In the midst of looking at helmets, I ran across this on the SCCA website... I don't think I'll be buying a full-face helmet now!

I was wondering how a full-face helmet would work in a car with functioning airbags - it appears that they don't work very well! The explanation makes total sense to me. This probably isn't a big issue for autocrossers, but for DE's I definitely wouldn't want the risk - breaking your jaw would NOT be fun! I mean, how can you eat Krystal's burgers through a straw?

PDF Version:

http://www.scca.com/_Filelibrary/Fil...agAdvisory.pdf

 

I wouldn't be too concerned about it. The testing was done in formula 1 cars and was trying determine the realative effectiveness of airbags compared to Hans device for driver neck safety. The real difference is that the airbags inthe F! cars completely filled the space between the steering wheel/dash and the drivers chest, allowing very little forward movement before impacting the airbag. The problem was the airbag striking the chin guard as it deployed explosively.

In passenger cars, the airbag deploys and the driver moves forward into it. Therefore the chin guard would hit the airbag at a lower speed... As long as the driver is sitting a reasonable distance from the steering wheel.

The author of the study would not comment on whether it was safer to wear an open faced helmet or full face helmet....

I'm not too concerned. and will continue to wear my full faced helmet.

 

I'm looking for the original document but I"m not sure this is valid. Using google on the original source citation, actually took me to the SCCA forums and it appears the original research is years old and may be very specific to F-1 cars.

More importantly the first read of this sounds a little strange. The purpose of a Full Face Mask is to specifically protect the Mandible and Maxialla (Jaw). The helmet distributes the force of impact through its shell and the crush foam in it. An airbag is also designed to distrubute the force of impact across a larger area, thus cushioning you in a collision. So frankly for a normal car and a full face helmet this doesn't make sense.

Now if it said that the chin of the helmet, upon being struck by the airbag, could toss your head back thus breaking your neck, I'd be more inclined to believe it.

But if you are wearing a full face helmet, you should survive being thrown from a motorcycle and striking pavement at relatively high speeds, without fracturing your jaw.

At least speaking from on-the-job observations...

MacGuruTx

 

Anyone know what the impact of wearing glasses are--when getting hit with an airbag? Seems that's something to be concerned about, but I've never seen or heard warnings about that.

 

Injury to the eye can occur but it isn't that common. See-
http://www.cartalk.com/content/colum.../April/06.html
and
http://content.health.msn.com/conten...e/67/80015.htm
Less than 2.5% and mostly minor.

However there is potential for more injury according to one study-
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/q...&dopt=Abstract

Sometimes it is injury from the airbag/powder to the eye without glasses or the glasses itself whether sunglasses or prescription glasses which are required for driving in some cases.
http://www.cib.vt.edu/research/airba...e_injuries.htm

 

Wow Minihune--

thanks for that VERY informative information. I feel a lot better now.

 

It's hard for me to say one way or another...

While BMX and moto-x racing, I've wrecked and the chin bar has always saved me from injury - however, I did have a sore or bruised jaw on a couple occasions. Higher forces have caused broken jaws on street circuits before...

While driving my wife's Grand Cherokee, wife in passenger seat, kids strapped in their car seats in the back, we experienced a frontal offset crash on the driver's side. I was going about 45, and the other lady was going about 25 - she turned left into my driver's front, running a red light in the process. All airbags deployed, smashing my glasses into my nose and leaving a small cut, but the polycarbonate lenses took the impact with no visible signs of damage. However, both my wife and I had bruised/sore jaws for a couple of days among other minor injuries.

At higher speeds, I can imagine the force would do more damage - helmet manufacturers do not test their helmets for vehicles with airbags - in fact, Snell doesn't test them for that either. Hitting objects, smacking rollcages, etc., sure... but not for a head-on impact with an airbag.

IMHO, this is still a big unknown and cannot be conclusively proven either way... There's only one certainty, which is a good helmet, one with a proper fit, is better than no helmet!

 

Check out the video on this link.
http://www.nhtsa.dot.gov/airbags/pag...ntalDriver.htm

Like Keith said the driver moves into the airbag. A good quality racing harness will prevent your upper body from moving forward towards the steering wheel. Personally I would rather have the helmet between my jaw and the steering wheel.

I think the SCCA is crying wolf in this case and would be foolish to impliment any new regulations. For people with larger heads (size 8 and above) there is no choice but to go with a full face version. Most manufactures do not make open or closed face helmets that big. The only brand that comes to mind is the Bell M3-Xtra retail $555.

WARNING: RACING IS A HAZARDOUS SPORT

 

This video is quite starteling-What about the seatbelt pretentioners? Shouldnt your seatbelt have locked in this situation? I used to work as an assitant mechanic for Mercedes-Benz, and I had a technician explain to me that in the event of an accident, the seatbelt would pull down tight against you holding you very tight against the seat, (not the same as locking), and this is why the seat belt mechanism had to be replaced after every wreck. I believe the MINI does this too, and when I had my wreck, I had slight burn under my neck, and I do not believe my face went into the airbag. (i had a seizure).

 

Some of us have already expressed our opposition to this SCCA advisory and proposed rule because it is based (apparently) on a study of F1 cars in VERY high speed collisions, not passenger cars at highway speeds, and did NOT compare differences in protection between full and open faced helmets. More research should be done to address this issue before reacting to a study that plainly did not address the issues we face in autocrossing street cars with normal airbags.

About glasses, I was in one collision (not in a car with airbags), and my shoulder belt stopped my upper body fast enough so that my glasses flew off my face and ended up on the top of the dashboard!!

 

On the subject of harnesses, I wouldn't put one in a car without a rollcage or at the very least a bar going between the B pillars so I had a hard mount point that allowed the harnesses to be properly fastened. IMHO, the Schroth harnesses are a compressed spine waiting to happen if you roll over because of the rather serious angle of the mounting belts from over the top of the seat to the rear seat belt mounting points... Even with Schroth's insistence that the webbing will tear, some of their salespeople and techs told me they don't advise using them in street cars without a rollcage.

The jury is still out for me - I won't use a harness in my car without a cage or hard bar arrangement, and I wonder about the safety of a full face helmet with an airbag. Both are probably fine and definitely better than nothing - I still use a full face helmet and will until I hear some more news/proof/etc.

SCCA only mentioned Solo and other higher speed events - not autocrossing. Track speeds that I have seen are significantly higher than what I see autocrossing, for sure, with many more hard things to hit on the track. That's what worries me - not autocrossing speeds, but track speeds, especially triple digits and hitting something hard. How's the airbag going to affect a full-face helmet in that situation?

 

A Hardbar Harness bar could be a good solution.

Hardbar, manufactures of Corvette, BMW, and Prosche hardness bars is going to make one for the Mini. I have heard from a very good source that they will be doing the prototype at the end of this month. I cannot wait. I had a Hardbar harness bar in my Corvette Z06 and it was so nice to be on the track and be held into the seat with a 6 point harness setup.

If you are interested E-mail Gary Hoffman at GSHoffman@comcast.net Gary was an [font=Arial]Satellite[/font] Strutures Engineer so he knows his stuff!!! I would venture to guess better then any other designer of an Harness bar.

But the way the Vette harness bar cost me $270. So they are a reasonable price.

 

Where is this information available? I would be interested in reading it. I am still searching for the H. Gramling document referenced in the advisory.

If the testing was for F1, I have a feeling the jaw injuries had more to do with seating position than anything. The driver is reclined in a F1 car; the chin is most forward and already inclined toward the chest. The chin guard on the helmet would see a greater percentage of the load as the helmet contacts the bag, and the head can't tilt much more.

In a sedan, the driver is more upright. The chin may still contact the bag first, but the head can tilt, rolling onto the faceshield and upper part of the helmet. The load is distributed throughout the helmet.

In either event, the head should be moving into the bag, not the other way around. The speeds of opposing velocities are summed, so the airbag needs to be inflated before the head contacts it.

Brock

 

the host of the report has taken it offline... I don't know where it is currently available.