 bhp and then headers and it claims 8 bhp, the total is not 11.

Further, with all your boltons, if you just bought the head to begin with, I do not believe you can go add x+y+z plus the head gives me, for example, 30. In fact, the head itself might give 20 and the effect of x+y+z lessons because "everything" changes once you do internals work. The very basic working premise has changed because the effect of the JCW CAI may be totally different on a stock head vice a JCW head vice a Super Duper Cooper head.

And so, buying that JCW CAI "might" be the wrong choice to begin with The JCW CAI is probably matched to the JCW head. It's probably far worse with exhausts. Exhaust gas scavanging should be directly related to the internals. ECU tuning messes with the effects of the boltons (pretty sure) making the engine believe what the tuner wants it to believe based on the overall engine. Building an engine is probably (and I could be wrong) done best from the bottom up, work the pistons, then the head, and last the bolt-ons.

So yes, I believe your theory is not correct. Sorry

But have fun, I know you are, and dont worry about all this stuff. The MOST important thing is your having fun ... seriously

 

I'm still stand correct on my statement above.

I did not and never calculate the performance gain from adding up like x+y+z. I think I know better than that.

This is what I've tried to said, for example

If you install intake, exhaust, pulley, proper tune them and dyno for baseline, the result will be X

Then give me the reason why you won't get the same X if we install the intake today and drive for a week, then install the exhaust, drive for another month and get a pulley, drive for couple of days then do the same properly tune as the first option. The dyno result should be pretty close, if not the same.

And for the intake and exhaust, you mention it might not be the good idea to get the JCW parts. We don't have any concrete evident on the statement to confirm that, without the head, the parts will not give any benefit. Should I get Alta, One ball, Milltek, M7 or etc instead?.

It's personal preference actually. Come on, be real. We do heard a lot of times about how is the xxx exhaust sounds like, not how much gain do we get or does it will work well with the xxx intake.

You know what, may be we have a different way of looking at things.
Some might looking for pure performance, cost effective, some might be half performance half bling and someone might be a bling all out. Some can wait and do everything at one time, some will rather do step by step.
I don't see anything wrong with that, except someone might lose benefit or market share.

BTW, here is about the list of my (bling) parts:

JCW intake $360
JCW Exhaust $650
JCW injectors $260
JCW software $55, good to have a good relationship with the SA.
Pulley $120
GP intercooler $650, Love to pop up the bonnet to look at it.
IK22 plug >$50
Spark plug wires $80, pure bling , I'd love to have some red color accent in the engine bay.
Schrick camshaft $350, on sale @ MoS.

Well those are all my blings, and to be honest. I've never disappointed on any parts that I've chosen. The Mini runs great, actually getting better and better, and the blings look cool.

It's also a good idea if LDG is trying to educate Mini owners. Is it really the main reason, or he's frustrated from a potential of loosing customers, I don't know.
Lets look at the bright side, if he really mean to educate then, it is much better to do it on his own place. People can always check it out over there.

He's ruining some fun here.

And now, thanks to the moderator, the title's changed to "Just a little fun before getting JCW kit, Err....my way". I will continue have fun with the MINI, .....my very own way. Cheers.

 

Oh, by the way.

If I want to complete the project according to the title. JCW head is all I need. Then it's done.

Now, is it a good time for JCW brake kit?

 

And there were also a few threads a while ago claiming that devices like the tornado fuel saver actually made a difference in their mileage. That didn't make it fact...

 

And that is my point. how do you know if you don't try it yourself?

Listen to one vendor and trash other vendors. Who can you trust?

Or just listen to "been there, done that?"

I listen, study, investigate and try. I trust the sources that I believe that their info is reliable enough.

That is why, I'm starting this thread. Because I'm doing it my way. I'm not following anyone plan or goal.

BTW: I have the intercooler, and I have good result, look great in the engine bay and I'm happy with it.

 

Yes, I will buy into that all else being equal. Whether or not that is cost effective is another question.

I have to presume that JCW tested their TCs for many, many miles and they are meant to work together. Repeatedly, people have said JCW cars are smooth and the parts work well together. Whether they are optimum for the OEM head, dunno. Get Alta, M7 etc.? I'm glad you brought that up. Refer to LDGs website

Bespoke tuning is much better than dropping a generic map (like JCW) into a car. http://www.luckydoggarage.com/tuning.htm

"...we don’t “plug and play.” we believe plug and play exists not because it’s the best solution, but because it’s the easiest to sell."

I believe that is 100% true. Any vendor would be glad to sell you whatever ... whether its the best for the application doesn't matter. They got your money. And you will never know if its the best. Later on your ask who do you trust? Just listen to those who have been there done that? Well ... what is the old saying about those who don't learn from history are doomed to repeat it? Why not learn from those who have "been there, done that"??????? What is the point of repeating what others have already done?

And why is that? I'm guessing because many people buy catbacks for sound bling and nothing more. So you see threads full of sound bites that might totally disregard if they actually make power. Some ppl do dyno switching catbacks. There is at least one post on MINI2 where someone found the Borla Race got 2 bhp more than the JCW But I think you missed what I was trying to say ... you build from the bottom up, not from the top down (pretty sure that is what a race engine would do). You don't say ... "Hmm, I want a JCW CAI and a Borla Catback so what size pistons should I use?" when it comes down to doing the serious work.

Examples: Take a look at the "old one". Pretty well respected in the industry. http://www.theoldone.com/components/...ead_modifi.htm
now look at the headers he sells. Do you not think he might match the headers to his heads? I have to presume he does. Here is a company making heads (general philosophy) http://www.hrdracingheads.com/air_flow.html

"There is a definite intake to exhaust ratio in terms of air flow that must be attained in order to produce maximum efficiency. This is one of the things the amateur head porter often overlooks or isn't even aware of. When an intake system is improved, the exhaust system must be brought into the proper ratio or balance to achieve maximum horsepower."

How would you translate that? I read it to mean, you need to match the intake/exhausts to the head. If you just bolt stuff on without a plan, its mismatched. Note the part about proper balance. So if you bolt on some intake and exhaust sold by the myriad of MINI vendors, will it match the head?

Another quote:

"Air flow and dyno tests have proved without a doubt that a super smooth finish will not gain horsepower. In fact, in some areas a certain amount of texture or roughness os needed to insure fuel suspension in the air stream. ..."

Many times you will find on NAM criticism of the JCW head for being rough, yet maybe the did know what they were doing and matched components?

Schrick CAM, yes a major producer for many cars ... the masse. Quote:

"After a head has been reworked to its maximum flow efficiency, a proper cam can then be selected to match the head and the intended use of engine."

Translated to me: You buy a CAM after you do the head to match the characteristics of the head. ... Not the other way around.

I cant speak to that but dont you think its a good idea to learn?

I dont understand that philosophy at all. So why not buy an turbonator on eBay or Vortex generator and try it? Go ahead and ignore everyone mocking them. If you follow that approach, I hope you got really deep pockets because it can get very expensive.

I see no reason whatsoever to not learn from what others have done, especially those who "job" it is to build race cars (or whatever). Your approach is very similiar to saying:

"I'm going to jump into the flooding river because I don't KNOW I will drown until I try. I dont care that others have drowned!!!"

I hope you dont drown

Bottom line, bolt-on whatever you want, have fun, just dont expect them to all match and once you start the serious work, dont expect them to be an optimal match for the engine internals because, IMO, you have approached this backwards. Any vendor will sell you whatever you want.

Again, I was just trying to help, thats all. If your happy, your happy ... and in the end, that is all that matters

ON with the FUN! Dont mean to be a downer here ... Fun is always COOL!

 

You've missed one part. What I said is:

"Listen to one vendor and trash other vendors?. Who can you trust?
Or just listen to "been there, done that?"
I listen, study, investigate and try. I trust the sources that I believe that their info is reliable enough.
That's why, I'm starting this thread. Because I'm doing it my way. I'm not following anyone plan or goal."

Also you've missed:

"It's also a good idea if LDG is trying to educate Mini owners. Is it really the main reason, or he's frustrated from a potential of loosing customers, I don't know.Lets look at the bright side, if he really mean to educate then, it is much better to do it on his own place. People can always check it out over there."


It's my car, my money, my time and my enjoyment. And I'm sharing my fun, my experience with the others. Its my plan, my goal and everythings looking good as plan,....for me.

Instead of paying JCW kit for +$4k, I choose to get it installed one at the time, and enjoy to observe, study the improvement and share my experience with the others, and in the sudden you guys jump out and say this is not the way to do, this is wrong.

Oh well, like I have said before, we have very different ways of looking at things. And sure enough, we have different way of having fun with our cars.

You know what, I give up.

I can't believe even after changing the title, still, I can not do it my way,....peacefully.

 

Absolutely correct

Best of Luck

 

Thanks.

 

wow!? i'm gone a whole weekend, and the last two pages is what I miss?!

i may be ringin a little late here. But i feel i must word my opinion.

i know Chris got his MINI to have fun like all the rest of us.

The same way, i bought my MINI. Had to have fun. Before buying my MINI, i knew that other than the dealer I would need a trustworthy person (usually representing a garage) for all my advice and any work i need done other than dealer services. So even if this board didn't exist, i can still count on that one person for all/any advice i need to do anything with my car.

In my past experience, i have found usually the people that work and race these cars (if not themselves, they have someone else who is)are usually the better guys to do any work.


Now i know John posted in saying what to do and not do. But i'm pretty sure he finally chimed in once Chris was saying he had gotten the cam installed. Now from my experience and knowledge, this is not something you do until after changing the head. This may actually hinder the performance, since usually the stock head is already matched with it's own cam.

usually with bolt ons you can get away with whichever one first. But as far as I'm aware, once you start changing internals, there is a proper order of things that can be done. Doing them out of order can put you at risk.

I'm only saying these things, cuz i'm assuming that Chris along with many other people want to keep their reliability up. If wanting to do that you would have to follow that order of installs for the internal since they are vital parts.

I know Chris, that you have done your study and research on everything, but i just ask if you found that information somewhere in your search. I know you have been on this project, so i'm sure you've been researching for a long time. And it's always fun!

I like you did the same. But it was more of, what can i do and can't do to this car to make a real difference, while keeping my reliability. I started asking about different parts. I was told I didn't need those parts. don't waste your money. with the money spent on these parts they are so minuscule of gains or none at all. of course, i want stuff that will be good for track use, because i know of the harshness put on all the parts, so I know they need to be able to stand up to that. so I said ok, and went on about my day. That didn't cost me anything except an hour of a great time with a very knowledgeable person. That to me is priceless.

Chris, there is not any offense of what i'm writing. I am just expressing the way I have read the last two pages. I know you are having fun by doing everything, as am I.

I just hope to be a part of your fun by knowing that some of my informational advice was put to good use and maybe made other things clear'er.

hope to see you at more club events, and maybe i'll "bump" into you in columbia again sometime!

Happy Motoring!

 

The vendor that works on my MINI, works and race MINIs for quite sometimes. And I do trust them.

I get your point, but that is not always the case. Some camshafts are designed to work well with stock head and valvetrain, to enhance the performance of the stock set up. Some are designed to work with the mod head setup. Sometimes they're called street cam, race cam etc., They have more or less agressive profiles.
According to the info directly from Schrick, the camshaft that I have got is an earlier version and is on the milder side, it was design base on and to work with the stock head and valve train. It might works better with better head but not nessessary.

And since the cam works fine without any problem with the set up that I have, and gain Xhp @ $Y, why hurry to add the head and pay another $2k.
I can wait and do that later on. May be, I can use that budget to improve the stopping power, can't I?

So which one from the parts is out of order? Camshaft?, please see above.

the bolt-on parts that I have, mostly are JCW parts and software, only the camshaft and the pulley that are off-brand, but they are designed for the car. I'm sure my Mini is and will be as reliable as any stock one.

I did do my homeworks and always do. Like I've mentioned earlier, my Mini works great as expected.
It's not as powerful as +200 whp Mini, but can give me big smiles everytime.

I did the same. And one thing that I learn, I listen to everyone to get all info then use my own judgement base on my researches, knowledge, advices from trustworthy sources and my own experience. And I, too, have great times with knowledgeable persons, not just one, a few though.

You've heard these before: software vendor bashed on hardwares, Hardware vendors said their products will work fine without any software tweaking, etc.
Who should we listen to, you tell me.

I understand and thank you for expessing your oppinion.

Hopefully, you will see my point of view as well.
Will see you at the Ripkens stadium next Sunday.

Happy Motoring.

 

Maxi ... I hope you realize I was only trying to help you. Nothing more. If you felt I wasn't, I understand completely and am sorry if it upset your thinking in any way. That was not my intention.

Sometimes we all have to realize we all have different ideas, opinions and plans. It really sounds like your having fun with your car and that is all that really matters. Its OK to have different opinions and approaches because in the end ... all that matters is YOUR fun.

I REALLY wish you the best and hope you have continuing success and fun!

Motor ON!

 

Good i'm glad to hear.

As long as it was designed for the existing head, and will work with a different head. That's great!

Yes you should. If you are going faster, means it will take longer to stop. so brake upgrades are a must.


My understanding was you got a cam that was designed for a different head and would not work well with your exising head.

as it should be.

I never said you didn't do your homework.


Always have a few. I have my main one (which is John at LDG) and i have other people that I talk to as well. But I always refer back to John.

It's all in the eye of the beholder.

See you Sunday!

 

hey my first multi quote worked!

 

Yep, it worked perfectly.

By the way, I'm doing my research on the new JCW drilled & slotted brake rotors + JCW brake kit.



My next bling.

 

Cool. Since I already have the brakes, i'm gonna look into getting some stainless steel brake lines.

 

sigh plz read http://iwsti.com/forums/showthread.php?t=67007 and the references within that post before you buy cross-drilled rotors. It might save you a few $$$

I'm gone ....

 

Thank you for the info.

As I've stated, that it might be my next bling. (bling in term of bling bling bling, nothing to do with how better or worse they perform)

Which I also said that I'm doing some research on the product.

Oh, well.

 

Great, that is in my plan as well.

 

Sherwin,

I'll be curious to know how that performs. Let me know. I am thinking of doing that as soon as the warranty is over.

 

i will keep you posted on that.

 

Morristown have the JCW brake kit on sale for $852.
Towson will install the kit for 3.5 hrs labor, since they're there, that will include the installation of the stainless steel brake lines (~$120), if any.

This is really tempting ...

 

Edge, Ciscovip, Feedback and anyone who's interested:

Oh, no. I'm not going to sale mine,

I saw ths in the marketplace, GP intercooler
Better hurry.

 

thanks