You know Matt... I would take yer responce as knoble... if it wasn't striking a nerve with me... (this is NOT an attack on M7)

I remember back in '02 - present... people always talking crap about the TC... even giving it nick names.... like Meltamatic... (I belive it was reserved for one red car, I was new back then so I missed some of the BS)

Now.. the only reason poepl could do such things is cause the people who were first to make HUGE power were pushing the limits.. and things broke... THEY WERE OPEN ABOUT IT... I remember, "MADE 280 WHP" .... we are goign for 300 WHP, I was on the edge of my seat.... "aww we broke the stock pistons" ... DAMN... no biggie... just needs pistons! WOOO!

but since then it has been deemed that the TC is unreliable... etc... TO THIS DAY...

Now... IF the car M7 broke... no biggie... crap happens... I for one am wondering...
Like Randy Webb said a few times... I am curious to see how it comes out cause I think it would be really kewl to have another option for power...

but don't point the "armchair product development" finger...

 

it is. If you look back over this, M7 wasn't on board at the start. They came in later. Even they had to wait for the kit that they started to play with, hence the title of this thread.

And I think there's a difference between asking what's up, and postulating that a car blew up.

I know sometimes I come down harsh on this stuff. But imaging the other side of this? Think if you'd "opened the kimono" early on in the dev to share, but eventually all you get it crap for it. What do you think that does for the enthusiasm, or the desire to share to those that have to keep coming here and spoon feeding answers to BS comments?

I know personally, and from talking to some that have gone through this, that taking the "hits" from the peanut gallery when all that was done was share ideas and information takes it's toll, gets people negative on NAM and on sharing stuff before it's done.

So if one steps back from this and thinks about the trade off, lots get to spout "snappy comebacks" and many stop posting information. I think this is a bad trade.... And overall, we're all worse for it.

Sadly, the pot shots are easy, especially when guys like Bob have a real job to take care of, and the true prioritization for finishing a car mod is really down the list quite a ways on the lifes task list, that this will never stop, and people like Bob who post early will be fewer and farther inbetween.

In the water injection threads, I'm glat that we're not getting ripped for the piecewise progress that's happening there, or people wouldn't post on that iether. IT's a much easier system to install, (don't know about tune to yet).

Just some things to think about.

Matt

 

A jerk would be more accurate.

I could re-iterate what the doc said but I probobly wouldn't say it as well.

Put simply. People don't come into your work when you are developing a new product and criticize you not giving them information. Hell, generally you don't even get the priviledge to know development is going on until the product is released. So put up or shut up.

Furthermore alot of people posting their "OPINIONS" barley do their own work to their car. So what could you possibly add or even be able to deduce that would help this process move along. If you are a spectator... be a spectator, if you aren't then get involved... chances are they wouldn't appreciate the information going public any way at that position.

Most of the people that are talking smack are doing so behind the anoninimity of the internet. I'm getting sick and tired of people on here that do nothing but pay a mechanic to bolt stuff on, or read a chapter in "how engines work" putting their opinions in and demanding info.

You want info... get involved and buy a kit... if you wan't to compare the kits to what is out already... then wait until it is actually released and not just beta tested. The truth of the matter is... if you knew enough to contribute... chances are you would be involved... otherwise you are just some random pessimistic jerk that is hampering progress.

This whole thing is starting to seem like a bad episode of monty python. You folks are just harassing developers right out of the community... good job.

edit: in hindsight i guess i did just re-iterate what the doc said. But I just can't believe the nerve of some people. You are getting more info on the development of this then any other form of induction modification for the r53 thus far, and you are just ripping it to shreds like morons. We will be lucky if we ever get a shred of info from any mini aftermarket developer after this... I quite frankly would discourage any of the producers to even mention a product until it is released. I realize this is a public forum and it's meant for discussion... but trolling like a 13 year old and flaming are not helpfull for anything.

And remember... Opinions are like @$$holes... everyone has one... and no we don't want to see yours.

 

I cannot speak for M7 nor will I attempt to.

I have the M62, from ddmWorks, on my car. I have the dyno plot at home. I will scan and upload here. My car is unique in that I had to replace the stock SC. Instead of doing factory I chose to go to the M62. Did it take a while to get the M62 put on my car? Yes. Was I upset? At times. But then I also knew going in this was a 'beta' situation. Do I want more horse and tq than what I have with the M62? Most definitely.Will I get there? More thank likely. How will I get there? By adding complimentary mods to the M62, not replacing. Possible future mods? More than likely injectors, then head.

Please give the folks that are working on this the space and time they need to develope it properly.

From a drivability standpoint I love what the car is doing now.

 

Thanks for your quality responce... whskysouth :D

I just tried to call Peter... he's in a meeting... :(

 

Matt, apples and oranges. Taking a look at the water injection thread, it is obvious that the kit is already on the market. In many different forms, from many different vendors, at many different price levels. Not at all the same as what is going on with the M62.

Absolutely true. Because I do not announce that something is ready until the work is completed, properly tested and is ready to be deployed.
As on many different occasions, I must ask once again: "WHAT INFORMATION?" M7 have been absent and quite about their progress for 3 weeks.
Do we HAVE to buy a kit to get info? Do you do that with other products? Your HD TV? Did you buy it without researching, or did you shop around first?
But apparently you are willing to offer yours with abandon... (suggest you look up the meaning of hypocrisy)

 

As for a hd-tv's vs. m62... A tv at which I would be able to purchase has specs available. This is not available to purchase for just any one. It may be in bbi's product line but the one you are commenting on, it is not available except in beta testing form... it is technically not a real poduct yet.

And about offering my own opinion. I do so when it is appropriate and when I can add to on ongoing discussion. Not when I have a nice little 5 word jab line that any forum troll could post. Forums might be a new thing to some of you old timers but ive been on them since bulliten boards and 14.4 modems. People with fanboi and troll comments like yours are a dime a dozen... and generally the bane of said forums.

view it as you like. I haven't seen a post with good discussion points out of you and a few other people in a very very long time.

As an aside. If any of this strikes home with you... I don't know what to tell you. Other then you are getting a lesson in proffessionalism by a 25 year old. Would you say this stuff to these guys right to their face?

You might, but chances are they wouldn't listen... so what's the point?

edit: I guess what i am trying to say is... Some people belong in a discussion about this product, as they have research and the ability to add. But honestly, being able to watch the development of this prodcut is a priviledge not a right. So flaming some one and bad mouthing a product when you have nothing invested in it is really really easy... and apparently comes naturally for some.

 

now i really don't want to launch into this topic especially on this thread because it will bring the thread off topic... but i feel this should be addressed.

Sometimes i think the M in M7 stands for marketing. They always jump the gun on there predictions and usually anounce that they are working on some FANTABULOUS new project that outflows the hoover dam etc... and then when it comes time to actual hp numbers... NADA ZERO ZILCH. I personally like what M7 has done and can not deny that they are a successful company. However the fact that they continually make leading statements to stir up a ruckus only to let the rucks die by not providing actual results is getting old...

I am no where near the arm chair developer. I have develeoped plenty of products, but the differnece is I don't put the cart before the horse. I wait unitl i have results...and then provide them. I know there are setbacks in everysingle build. (when we first put a cylinder head on our car we lost 15hp... 30 minutes of tunnint we were up 25 or 30hp... and then the next day (it was a late night) we strapped the car back down and made even more power. Now that we have some ins on ECU tunning the car (not using an afc) we are making even more power... everything is a work in progress...

Especially when you are trying something new and differnt compared to everyone else. I appreciate and give these guys credit for doing that. I understand if you run out of injector on the dyno... it happens... sometimes the injectors don't get to you until a day or two after the dyno... I have been there many times. We understand that...

The fact that M7 or the owner of this car has not commented on there car only increases my suspicion of a motor failure. If it has... no big deal! As TULS said... how many twincharge cars broke parts... its the old adage of if you aren't breaking things you aren't making enough power...

i really wish i could write more, i would like to be more concise and perhaps a little more PC but i am really busy today and i can't devote the time to it at this time. So please, if this comes across harsh, please take this into consideration...

 

Ever strike to you he wasn't just asking?

I am sure Peter would be a wealth of knowledge...

I'm confused.... If we havn't put money down to buy a kit we havn't spent a lot of time in product development? There is a whole world outside the MINI (or should it be mini) community that does new things and engineers parts for cars. For you to say if you havn't put a m62 on a mini you havn't spent time in product development is ridiculous. The M62 on a MINI doesn't require a literal rocket scientist to install just a lot of work from mechanically inclined people focused on a goal.

I don't think the point of these last few pages is that the car blew up and Peter sucks. I'll be the first person to say i am all for pushing the limits and if it cost you a motor chalk it up as a learning lesson. I know it isn't easy. Somebody has to be the test mule. But when you spend the last couple years razzing people up over there failures compared to you success, you are bound to catch some back when you fail at actually tring something a little more technical than installing a part. The whole project isn't a failure it is a learning lesson/curve. After this mule has been threw its paces i am sure the kit will bolt on and work, just like the TC has proven. But untill then "the inovaters" will be catching the same crap Hubie & Jan (am i allowed to say that name on here?) did!

Here is a new mod for a lot of you....

 

I fully understand (and I'm sure most others do) that development takes a while. Great, have at it, enjoy, and good luck. Thats what this is all about. Tweaking cars we love.

I take issue with a few points though in this thread. First, the promise of information and then days or weeks go by and nothing. I have no problem with cards being held close to the chest, but don't promise information such as dynos or numbers and then disappear. We don't need the gory details, but a general 'we're still hard at work folks, stay tuned' would help. Second, I don't have 6 grand to throw down on an experimental kit, but I do support the vendors when I can. I have products from M7, DDM, helix and others. I'm excited about thier new developements, will buy what I like when I can afford it and don't appreciate being teased about information. Why does requesting information run them out of the business? Excitement is good. This is free advertising for the vendors. Third, why does posting on the internet imply I have too much time or no job? I'm entitled to this hobby as much as anyone else. Wow. Fourth, (and others, please chime in here with me) I do as much work on my car as I can, given the tools I can afford and my skill set. Does not doing every mod myself somehow make my interest irrelevant?

There were a lot of assumptions in that attack-post above, and a lot of personal mud slung. We're here to talk about MINI's and what some can achieve with them , not to make assumptions and bash others. Come on folks.

 

FWIW, a promise to try to do something is just that. A commitment to try. Sometimes it doesn't work out that way. No one signed a contract. Have any of you that are so stuck on missed intended commitments ever said something like "That was my original plan. But then X Y and Z...." I think that's a universal yes.

I never said that if you don't have an M62, you haven't done product development. What I did say was that if you had done product development, you would probably understand better than others how product developement works, and why sometimes things take longer than planned. If it were as easy as just bolting hardware on and all you needed was "mechanically inclined people" to do it it would have been to the market long ago. I think there's a bit more than just physical placement.

Now, I totally understand the cycle of product development. I've been doing it my entire professional life. So, what do you all want? Total silence until release? Or do you want to know what's coming ahead of time, with no guarantees that whats started will ever be finished (remember Randy's comments about doing a twin-screw and never releasing it?)

Really, this all goes back to the poster about learning to share in kindergarten. But the annonymous nature of the internet makes it easy to forget manners.

So, what do I suggest?

1) Don't postulate what you don't know. It just makes a mess (I think the car blew up because it's been three weeks...) Ask what you don't know, and don't be pissed if you don't get an answer. Sure it's possible the car blew up. There's a lot different from saying "I know the car blew up", "I heard the car blew up" and "I think the car blew up". One is a statement of fact, one is heresy, and one is a postulate. If Isellum knows, he sure didn't post it that way.

2) Try to be kind, and polite in posts, and not be aggressive or antogonistic. ( I know I occationally fail here, mostly with too much sarcasm.... No one is perfect)

3) Be reasonable. It seems that many that share are heald up to a standard of perfection, and then they get ragged for not meeting the unatainable straw man. A "promise" on a web site is really just an expression of intent. Sure, if a friend "promised to call in the evening" and didn't you might be mad, or not. But most of my group waits to find out if something else came up, fully understanding that prioritization is very fluid. Instead of reading promise, why don't you all read "I'll do my best to do this but it might not happen." Yeah, it sure would be easier if people said "I'll try" instead of "I promise" but really, they mean the same thing (at least here).

4) Imagine yourself on the other side of the table. Let's say you had tried an ambitious dev project and it didn't make the timeline you'd intended. How would you like to be asked about it, or have it discussed in public.

In fact, adoption of point 4 is a skill that allows many to succeed where other fail, and has made my life as a professional businessman/ apps specialist/ and product guru (very different market) much easier. It minimized friction, especially the unneeded kind.

Now the comment about posting here implyinig that you don't have work was an example of BAD LOGIC! Just like saying "I haven't heard anything so the car must have blown up!" Geeze, READ THE POSTS! Or didn't you notice the sentance "I'll admit my logic is flawed." Guess you didn't see that.

As far as posting information, I won't speak for M7 or Peter. But Dave and Bob have been giving out information as they go (we all tend to forget this) even if it's not what the detail you want to hear, it's there!

I remember what Bob found about his header fitment when he started getting this done, debates about pulley sizes, discussions of headers getting tested for this, unichip tuners coming in and out and the like. So I'd say that there is a degree of openness (otherwise this thread wouldn't happen at all), even if other projects had more, some have certainly had less.

Chaincooper, I never said requesting information is bad. If you really want it, go to the source! Don't throuw a request into the eather and expect a reply! It's nice when it happens, but a phone call is really the best way to get the answers you're looking for (like Tuls tried. timing wasn't there but that's the way to go.) What I did say was throwing negative assumptions and dumping without knowledge is bad.

And not doing every mod yourself doesn't make you irrelevant. I don't do every mod myself. very few do. What I mean (and I thought I wrote) is that if you're just a fence sitter who hasn't bought the part, (read no investment in it) then why do you think that you can DEMAND anything? I'll say it differently, if you're not happy with the progress of someone elses project, either do it yourself or wait for them to finish. How complicated is that?

And isellum, I agree completely on information release priorities. If you manage the information properly, you don't end up in one of these "discussions". Expectation are better managed etc. But like I mentioned above, the price for that is that many won't get to see the progress as it occurs.

I guess it's possible that human nature and early information release just aren't comaptible! It's just my hope that we have the cognitave ability to understand these issues and not be aggressively negative. I'm sure I fail at times as well, so maybe my hope is misplaced.

But dispite all this, no one has stepped up to say why it's OK to be a jerk in posts when details are late, or why someone who has no investment in time or money in the actual progress should feel it's OK to be demanding or critical.

Matt

 

Yep. But you did say that I should plunk down my hard earned money from the job that I supposedly don't have on a product that does not have those specs. And as you say, thus far, not a real product.

I'll bite. What is it that you think you have contributed so far besides trying to start a flame war with me? A definite case of a pot calling the kettle black...

I see you don't have the same problem with the M7 folks. We could say that we have not seen a post with good discussion points out of them in a very long time as well. Which is, I believe, the whole point of this discussion. I, and I am sure others, would love to contribute some discussion points. There is a wealth of knowledge here from people who have been moding and tuning these cars since the beginning. But, there is not much to go on from the M7 beside a three week old post promising numbers the next day. Once again, no one forced them to come out. They crowed all of their own.
Not sure what lesson you think you are offering, but yes. I would say it to their face. Any time, any where.

 

GoalJnky... the reason for my contribution to this thread... Is that I am an owner of a potentially dieing car. A car which has since been replaced with a new model... be it for better or worse.

I am not so belligerantly ignorant to smash down and redicule a product which I am not interested in or is not going as expected. I am in no way interested in this product, nor do i have a single part from the vendors producing the product on my car... yet... I would never discourage someone from developing a part and furthering the market which i embrace as my hobby, when a major turning point is ahead, ALA r56 aftermarket.

What I am simply saying is... by not being involved in development or in purchases of this product you have no invested interest. Niether do i for that matter. It's akin to complaining about the current president when you didn't vote.

As a journalism student who has studied objectivity and a forum moderator on many pc modding forums I rarley post on forums. That is unless I have a compelling reason or my emotions about the topic (and not my own personally bad day) force my fingers to type out a responce. In this case it's the latter of the situation. I do however, feel that people need to step back and take a look at what they do and make comparisons.

Sure m7 isn't as prompt with information as their online "promise" said they would. But that doesn't mean it's time for people to scream bloody murder and just start making wild assumptions.

Sure there is a chance m7 blew the car up. And to be honest... wouldn't you rather they blow a few things up testing so that they know where limits are?

Regardless, to many of us... it isn't our show, we are spectators. All that my post was intended to do was remind some people... that they are not paying for information so they can not say they were deserved information or that they were cheated when they don't get it.

This wasn't meant to be me airing out my dirty laundry and honestly... I should have kept my mouth shut about my thoughts on your posting etiquete, and for that I am sorry.

It still doesn't change the fact that a good amount of hte posts in this thread or on this forum for that matter do nothing for the community, the car and the people that make our aftermarket parts.

That being said... were those post necessary?

I will return to not posting on this forum as i have the past few months. Maybe someday the maturity level will rise to an acceptable amount for my fingers, they should be writing code any way... until then... good day.

 

 

I appreciate your candor. I do have parts from this vendor. Some are gone, some are still on my cars. I am in no way discouraging anyone from developing anything. Innovation is great.

I disagree with you that not being involved in the development of this product automatically removes me from having any interest in it. As a Mini enthusiast I am always in the market for products that will improve my car. Whether it be performance, or appearance. So I am a potential customer. But I am not in a habit of buying the latest and greatest without having it pass the "smell and taste" test. The only way to do that is by requesting information. Unfortunately, there has been very little information forthcoming.

I never meant to imply that I am owed any information. But being a man of my word I, perhaps naively, expect the same from others. It would not have done any damage to M7 to come out and simply state that they are having development problems and more info would come out when available. They didn't choose to do that. To draw a parallel, feel free to look up all the flack Microsoft (my favorite corporate clowns) received over constant delays of their Vista software. Nobody was telling the reporters that they had no vested interest in the new OS and as such had no right to complaint about it.

As far as a lot of posts being fluff, that is certainly true. I have been around since the day of the 9.6 modems and there always have been trolls. Sometimes even people who are normally above the flame wars loose their focus and get involved. That is the nature of internet. People do get passionate about their opinions.

I am sorry you feel you should not post anymore. It is always nice to get different points of view.

 

Chris:

As I've stated before, one of the things that struck me most about the TC development process was how open those involved were - and in repsonse you all were the bastard step-children of NAM for awhile. Regardless, numbers were posted, the development process was transparent and the product has indeed proven itself. I feel that decision to be open was the right one. If I were ever to go the TC route, I have a pretty damn good idea about the effort and care that went into the product, the power it produces, the tune required, the ancilliary upgrades, etc.

Trivia question - who coined the term "Meltomatic"? Who kept us up to date with a running commentary about which part was broken on Jan's
car? A free beer to the person who PMs me the correct answer.


The rest:

DDM has installed the kit a few cars - we have been kept apprised of these developments from the beta testers. Dave has been relatively silent - and this is fine - and has been tuning the product. There have been no promises from DDM, no timelines set, etc. The only requests for more information have been directed at Bob who has been open about his M62 experience.

So has anyone asked themselves why DDM is getting a what appears to be a "pass" on this? Matt - maybe it's because alot of people on this forum actually are respecting the fact that he's decided to keep his development to himself. Face it, if it wasn't for Bob, most of us would probably not even know what he was up to until he was ready to release the kit.

M7 has taken another route - they tantalized potential buyers of the kit with an initial and a promise of impending numbers. They then let everyone know that some fueling issues were encountered. Then they went silent. Is everyone who got hooked by that thread supposed to not wonder what happened? Since when is it impolite to postulate what happened? Half the peanut gallery and a good portion of the Vendors did that to Hubie and Jan - when did the rules change?

They changed when the shoe was on the other foot

 

Sheesh.

 

We haven't had a good flaming for quite sometime , long over due .

Thank you ladies

 

 

Whenever I'm looking for some voyeuristic entertainment, I just click on whatever I see on the Pulse with M7 in the title. I really hit the mother lode this time. There's even a classic "see you later, maybe, if you guys grow up, but for now I'm outta here, in case anybody cares..." post.

 

I'd call it more of a "detonation" than a flaming..

Regardless, we aim to please..

 

No wonder Bob's thinking about selling his car...

 

....I'm almost afraid to try this, but here goes....
I have a few questions about the 62 (the topic of this thread, for those who have fogotten )

1: How noticeable is the new supercharger from above? It seems like the intercooler would cover it nicely.

2: How many parts have to be modified to fit this new unit? (I don't need details, as I presume that they are currently classified)

3: For those who have experienced the 62, how freakin' awesome is it?
(scale of 1-10, 10=wicked awesome , 1= )

If you can't answer, leave it at that.
Silence, like patience is a virtue...

 

C'mon boys...Let's all join hands...

Kumbaya, my Lord, kumbaya!
Kumbaya, my Lord, kumbaya!
Kumbaya, my Lord, kumbaya!
O Lord, kumbaya!

 

It'll probably be mostly unnoticeable. I'm not one of the guys "in the know" on this kit but at the very least, the water pump will have to be replaced with an electric unit as the M62 does not drive it off the back end like the M45 does. It's hard to say how awesome it is until it's on a car and tuned properly. The numbers on the M62 look promising but you have to compare the kit to something in the same price bracket like a twincharge kit. Will it provide that much power, probably not. Will the extra torque make up for the difference, maybe. There's still a lot of unanswered questions about this kit. Maybe M7's finding out that it's not going to be as simple as planned.