No offense, but my experience is quite different. Skill level can vary wildly not just within a single run group, but from what that run group represents within the same club from region to region. And the higher up the ladder you go, the greater the disparity can be right up into the instructor ranks. Sure, some differential is the capability of the car, but by no means even most of it.

To prove the point, here's some hard numbers for you from LRP last fall, a track thats easy to drive, but notoriously difficult to drive fast. From a typical session, the lowest speed recorded on any single lap from that session was 43.1 MPH. In the same session, the fastest minimum speed on a single lap was 62.5 MPH. Now, I didnt all of a sudden forget how to drive, nor did I get hit by a bolt of lightning out of the blue to go almost 20 MPH faster at the apex of some corner. Someone was holding me up. And it didnt just happen once, as the next lowest speed recorded was 43.6, followed by 51.1. A bunch were in the 57-59 range, my bests were in the 62's.

From the lowest number to the highest, its pretty obvious that a 20 MPH differential in apex speed is huge (actually 57 to 62 is huge. 43 to 62 is beyond comprehension). Numbers that dramatic aren't the result of the difference in cars capability, they are unequivocally the difference in driver skill level and commitment. The drivers going that slow in those corners were no where near the limits of their machinery and frankly should never have been out on track in that run group. Which is the long winded way of saying that we were not at all at "about the same level".

As the speeds increase, particularly in street cars, many HPDE drivers come smack up against their personal limitations and comfort level. In those venues, rare is driver who truly maximizes what their car is capable of giving them. You can draw conclusions from what you see on track about the package, like you + a MINI is faster than him + a whatever, but thats really all you can do at a DE (where no one is competing btw) or even in amateur racing where again the driver skill level disparity is wide but at least the cars are classed competitively. And that should actually make you feel really good, cause it wasnt just the MINI that made the pass, it was you driving it well enough to make it happen.

 

You're missing the point of my post.

All I was saying is the mini is a VERY capable car. For every porsche I pass, I get passed by a Miata...

Obviously it's driver skill, you could put a good driver in a wheelchair and he'd probably pass me.... I'm just saying the mini is no slouch at the track.

Enuff said....


Mark

 

Miatas eh? they bring back memories

If Mazda put more power in them id consider revisiting one

BUT

i dont remember the Miata being as much fun as the JCW, especially when you get passed on the road by Taxis and other pedestrian cars.

must be some modified mazda to pass a JCW??

 

Before my last car (supercharged C5 Convertible) I sold my last two cars.

1) supercharged '95 Miata putting 206rwhp out.






2) supercharged 306 cu.in. V8 '95 Miata putting out over 550 RWHP.







So, yeah, a little modified....

And I assure you either one would have given my modified JCW a run for it's money on the track. (more so the red one, the black one was overkill)

Mark

 

Just an FYI (I didnt read the thread just the title heheh), but my friend who is also a MINI Sales Advisor purchased a truck so he can haul his dirt bike around and sold his factory JCW back to the dealer here.

2009 Dark silver with black roof, leather/alcantara steering wheel, ALTA intake, and I think thats it that will be for sale here. It only has ~9000 miles on it, and never tracked. I think they will be asking 26-27k for it. Seems like a DAMN good deal to me, wish I could trade mine in and pick it up.

 

Mark, remember, many times it is in the driver and not necessarily the car. Although having a capable car helps, but a qualified driver is essential too.

 

The lines of the Clubman are actually really hot when they're lowered and a JCW front end IMO. Stock, I don't think they look all that great. I was surprised at how plain mine looked when I bought it. I ordered the front JCW front bumper before I even took delivery, and coil overs not long after. That setup just totally changes the look of them: long(er) and low.

But if you want traditional MINI, hands down, the HB is for you.

I never installed it. It's new in box because I'm broke from a family emergency I had to pay for. Almost had to sell the car.

I agree. I hate how some movies portray it's all about a driver... if a stock Yugo goes against a ZR1, I really don't give a rats *** WHO is driving it! If they know how to work a clutch, shift, and step on the gas, the ZR1 is gonna win! Or how about we drag race 2 of the fastest stock bikes on earth, yet modified and stretched to race... on a dirt road next to a farm?

But anyway... if you want to read a little more about how I was trying to describe a MINI's handling, but in short, and professionally written? Pick up the latest Car & Driver and see it compared to several other vars at VIR.

Here is a link to the article: http://www.caranddriver.com/features..._3a17.1_page_3

I must say, I agree with everything they said, and am quite disappointed with the outcome where it landed in the lineup. If it's running the factory run flats, then I can see why the lap times weren't as good as they could be, and why they consider the ride "harsh". They'd hate riding in mine then! They did it right with keeping them all stock to the point in getting the best factory options possible (track packs where applicable), but I'd like to see the same test with better tires on the MINI. Even a set of coil overs.

 

Errr... not necessarily. Yeah at a drag strip or around Daytona, but its not a sure thing at a tight AX with minimum gate widths. And if its raining? Or say we go ice racing with the vette's on its big wide summer meats, how 'bout then? And if the venue was at the IROC on a fabbed up, twisty, greasy indoor track? My money be on Vettel in the Yugo versus the old lady in the ZR1. Believe me, every club race organization in this country has a stories about some guy who'd drive his car to the track, kick *** on all the competitors with fully prepared cars and twice the HP, and then drive home. And they're true. I've met some of them and seen their trophies.

So much depends on the venue. Go to a track where theres not as big premium on driver skill and the car will come to the fore. Go to one where things are more technical, where mistakes are easily made, sprinkle in (literally) a little weather and driver skill is what its all about (okay tires are in there as well). Never underestimate what the driver brings to the equation. Its what motoring is all about!

 

Ok, um... lets keep it apples to apples, lol. Just as I said, who would take a drag bike on a dirt track, who would take a ZR1 ice racing on summer tires? I'm talking about obvious things here.

I'm full aware of the underdog, cause I used to be one of them. Out running Vipers and Porsche's in my SR20DET driven '92 Sentra SE-R. I'm sure if Michael Schumacher rolled up in a Mustang GT, he could beat me in a Z06! Shoot... the MINI's racing heritage is BASED on being the underdog... point is, you missed my point, lol. I never underestimate a driver, but who brings a knife to a gun fight?

 

No, your points are perfectly transparent. I'll depart as it's fairly obvious there's little to be accomplished here. Clearly I'm not going to get you to question any of your beliefs at this stage, perhaps after a few more seasons. In the meantime, truly the best of luck to you.

However before I depart I'm honor bound, somewhat sternly for which I apologize in advance, to point out something to the home audience. At an HPDE, there are no underdogs, there are no winners, no losers. It is not a competition, its not racing, its not even race prep, unless your smart enough to figure out on your own how to use it as such without pissing off the powers that be. There's no sanctioning body, no performance rules, no classification on the basis of car, no qually, no passing in corners, no out braking, no transponders, no fighting for the apex, no hans requirement, no strategy, no trophies, etc, etc, etc. As such, except in fairly rare and illicit circumstances, it is a neither a test of car against car nor of driver versus driver. What these programs are about is learning how to develop into a better driver, be that on or off track. That's why its called Driver Education, not Club Racing.

Back to your regularly scheduled programming. Have fun!

 

Not sure what you consider my "beliefs" to be, but ok...

 

wow now we are way off topic. anyone have any new thoughts on the topic or hardtop vs clubman?

 

Wow, sorry... didn't even notice. I apologize.

 

Ok... I'll bite just to keep this thread going.

I would only think about a Clubman if I had to use the extra room. The HT is plenty versatile with the fold down rear seats and I think they look better than the Clubie... sorry guys, just personal preference.

But really... how long does it take for you to decide? It took me all of a bout an hour at the dealership. As for new or used. If you can get the color and the options you want in a used one and save 10k, why not buy used. But if it is only a 5k saving, I would personally buy new. There is nothing like having the new car smell... even if it only lasts for 6 months.

 

Well i live at least 8 hours from the closest dealer, so i am trying to gather as much info as possible before i start getting hassled by a dealer.

 

Most Mini dealers don't hassle the buyers. The cars use to sell themselves ... maybe not as true in this current economy.

I agree with some of the other posters. Buy a standard hardtop unless you REALLY, REALLY need the extra space on a pretty regular basis. I also think the hardtops look better and might ride a bit different as well with the shorter wheelbase and a little less weight.

 

In general:

More weight, less grip, slower acceleration
Shorter wheelbase, less forgiving, choppier ride

Before I went to test the cars, I was pretty set that I was going to buy a JCW Clubman. The only variation would have been an S Clubman. I needed the extra space, so there was no question. However, I did drive an S Hardtop for comparison. It did feel quick, but also twitchy. Not overly so, but noticeable. It felt like I really needed to minimize my steering inputs. Also, the ride did seem a bit more intense than the Clubman.

In theory, the JCW Clubman won't corner quite like a JCW Hardtop and it will accelerate a touch slower. However, the vast majority of people are not going to notice. In a practical sense, I don't think you will miss those last few percentage points...

 

flatlander

where did you find the John Cooper Works Owners Club. I did a search and nothing came up.

 

Unfortunately I don't remember as it was a few months ago. However, I don't think it was in the same place where I found the Horizon Blue badge. I'll think about some more and maybe I'll remember something else...