Drivetrain 62 kit on its way to M7 ... Yes it is happening
#201
02-13-2007, 05:52 PM
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....I'm almost afraid to try this, but here goes....
I have a few questions about the 62 (the topic of this thread, for those who have fogotten
)
1: How noticeable is the new supercharger from above? It seems like the intercooler would cover it nicely.
2: How many parts have to be modified to fit this new unit? (I don't need details, as I presume that they are currently classified)
3: For those who have experienced the 62, how freakin' awesome is it?
(scale of 1-10, 10=wicked awesome
, 1= 
)
If you can't answer, leave it at that.
Silence, like patience is a virtue...
I have a few questions about the 62 (the topic of this thread, for those who have fogotten
)1: How noticeable is the new supercharger from above? It seems like the intercooler would cover it nicely.
2: How many parts have to be modified to fit this new unit? (I don't need details, as I presume that they are currently classified)
3: For those who have experienced the 62, how freakin' awesome is it?
(scale of 1-10, 10=wicked awesome
, 1= )If you can't answer, leave it at that.
Silence, like patience is a virtue...
2) no idea about the parts count
3) everytime I drive it it surprises me how much the tq makes driving the car an awesome experience..... If I raise the rev limiter I can post more HP as the car is wicked at the stock redline.....
the good news is that there are 4 cars now and soon to be more..... numbers and different combos should be coming more often... no promises,
#202
02-13-2007, 06:58 PM
#203
02-13-2007, 08:02 PM
#204
02-13-2007, 09:15 PM
FWIW, a promise to try to do something is just that. A commitment to try. Sometimes it doesn't work out that way. No one signed a contract. Have any of you that are so stuck on missed intended commitments ever said something like "That was my original plan. But then X Y and Z...." I think that's a universal yes.
I never said that if you don't have an M62, you haven't done product development. What I did say was that if you had done product development, you would probably understand better than others how product developement works, and why sometimes things take longer than planned. If it were as easy as just bolting hardware on and all you needed was "mechanically inclined people" to do it it would have been to the market long ago. I think there's a bit more than just physical placement.
Now, I totally understand the cycle of product development. I've been doing it my entire professional life. So, what do you all want? Total silence until release? Or do you want to know what's coming ahead of time, with no guarantees that whats started will ever be finished (remember Randy's comments about doing a twin-screw and never releasing it?)
Really, this all goes back to the poster about learning to share in kindergarten. But the annonymous nature of the internet makes it easy to forget manners.
So, what do I suggest?
1) Don't postulate what you don't know. It just makes a mess (I think the car blew up because it's been three weeks...) Ask what you don't know, and don't be pissed if you don't get an answer. Sure it's possible the car blew up. There's a lot different from saying "I know the car blew up", "I heard the car blew up" and "I think the car blew up". One is a statement of fact, one is heresy, and one is a postulate. If Isellum knows, he sure didn't post it that way.
2) Try to be kind, and polite in posts, and not be aggressive or antogonistic. ( I know I occationally fail here, mostly with too much sarcasm.... No one is perfect)
3) Be reasonable. It seems that many that share are heald up to a standard of perfection, and then they get ragged for not meeting the unatainable straw man. A "promise" on a web site is really just an expression of intent. Sure, if a friend "promised to call in the evening" and didn't you might be mad, or not. But most of my group waits to find out if something else came up, fully understanding that prioritization is very fluid. Instead of reading promise, why don't you all read "I'll do my best to do this but it might not happen." Yeah, it sure would be easier if people said "I'll try" instead of "I promise" but really, they mean the same thing (at least here).
4) Imagine yourself on the other side of the table. Let's say you had tried an ambitious dev project and it didn't make the timeline you'd intended. How would you like to be asked about it, or have it discussed in public.
In fact, adoption of point 4 is a skill that allows many to succeed where other fail, and has made my life as a professional businessman/ apps specialist/ and product guru (very different market) much easier. It minimized friction, especially the unneeded kind.
Now the comment about posting here implyinig that you don't have work was an example of BAD LOGIC! Just like saying "I haven't heard anything so the car must have blown up!" Geeze, READ THE POSTS! Or didn't you notice the sentance "I'll admit my logic is flawed." Guess you didn't see that.
As far as posting information, I won't speak for M7 or Peter. But Dave and Bob have been giving out information as they go (we all tend to forget this) even if it's not what the detail you want to hear, it's there!
I remember what Bob found about his header fitment when he started getting this done, debates about pulley sizes, discussions of headers getting tested for this, unichip tuners coming in and out and the like. So I'd say that there is a degree of openness (otherwise this thread wouldn't happen at all), even if other projects had more, some have certainly had less.
Chaincooper, I never said requesting information is bad. If you really want it, go to the source! Don't throuw a request into the eather and expect a reply! It's nice when it happens, but a phone call is really the best way to get the answers you're looking for (like Tuls tried. timing wasn't there but that's the way to go.) What I did say was throwing negative assumptions and dumping without knowledge is bad.
And not doing every mod yourself doesn't make you irrelevant. I don't do every mod myself. very few do. What I mean (and I thought I wrote) is that if you're just a fence sitter who hasn't bought the part, (read no investment in it) then why do you think that you can DEMAND anything? I'll say it differently, if you're not happy with the progress of someone elses project, either do it yourself or wait for them to finish. How complicated is that?
And isellum, I agree completely on information release priorities. If you manage the information properly, you don't end up in one of these "discussions". Expectation are better managed etc. But like I mentioned above, the price for that is that many won't get to see the progress as it occurs.
I guess it's possible that human nature and early information release just aren't comaptible! It's just my hope that we have the cognitave ability to understand these issues and not be aggressively negative. I'm sure I fail at times as well, so maybe my hope is misplaced.
But dispite all this, no one has stepped up to say why it's OK to be a jerk in posts when details are late, or why someone who has no investment in time or money in the actual progress should feel it's OK to be demanding or critical.
Matt
I never said that if you don't have an M62, you haven't done product development. What I did say was that if you had done product development, you would probably understand better than others how product developement works, and why sometimes things take longer than planned. If it were as easy as just bolting hardware on and all you needed was "mechanically inclined people" to do it it would have been to the market long ago. I think there's a bit more than just physical placement.
Now, I totally understand the cycle of product development. I've been doing it my entire professional life. So, what do you all want? Total silence until release? Or do you want to know what's coming ahead of time, with no guarantees that whats started will ever be finished (remember Randy's comments about doing a twin-screw and never releasing it?)
Really, this all goes back to the poster about learning to share in kindergarten. But the annonymous nature of the internet makes it easy to forget manners.
So, what do I suggest?
1) Don't postulate what you don't know. It just makes a mess (I think the car blew up because it's been three weeks...) Ask what you don't know, and don't be pissed if you don't get an answer. Sure it's possible the car blew up. There's a lot different from saying "I know the car blew up", "I heard the car blew up" and "I think the car blew up". One is a statement of fact, one is heresy, and one is a postulate. If Isellum knows, he sure didn't post it that way.
2) Try to be kind, and polite in posts, and not be aggressive or antogonistic. ( I know I occationally fail here, mostly with too much sarcasm.... No one is perfect)
3) Be reasonable. It seems that many that share are heald up to a standard of perfection, and then they get ragged for not meeting the unatainable straw man. A "promise" on a web site is really just an expression of intent. Sure, if a friend "promised to call in the evening" and didn't you might be mad, or not. But most of my group waits to find out if something else came up, fully understanding that prioritization is very fluid. Instead of reading promise, why don't you all read "I'll do my best to do this but it might not happen." Yeah, it sure would be easier if people said "I'll try" instead of "I promise" but really, they mean the same thing (at least here).
4) Imagine yourself on the other side of the table. Let's say you had tried an ambitious dev project and it didn't make the timeline you'd intended. How would you like to be asked about it, or have it discussed in public.
In fact, adoption of point 4 is a skill that allows many to succeed where other fail, and has made my life as a professional businessman/ apps specialist/ and product guru (very different market) much easier. It minimized friction, especially the unneeded kind.
Now the comment about posting here implyinig that you don't have work was an example of BAD LOGIC! Just like saying "I haven't heard anything so the car must have blown up!" Geeze, READ THE POSTS! Or didn't you notice the sentance "I'll admit my logic is flawed." Guess you didn't see that.
As far as posting information, I won't speak for M7 or Peter. But Dave and Bob have been giving out information as they go (we all tend to forget this) even if it's not what the detail you want to hear, it's there!
I remember what Bob found about his header fitment when he started getting this done, debates about pulley sizes, discussions of headers getting tested for this, unichip tuners coming in and out and the like. So I'd say that there is a degree of openness (otherwise this thread wouldn't happen at all), even if other projects had more, some have certainly had less.
Chaincooper, I never said requesting information is bad. If you really want it, go to the source! Don't throuw a request into the eather and expect a reply! It's nice when it happens, but a phone call is really the best way to get the answers you're looking for (like Tuls tried. timing wasn't there but that's the way to go.) What I did say was throwing negative assumptions and dumping without knowledge is bad.
And not doing every mod yourself doesn't make you irrelevant. I don't do every mod myself. very few do. What I mean (and I thought I wrote) is that if you're just a fence sitter who hasn't bought the part, (read no investment in it) then why do you think that you can DEMAND anything? I'll say it differently, if you're not happy with the progress of someone elses project, either do it yourself or wait for them to finish. How complicated is that?
And isellum, I agree completely on information release priorities. If you manage the information properly, you don't end up in one of these "discussions". Expectation are better managed etc. But like I mentioned above, the price for that is that many won't get to see the progress as it occurs.
I guess it's possible that human nature and early information release just aren't comaptible! It's just my hope that we have the cognitave ability to understand these issues and not be aggressively negative. I'm sure I fail at times as well, so maybe my hope is misplaced.
But dispite all this, no one has stepped up to say why it's OK to be a jerk in posts when details are late, or why someone who has no investment in time or money in the actual progress should feel it's OK to be demanding or critical.
Matt
As far as the product cycle and keeping people in the know etc... This has been mismanaged by M7 multiple times. They never seem to learn there lesson. They have not been the most forthcoming with results either. They play up all this hype and almost never back it up with some solid, hardcore hp numbers. Ya ya ya... the dynos lie, they can be fooled... BS post the delta... the MINI community is one of the few communities who debate dyno testing to death... i urge you guys to venture out... go to supraforums.com go to viperalley.com (don't post on there or you will get ripped to shreds, no kiddie gloves there) go to LS2gto.com, the f-body boards, clubsi.com honda-tech.com hell even ferrarichat or maseratilife! Dyno numbers are an accepted measurement of hp and tq in the performance automobile industry.
As far as randy and his twin screw... I am by no means a fan of Randy... but lets not throw stones otherwise we can break out a MUCH longer list for the M7 camp.
In response to the following:
1. My postulation must be correct... because no one has corrected me... i am pretty sure if they hadn't lost the motor... someone would have jumped online and said... no isellem... we haven't lost the motor... the car just needs yada yada yada... or we are trying to tune the car more precisely, or the car needs a bigger fuel pump etc... I said in plain English... its a hunch... and the more pages this thread grows to... the stronger this hunch gets. So, if I am wrong, I apologize. But no one has jumped on line and said that the motor hasn't blown... and actually the way that you constructed this paragraph make me think that you do know that the motor is blown... correct me if I am wrong
2. sure thing... i try to keep it PC... but its hard when there is so much BS flying around
3. You got it right at the end... DON"T say the word promise. Say try! Don't mislead people. Ever heard of the business adage of UNDER promise and OVER deliver. Not the other way around. Sometimes I feel some of these MINI tunners have it backwards. Over promise and under/never deliver.
4. I undertand your point... but when you say that we will be going to the dyno tomorrow... and then don't post... and then when you do... you "run out of injector" and then no word there after... please refer to my response to number three... don't over promise and under deliver. YOu can keep people informed, just don't mishandle the situation time and time again. Also, if I ever find myself on the otherside of the table... i put myself there... i deserve it. Businesses need to learn how to manage expectations and deliver upon them.
Im sorry if this is off topic or rude or whatever... but this whole thing does strike a nerve...
#205
02-13-2007, 10:55 PM
I honestly don't know the progress on the project...
and I have no clue about the state of the car. Even if I were to grant your historical description of M7s past, remember, they didn't start this project, they didn't bring it into the light of day either. I guess it's possible that the M7 brings the flames in.
In all honesty, I totally agree with underpromise and overdeliver. But I also really, really hope that everyone wouldn't dump so much or get so pissed when someone decides to "open the kimono" and things don't go the way (or the timing) that the peanut gallery would like.
But I guess it's just this inevitable behaviour (among many other forces) that convince most that it's not worth it to share early work. Overall, I think we're worse off for it.
Life goes on......
Matt
In all honesty, I totally agree with underpromise and overdeliver. But I also really, really hope that everyone wouldn't dump so much or get so pissed when someone decides to "open the kimono" and things don't go the way (or the timing) that the peanut gallery would like.
But I guess it's just this inevitable behaviour (among many other forces) that convince most that it's not worth it to share early work. Overall, I think we're worse off for it.
Life goes on......
Matt
#206
02-13-2007, 11:33 PM
In all honesty, I totally agree with underpromise and overdeliver. But I also really, really hope that everyone wouldn't dump so much or get so pissed when someone decides to "open the kimono" and things don't go the way (or the timing) that the peanut gallery would like.
But I guess it's just this inevitable behaviour (among many other forces) that convince most that it's not worth it to share early work. Overall, I think we're worse off for it.
Last most of us heard was that the kit was on and the car was blowing the owner away - then fueling issues - then silence.
What's the harm in giving an update? Making these announcements is a deliberate marketing plan to attract attention to a product. M7 has just about everyone's attention on this - they built the hype - so what is the status? Nobody is asking anything that was not promised by the Vendor - so please let's stop making the target audience out to be some sort of mob.
Again, in the DDM case, Bob has been giving the updates and discussing numbers, not DDM. The "peanut gallery" is reasonable - they do not seem to be demanding anything of DDM.
So the real issue is what you stated, Matt - underpromise and overdeliver versus overpromise and underdeliver. DDM is doing the former and has been generally respected for it and left alone. M7 is doing the latter and is coming under some heat.
Instead of making this out to be some sort of mob attack on M7, I think people should look at the way the development of one product was handled by two vendors and how that in turn was handled by the Forum.
Looks like underpromise/overdeliver is definately the way to go.
#207
02-14-2007, 09:18 AM
#208
02-14-2007, 09:30 AM
and I have no clue about the state of the car. Even if I were to grant your historical description of M7s past, remember, they didn't start this project, they didn't bring it into the light of day either. I guess it's possible that the M7 brings the flames in.
In all honesty, I totally agree with underpromise and overdeliver. But I also really, really hope that everyone wouldn't dump so much or get so pissed when someone decides to "open the kimono" and things don't go the way (or the timing) that the peanut gallery would like.
But I guess it's just this inevitable behaviour (among many other forces) that convince most that it's not worth it to share early work. Overall, I think we're worse off for it.
Life goes on......
Matt
In all honesty, I totally agree with underpromise and overdeliver. But I also really, really hope that everyone wouldn't dump so much or get so pissed when someone decides to "open the kimono" and things don't go the way (or the timing) that the peanut gallery would like.
But I guess it's just this inevitable behaviour (among many other forces) that convince most that it's not worth it to share early work. Overall, I think we're worse off for it.
Life goes on......
Matt
#209
02-14-2007, 04:05 PM
Just to clarify a quick point (that Matt brought up) - the twin screw can and does run properly, it is just way too costly to justify building here in the states. If you are really interested, I can point you in the direction of those who still do it - they are in Austria, and they only speak German. It is RMS (not Osch in California). The intercooler unit is in the picture I have on my site of the Helix TurboKompressor kit.
Hope that helps!
Randy
Hope that helps!
Randy
#210
02-15-2007, 09:54 AM
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It sounds like DDM or M7 should consider offering the M62 with a goodies pack. I mean whatever they feel is a match for it to get the max benefit. Meaning bundle it with a matched head, computer flash, headers, etc. Yes it would be $$ but you would know what to expect as far as performance for the $. Just a thought...
#211
02-15-2007, 10:40 AM
no you're not.
#213
02-15-2007, 01:23 PM
Sorry about the delay but we wanted to have all of our ducks in a row on this one . In testing the M62 we discovered a entirely new issue . We have joined the ranks of a few cars that have discovered that high RPM and light weight crank pulleys do not play well together . I have a red line of 7200 and have not had a issue and I have many miles on this as it was our first unit built. Based on this recent development we are cautioning anyone with raised rev limits to be cautious when thinking about lightweight crank pulleys.The car in question has a custom software pkg which allows for a red line of 8250 RPM and the car has hit that many times in the months prior to the m62 install. Well to be specific the oil pump gear decided it had enough and let go thankfully at idle but some pieces bounced around in the oil pan, got into the crank and took out a piston which put a hurt on some of the internals. The motor is being rebuilt as we speak and we hope to have more info as soon as possible. Again sorry for the delay but we wanted to do a through post mortem and make absolutely sure it was not M62 related.
Randy
M7 Tuning
Randy
M7 Tuning
#215
02-15-2007, 01:40 PM
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#217
02-15-2007, 02:47 PM
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Sorry about the delay but we wanted to have all of our ducks in a row on this one . In testing the M62 we discovered a entirely new issue . We have joined the ranks of a few cars that have discovered that high RPM and light weight crank pulleys do not play well together . I have a red line of 7200 and have not had a issue and I have many miles on this as it was our first unit built. Based on this recent development we are cautioning anyone with raised rev limits to be cautious when thinking about lightweight crank pulleys.The car in question has a custom software pkg which allows for a red line of 8250 RPM and the car has hit that many times in the months prior to the m62 install. Well to be specific the oil pump gear decided it had enough and let go thankfully at idle but some pieces bounced around in the oil pan, got into the crank and took out a piston which put a hurt on some of the internals. The motor is being rebuilt as we speak and we hope to have more info as soon as possible. Again sorry for the delay but we wanted to do a through post mortem and make absolutely sure it was not M62 related.
Randy
M7 Tuning
Randy
M7 Tuning
WOW! so it did blow... who would have guessed...
ALso, advocates of the crank pulley may actually change there tune on undampened crank pulleys.
Some of us have been saying it for years... now that M7 has experianced it, it will now be GOSPEL. Thank God. No more threads about that...
Its a new day in the MINI world... some peoples hunches in which turn up a shitstorm were proven correct. And now the crank pulley... wow... great day on NAM
#219
02-15-2007, 03:28 PM
#220
02-15-2007, 03:35 PM
Randy
M7 tuning
#221
02-15-2007, 06:02 PM
whats interesting too though is that the oil pump let go at idle... not at 8k rpms... i read along time ago and i don't remember 100% for sure but someone was saying that MINI put the dampner on the vehcile for vibration issues below a thousand rpm... or was it just about a thousand rpm. I honestly cant remember. Maybe one of you guys on here can shed some light on that
#222
02-15-2007, 06:36 PM
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Piston or Pistons? Did they melt?
#224
02-15-2007, 06:56 PM
#225
02-15-2007, 07:05 PM
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It sounds to me like he's just trying to provoke a fight rather than add anything meaningful to the discussion. Thanks again for the info Randy. I look forward to updates on the progress.