Need a smart electrical-type guru. I broke something and REALLY want to get it right before I leave for MTTS on Friday.

I successfully installed my Alta/IPF driving lights but hate the switches, so I bought a couple of these, and mounted them in the outside mirror adjustment panel. Ran the wires under the console, then I took the plunge and cut off the switch to one of the pairs of lights. connected them to the new switch and...nothing. My neighbor is the ultimate car guy and he came over and ran a few tests and said I blew the fuse in the switch line. OK, so I went and bought more fuses. Reconnected everything, installed the fuse and...nothing . I think I may have blown the new fuse as well but it's a 2A fuse and the filament is so thin it's hard to tell for sure (no tester).

I'll add that at least one other NAM member has done this...kind of. The post I saw uses a toggle with no light so the black wire in the IPF switch bundle was not used (no ground blade on the switch). Mine should still work however...

Here's my question. The IPF lights run through a relay, so I would assume the stock switch is a low amp switch. The Radio Shack switches I bought are rated at 20A...is it possible that I'm drawing too much current and that's why the fuse is blowing? Or am I completely off base?

Any other ideas? I'm about to go postal. I know just enough about this stuff to be dangerous, and this job has proven it!

 

Well, if you used the default wiring setup then the only current that should be passing through the switch is the very low amperage TRIGGER voltage. The way a relay works is that it's mechanically closed until a small amount of trigger current passes through it - this in turn closes the relay and allows the much greater MAIN voltage to pass through the relay and hence to your accessory. that way, the only current passing through the delicate switch (which your FINGER IS TOUCHING) is very low amperage - only a few milliamps on average.

Seeing as how the old switch (I assume) was working before you deleted it from the circuit, I'd reinstall that unit and see if they still work. It is weird that you're blowing fuses now though - as I said, unless the wiring of the driving lamps is wonky, then the only current actually passing through the switch should be trigger voltage. I'm assuming that the fuse protects not only the main, accessory voltage but ALSO protects the trigger, and if it's popping then you might be connecting the switch up wrong - I'd be 110% sure that you're actually hooking up the correct GROUND contact. If you accidentally cross-wire a hot lead to the ground contact then the instant you connect everything the fuse will pop. Don't hesitate to ask them at the Shack to verify the right ground. You can also try a non-lit switch and see if they work OK -if so, then you know at least the main accessory current is good. That way, you can not connect the light for the time being, until you get it worked out.

QUESTION: You're only hooking up the ground for the LIGHT on the switch, right? The accessory itself will have a separate ground. This is how you have it connected, right?

FYI - it's also possible (although unlikely) that you somehow pulled out a connection somewhere between the battery and the switch while pulling out the old unit. To check the continuity of the circuit, use a volt meter to test both the main and the light current - if they both are OK, then you'll read 12V on both lines. I actually have a "test ground" connection on a barrier strip in my knee bolster for just this kind of continuity testing - makes testing a circuit simplicity.

PS - Can you find the wiring diagram oline for the lamps you installed? Most manufacturers have it online. I want to be sure your stock circuit is what I expect, so I don't give you accidental bad advice. I ASSUME it's the same for ytour lamps as my Hellas, but you know the old saying about what happens when you "assume" right?

 

Thanks Matt for attacking this one...unfortunately you hit all the points I already trouble shot (I realize diagnosing a problem like this via the 'net is like getting a Doctor to diagnose you over the phone)

1) I can't reattach the original switch because I had to cut the wire to it...as a fully assembled and integrated harness the switch wasn't intended to be end-user installed. That said, the IPF-stock switch has a mini-PC board in it with a micro switch rather than the standard contact-switch.

2) The harness came with separate fuses, one for the big blast through the relay to the lights and one for the switch...the latter was a 2A glass fuse I blew...twice.

3) Asking folks at any of the local Radio Shacks for technical advice is like asking my wife...their clue bag is empty.

4) I've been looking for such a schematic since I bought the lights and no go. The harness was complete...zip tying, grounding, and connectors was all that was required. Actually it is a fabulous product, well worth the cost IMHO...if you like the switches

5) the IPF switch has red, white, and black wires. A previous NAM-posted install showed red and white only (I think we measured the white as the trigger and the red as the accessory "out" but I don't recall now); the black was not required (without an LED on his switch, no ground was required). With the IPF harness, the ground (to support the lights in the button) went back into the engine compartment and (I think) to the single point ground the harness required. In my case I'd like to use the LED in the switch; it shouldn't be that hard !

I suspect that one of two things happened. Either my weak attempts at crimps may have allowed some shorting to occur, or because I used the same color wire for all three connections I may have crossed something I shouldn't have (but I don't think so, I was pretty careful, even if I am too cheap to buy more wire! )

 

Pretty obvious question, but is the switch that came with the IPF's a momentary switch? If it is then trying to use the one you showed would probably cause a problem...

That said even if you were careful using the same color wire all around is a good way to cross something, just ask me how I know.

 

Hard to tell really because it's not a standard contact switch but rather a PC board. That said, it probably is not and the end result is press once and lights go on via a relay and press again and they go off.

However, as I discussed above, another NAM member did the exact same thing and it worked (except he had no LED in the switch so the black ground wire was not required.

 

and if you cut a wire, just strip it and then re-attach! If you did something to one of the circuit boards, you can fix that as well. I'm a little confused as to exactly what you did, but going back to what worked is the first best way to fix this.

Barring this, you gotta trace the route the blows, and find out where the load is and what it's demand is. This takes a test light at a minimum, but a voltmeter is a better way to go.

Without the right tools, you're trying to go upriver without a paddle...

Matt

 

You've replaced a circuit board with a simple SPST toggle switch. Did you determine exactly what the original switch does electrically when it is switched on and off? You need to know how the switch is supposed to behave (electrically), then you'll know what replacement switch will work and how to wire it.

A closeup photo of the original switch might help.

 

They may be able to help. Or IPF?

For next time...

1) Follow RKWs advice and confirm operation before modification.

2) Make any modification REVERSABLE.

3) Bench wire everything to see if it works the way you want BEFORE installing in the car!

As it is now, you have an original system who's function you don't really understand, it's modified beyond easy restoral to original, and it's installed so that it's hard to work on.

I'm guessing you'll never do it like this again!

But if you really want help, you'll need to give more information (like the photo requested). Also, you'd mentioned someone else had done something similar. Have you PMed them? They probably have some understanding of the system operation as you said thiers is working...

Another way to go is to work backwards from the lights. Hook them up to the relays, then make sure you can control the relay (this is easy to do with just some wire to ground and +12v). If you can control the releay, then go back to the next step. 2 amps is a lot of juice to run relays. I'm guessing that some wire is connected to the wrong place, and you're dumping straight to ground in some condition.

FWIW, I gotta say that the radio shack site sucks for tech information.

Matt

 

I'm no wiring expert, that is for sure, but I have the ALTA/IPF light set up. I'm using the switch that came with it, (and the supplied relay), and I haven't had any problems.

I wired mine up to activate only when my high beams are activated, (by tapping into the green/yellow striped wire).

I mounted the tiny little mouse-like switch on my dashboard, utilizing the gap in the dash panels to hide the cord a bit...




Therefore, the switch that came with it works like this:

You press the button, and a green LED inside the switch lights up. This means that the lights are "armed and ready", but not yet on.

It is only after you activate your high beams, that the lights actually turn on. At that moment, the green LED is replaced by an amber one.
(I like to think of the amber being "hot", and therefore the lights are on).

When you switch back to low beams, (and therefore are not using the IPF lights), the green LED lights up again.

I hope this helps describe the stock switch's behavior to you guys.

Here's a link to my admittedly poor write-up on the installation: http://web.mac.com/jonnieoh/iWeb/My%...%20How-To.html

 

Lots of random responses to the above:

1) Nothing is irreversible but the work required is just as hard than finishing the job. The issue appears to be my inability to do quality connections...I suspect I'm blowing the fuses just because I'm all thumbs

2) I had the proper test equipment or so I thought. Several inherited tools proved to be non-functional. Imagine my confusion, measuring bad circuits with bad test equipment.

3) Alta just sells the stuff, no clue about the components. I called them weeks ago when planning this mod. IPF is overseas, they suggested a US point of contact but once I found a fellow Nam-er who had done this successfully (here and here) I was 100% sure of what I needed to do so i did not call. I'm still sure, just falling short on the execution.

4) Everything was working right up to the point I cut the switch off. Couldn't bench test because all the necessary components were firmly attached to the car. I understand the wiring harness 100% and I understand the gozintas and gozoutas of the switch (just not the PC board piece which shouldn't be hard, just doesn't seem relevant at this point). Switch wire has ground, always on (when the brights are on that is), and accessory power out. Switch has ground, power in, and power out. This is no kidding a no brainer. Cue the music..."if I only had a Brain"

Good news is I just met my new neighbor...he's a professional car restorer and hot rod builder. He brought over his voltmeter and found the dead fuse. He thought he'd found the problem and left. Once I blew the second fuse, he agreed to chase this down when I get back from MTTS.

I suspect he'll end up doing the connections for me and that will solve the problem.

Thanks everyone for taking time to respond

I'll repost when this gets solved just to close the loop.

 

Dr Obnxs,

argghhhhhhhh!

 

but one thing for sure, is bad connections are usually opens or intermittants, and won't blow a fuse, they'll prevent operation.

Since everything is on the car, working "backwards" is probably the best. Hook 12 volts to the lights, make sure they work and there's no short there.

Then hook them to the relay, make sure you can control the relay.

Then to the switch, and make sure you can control the relay from the switch.

Troubleshooting is, and has always been, devide an conquer!

Matt

 

Dr O - you seem to have an abundance of patience, send me some.
Have a good day.

 

Unless "they" touch and cause a short...

 

just separate them and see if the problem goes away. But then, if all your connections don't use insulated connectors, or are really pointy and separated with just a bit of electrical tape, you got more work ahead of you than just finding which one has poked through...

FWIW, you can go to pretty much any electronics store and get Molex connectors in any number of conductors with .062 or .090 pins. If soldered, these will take tons and tons of current. (well, not tons but more than most connections need). Then you end up with good connectors, no possibility of wire to wire contact, and a way to disconnect parts when you need to. Live and learn!

Matt