Just FYI, not off-topic.

In my research I encountered a Forum interaction between an engineering student and Douglas Milliken (yes, that Milliken). The student published a software solution for many of the primary chassis dynamics calculations, under the auspices of his professor.

And after sniffing it's provenance carefully, I went to https://suspensioncalculator.com, and was impressed. I'm a bit paranoid about software, but decided this was trustworthy and am now exercising the installed Windows (in my case Windows 10) application called "Suspension Calculator".

Download is a zip file, with a polite setup program included. The download is here.

So now I'll loop back on this thread and sanity check my thoughts (and the author's code).

Cheers,

Charlie

 

I notice that you have a Cooper S. This could explain some of the handling differences that Charlie and I are seeing. It is hard to research, but it appears that the S model has a different front sway bar than what is installed in the JCW. Following past models, the JCW would have come from the factory with a stiffer front sway bar than the S did. This would cause more body roll, as seen.

I did look this up on realoem.com, but they don’t list any specs (eg: sway bar diameters) like they do for the previous gen MINIs. So, this makes it difficult to make an actual determination. But it does identify 2 listings, one being for the “sports suspension option” which in the past has been the JCW hardware.

As for caster - I think the addition of 1 deg would be ideal and worthwhile. And I would not worry about it being adjustable. Put the bushings in and run with it.

 

I have a 17 year old step son that escaped out a bedroom window last night at about 1am. He came home at 8:45 am claiming to have been out for a run. Anyway dealing with him and the local PD i was home to receive the stiffer front sway bar. I am thinking not to install it before the next run to see how the car performs with just the stiffer spring.

Thanks everyone for the contributions to the thread. I have enjoyed the conversation.

Does anyone really run for 7.75 hours that isn't in a marathon? I don't believe him, just for an information point.

best Regards John C

 

Cherche la femme….

 

The car thing… sounds like a plan. Let us know how the springs work.

Stepson thing - I feel for you. Hope it goes well.

 

When I was seventeen, I hitchhiked from Boston to Mobile Alabama. I spent a month in Fairhope, just East of Mobile on the Gulf coast. Cherchez la femme! She was Marilee, and the sweetest thing God ever made. I left my job in Mobile, and vacated the state after her father found us at my "shotgun shack" when we should have been at the movies. Glad he didn't shoot me.

When my son (now 32) was seventeen, he was with friends and entertaining some ladies, when they ran out of refreshments. My son thoughtfully volunteered to procure more, and drove to his place of employment (in a blizzard) to secure spirits, and wound up arrested. There's just something about seventeen.

Both he and I survived. But enough of that.

I've been a student of driving since I first encountered Pierro Tarrufi's "Art and Science of Motor Racing". During my two wheel period (an eighth of a million miles) I attended two racing schools run by Kieth Code whose book "A Twist of the Wrist" I found outstanding.

In the last twenty years, running with NER SCCA, I've attended three Evolution Schools (and have the sticker "Now I Suck Less" on my fridge.

But the last really positive tweak to my thinking was created by the work of Vivek Goel.

His teachings are available HERE, and I heartily recommend them. His approach to the racing line I found hugely relevant to my own experience in autocrossing, and different from the classical teachings I grew up on.

Cheers,

Charlie

 

I am just 3 years into autocross. I had a asphalt stock car when I was very young and was never competitive due to running wrecked discarded equipment. I finally decided to go to college with the plan to race again one day. Then got sidetracked by competitive sailing. Next was several years of running English Springer Spaniels in hunt test and the field trials. In hindsight wish I had just gone back to racing. I am now officially old I just plan to hang out in the garage with the motorbike, the mustang and the Mini. I will run auto x until I cant do the associated work in the garage and at the events. It is a sort of full circle with the hobbies.

 

I grew up reading about all of the racing that was being done at the time. I never once dreamed of doing what the likes of Mark Donahue and Phil Hill were doing. But I did love driving my MGA and Fiat 124 Spyder. The Fates took me all around the States here and landed me back in the NE in the area I grew up, and raised a family. I got back into skiing when one child asked if I would take her skiing. I have since skied at places I never thought would be possible. In 2003 we got our first MINI and with that came the introduction to a very enthusiastic group of MINI owners, which lead me to taking one of my later MINIs to one of the iconic road course race tracks in the area. I got hooked. Our local car clubs (BMW CCA, in particular) provide non-competitive on track experiences, with in car instructors. I have learned a lot and progressed to the point where I have been asked why I have not become an instructor. I was none to young at the time I started this and I am a lot older now and looking forward to another season of going to the track. The Fates have taken me to places that I never dreamed of when I was younger. I still enjoy the “adventure” and I continue to learn. Continuing to learn has made skiing and driving on the track fun. If it wasn’t for the learning part, driving on the track would be just driving in circles and going no where.

Let the Fates take you where they may and never put an age on yourself.

If you would like to experience “racing” (but without the risk) look into how you can take your MINI out on the track in a non-competitive fashion. Best would be to have an instructor in your car. It is never too late to try. Just one thing… if you do take that MINI out on a race track, set that rear sway bar to full soft, the rear shocks to full soft and the front shocks to 2 clicks from full hard. Out on the race track, especially the first time, understeer is your friend (don’t ask me how I know). Also, upgrade your front brake pads to a race pad and change your brake fluid (MINI stuff is good; Motul 600 is better).

No matter what you do, enjoy the adventure.

Chin up and enjoy.

PS - I also grew up sailing with my Dad on the St Lawrence river amongst the Thousand Islands. Beautiful!

 

Good afternoon all,
I have a few things to get ready on the car for the autocross on Sunday. I plan to disconnect the rear sway bar and reset ride height. Button everything up and continue to dream of corner scales. The only change is the stiffer springs. I will see if I can get someone to take a picture of the car cornering. I will catch up with everyone on Monday morning. Have a great weekend.

 

The autocross yesterday was a very humbling experience. The group is all getting ready for national events and set the course very difficult. Out of 6 runs, I got lost on course 5 times. Then to make matters worse one of the really fast guys took my car and laid down a blistering fast time. The whole group was a buzz at how well the car works. Granted this is based on one run by one very good driver. I was in the car with him, and he was talking and coaching me the whole time. After the run he said he could easily get a coupe seconds faster if he focused. I have no indication if the car is still lifting the rear wheels. No comments were made, and I have not seen any pictures to update the issue. Apparently, I am better at setting up cars than driving. Very frustrating. I won't give up and I need an evo school!

will update more soon.

Regards, John

 

It is humbling to see first hand the abilities of an experienced driver. I hope you took notes.

Getting lost on the course happens. Autocross is like learning a new language. There will be mistakes at first, but as you do it, you will get better and better.

There were several things I did to help avoid getting lost. First was to walk the course several times. The second time around I would stop periodically and squat down so my eyes were at my driving level to look at the sea of cones and to pick out the next several turns from that point. The next thing I would do is stand at the start line and close my eyes and run as much of the course as I could in my mind’s eye. At the point I got “lost” I would walk to that point (following the course) and walk the course from there. I would do that until I could play the whole course in my head. Lastly, for my first run, I would run the course as slow as I needed to in order to get it right. Stop if needed. I would leave all of the traction controls fully on which would remind me to slow down when they kicked on. If you get the course right on the first run, the “muscle memory” that you develop that first run will be what your brain remembers for all of your following run. If you get it right, you will likely get the next runs right. If you get the first run wrong, you will likely get the next runs wrong.

“Slow is fast”

It sounds like you have a person that can help you to become a better driver. If he is willing have him ride in the car with you. Don’t drive to impress him with how “fast” you can drive. Drive to impress him as to how well and smoothly you can drive and how well you listen and follow instructions.

Remember, the first objective of running an autocross course is to get a time. Any time you get is better than a DNF.

As for your car, what was the setup you were driving? You said previously that you were going to disconnect the rear swaybar and set the ride height. Was that to match up with the front height with the new springs? I assume you reconnected the swaybar and that you were running the new (400 lb ?) springs in the front. What level was the rear swaybar set? How did you have the shocks set at?

 

I agree with your comments about running autocross. At this point I have participated in 23 events. I remember last year at the same location I had trouble getting lost on course. recently i thought back and laughed to myself that i had come a long way since that time. Well, that was premature! I had not gotten lost since early last year and it is very humbling. I guess if it was easy it would not be as much fun.

So the summary of the current suspension set-up

I am running the Ohlins road and track coil overs MCS MU00S1 With Vorshlag camber plates.
I changed the front springs to the 70 N/mm spring that equals about 400 lbs. per inch. -----The kit comes with 60 N/mm front springs
The front sway bar is factory Mini Cooper S with aftermarket adjustable end links and factory bushings.
The rear spring is rated at 80 N/mm
rear sway bar is NM Engineering 25 mm tube set on the stiffest setting providing 642 lbs. of force and that is 252% more than factory. ( number provided by NM Engineering the softer setting is 510 lbs. 180% more than stock)
I have the camber at neg 2 degrees front and rear Toe .04/Total toe .08 Caster factory no adjustable 4.2 degrees.

I ordered the same wheels that Charlie already vetted out
Neuspeed RSe05 black -- 88.05.03BS

Size: 17x8.0
Offset (E.T.): +45mm
PCD (Bolt Pattern): 5-112
Center Bore: 57.1mm
Weight: 17 lbs.
Center bore opened to 66.6 mm

Tires are the Bridgestone re-71rs 225/45 17

The car was tuned by Lou at proto type R, and has all the modifications allowed by the STU rules. High flow cats Milltek exhaust, forge intercooler, charge pipes, forge intake tube and, high flow cold air intake. All new motor and tranny mounts with Black bushings. Wavetrack limited slip. iSweep pads, new rotors and braided lines.

Last Saturday i disconnected all the sway bar links and and tried to measure the ride height as level front to rear as a starting point. I think i will order a camber gauge and I am so tempted to get scales. The car feels very planted at the current settings. We have a "test and tune" event coming up and I will bring tools and tweak on it and report results.


I will get better at the driving side of the sport. Last Sunday was a humbling experience as I stated. I am still hungry to improve and Sunday being lost on course was still better than being in my office!

Regards, John

 

Sunday on my way home from the autocross I ran into Colin Ryser on the highway coming back from a Grid Life event he attended in Michigan. I watch his YouTube channel and was surprised to just see him on the highway. He lives in Kansas City Mo. and you can find him on YouTube as Colin Ryser. It is a small world. LOL

 

Just a word to the wise - the center bore you'll need on those wheels is 66.6 mm.

Cheers,

Charlie

 

yes sir, had them opened to 66.6. it's listed on the last line of the wheel spec. I used the same shop you used! I try to be a good student.

 

John - Sounds like you are having way too much fun.

 

last weekend auto cross was fun and the driving improved. No picture of the car but it is reported it is still lifting rear wheel. was told 3 inches and that is less. No changes before next event as I am not sure if i should install the heavy front sway bar now or not. Seems the stiffer front springs helped. Wondering what the corner weights would look like. The car is clearly better than me. I am going to add more negative camber for the next event.

 

Just guessing here, but that likely true of about 99.99% of all drivers.

 

Sounds like you are getting there. The added camber will definitely help.

A suggestion… Before adding the front sway bar, play with the shock adjustments. Stiffen the fronts and/or soften the rears. This will approximate the effect the larger front sway bar will have. Remember that the shocks only affect the dynamics of the car. So, even when the fronts are stiffer, the springs will still compress the same amount and the rear wheel will lift. It just may take longer. You could do this at your next outing after a few runs. Just keep a log book with where you start, the step changes you made and where you end up, along with how the car felt and maybe times.

Then add the sway bar and see how that matches your notes.

 

Thanks for the suggestions, sounds like a good plan. July 7th is the next event and it is run on an asphalt circle track. Going to tap into my teenage years and set-up for the left turns and the banking. This location has two ovals nested with a cross over. The outside i believe is 3/8 and the inside is 1/4 mile. The course usually runs the outside oval then cross to the inside and then back to the outside. It has been a lot of fun in the past.

 

I’ve done similar oval track autocross events. Huge fun and a lot different from the parking lot events.

Enjoy!

 

Quick update, ran autocross Sunday on the oval track. The car and i were more competitive than past events at least early in the day. My step son asked to go along on so we ran as two driver entry so the car gets hot with little time between runs. At some point the car broke/lost/unthreaded the right sway bar end link. I don't have the car on ramps yet to take a close look but the rod was no longer connected to the top link. Discovered while changing tires in the rain. After about 3/4 of the combined runs i notice car was down on power. Was concerned that the clutch was slipping.

Got home last night from work and connected my laptop and ran the diagnostic software. It pulled a bunch of error codes concerning the charge tubes and/or possible air leaks before/after turbo. I felt a bit better. The thinking is I have an air leak someplace and the car wasn't getting boost and then as result running rich. At some point went to a reduced power "safe guard" map. Thus leading me to think I was loosing power from the clutch slipping. Also had an odor that i need to investigate maybe the serpentine belt?

Now the question is did the end link rod wreck the charge tube that runs in the same area on the right side of the car? Hope to find out tonight. I did replace the plastic tubes with metal last fall during the build. Was happy the loose rod did not wreck/damage the wheel.

PS the outside loop is a 1/2 mile oval and inside loop is in deed a 1/4 mile.

 

Current status, the hot side charge pipe had indeed come loose at the turbo end. Seems a lot of things shake loose when you have all black power flex everywhere. No damage to anything from the loose sway bar link. My bigger problem is that it seems the odor that i was also concerned about is indeed the clutch. I dropped the starter and at a minimum the clutch is glazed. It for sure is not happy. I am not blaming the boy but he is incredibly hard on the car when he drives. He was pretty good two years ago when he was involved in the sport. After going two years not driving the car he had some pretty rough moments. Doesn't really matter. Trying to decide if I want to go ahead and drop the tranny and see what's going on with the clutch or just drive on. on much more minor note seems I need to replace the brake pad wear sensers. I didn't replace them when i did the brake and one had cracked. I am sure that is the source of my current "brake service required" code that wont clear. If anyone thinks autocross is cheap I would say it is all relative and you can spend as much as you want!

 

With what I do, it is called “track crack”. Once one gets hooked, no amount of money spent is too much….

I have a 3 day track event coming up with my JCW. New tires, new race brake pads for the front, new rotors, tires mounted, brake fluid change and I am sure I have forgotten something. And, oh, those pads will last about 5 track days and the tires maybe 10. So, yeah, I feel your pain.

Sounds like “someone” is riding the clutch. I am pretty sure Charlie Thompson never had clutch issues from autocrossing his tuned F56 JCW. I’d drive it and see if it comes back to life.

I zip tie the brake sensors off to the side. It saves them from wearing out. You can then easily reinstall them if they are needed for any car inspection.

 

Great tip on the brake sensors. Sometimes the obvious isn't obvious. Thank you.