Somehow, I don't get the outrage at the burglars because the family was killed. To my mind it would be worse to burgle them if they were injured in hospital--adding injury to injury. It would also be worse if they were alive and not injured. Since they are dead, it has no effect on them. So, why is it worse than if they were alive? Not that it is OK, but I don't get how it is a bigger offense to steal from the dead than the living. The living would suffer from it, the dead would not.

 

The thief was a CONvict and the con part does not cause me to believe their story. I live 4 hours south of this area and heard about it that evening.

 

Robin you make a good point. However, they do have one surviving daughter, a 19 year old who wasn't with them. So in essence, the thieves were stealing what is probably now her property right in her time of need. That's the real travesty IMHO.

 

I didn't know about the daughter. That is horrific to lose your whole family at once like that, and does make the theft worse.

 

Did the California three strikes law get altered? I would expect Gutierrez to be facing 25 years to life.

 

That family may be dead (RIP), but their other family members & friends live on. It is an insult & outrage to them & others too.

 

To many factors to take into place of course... who's to say it was even his MINI to begin with? If it WAS his, than yes, he is spoiled: 17 y-o with a suspended license gets an R56 at 19?? Witness said they never saw the brake lights come on, you can't blame the car, it's just a tool. A tool is worthless without someone using it.

Who really knows the full extent what happen... if for nothing else, WE can use it as a lesson for the next time we feel a little excited in our cars. Be 100% aware of your surroundings, cause this is a perfect example of how what you do in your life can effect others.

 

In 2000, they excluded theft and drug charges (not distribution charges though) as a 3rd strike, due to some case in 99 of some dude that stole a pack of Chips Ahoy Chocolate Chip cookies for his third strike and got 25-to-life term. (prop 36) But I think the first 2 strikes can still be any felonies. This dude that stole from dead family's house and his girlfriend Amber True, both definitely fit the meth head MO.

 

I got my 1st MC at 18. Was paying $319/mo for a payment, and ~$280 for insurance. It was tough making it, had to cut back a lot for me to have the car I wanted, but I made it work. I paid off that MINI in June, just days after I ordered a MCSC for myself at 20. Both of these MINIs I have paid every penny on, from maintenance, to gas, to insurance, to payments. So it is possible, just got to be frugal.

 

Not trying to make light in a thread as serious as this one, but honestly, it sounds like you need to shop around a little for car insurance.

 

OK first and foremost I have NO sympathy towards the driver whatsoever, especially after not only having a DUI, but at the age of 17.. really?! Obviously the responsible thing to do would to not let the guy behind the wheel of an automobile, be it a performance vehicle or not. Seeing as any car can cause irreplaceable damage. Who's fault is it to blame? Maybe his parents, but hell he could of taken out his parents car for a drive? Maybe the state, enforcing a harsher punishment for a DUI especially for someone who's legally by the fed not even permitted to drink. The finger of blame can be pointed at a lot of people, and probably is. Yet, the only for sure person you can point it at is the driver. He obviously made some terrible choices which resulted ultimately in his death but more importantly the death of that innocent family.

After saying that, I am a 19 year old driver. I put myself in my MINI through my own means. I work very hard so I can drive my MINI and the only help I have with my $442.91 a month car payment is my father's co-sign which even made it possible for me to have the car. I am VERY disappointed at all of this talk I have seen about how any 19 year old driving a MINI is spoiled. My first car was a 1986 Chevy s10, then I graduated to a 1995 318i. Pretty rare to find a 4 banger bmw anymore eh? What a solid brute of a car that still runs great. I'm just sad to see that even the mere thought of someone my own age driving a MINI is automatically looked at as spoiled, or irresponsible. I would most definitely argue that I am not an irresponsible drive, I've had 2 parking tickets and 1 stop sign ticket in the very small amount of time I've had my license. I understand to most people that I would be considered un-experienced and I would agree with most on a whole. But, does being this age and with a MINI make me a irresponsible, spoiled person? I personally don't think so. Yes, that kid made some choices I would never make and has destroyed people's lives which is absolutely terrible, but I would like to see less of this "oh he's 19, thats why he was in this accident" or "Young kid, fast car" type of thing. He made that decision, and puts the rest of his peers in the spotlight for something we have not done. I realize the statistics of it, and cannot argue against it, but there are still some responsible young drivers..

 

I think a lot of people misunderstand what is going on with a person who typically gets the label of spoiled. It isn't the money that spoils a kid. Often the money is given to ease the gilt of the parent for not giving the child the love it needed. A spoiled child is someone who has grown up receiving very little empathy. To develop a well adjusted personality, a child needs to have someone who cares about it enough to understand how it is feeling and reflect its feelings back to it. With out this, the child does not really understand its own emotions, and has little empathy for others. This is a condition that is often handed down from one generation to the other. A person who has not received empathy doesn't know how to give it. So, that person's children receive little empathy...

People with this condition often seek weath and/or fame to fill the void. So, it is common for these folks to have money. Outsiders don't see lack of love in the child's life. They just see that the kid has been given expensive cars, clothes, etc.

I went to Palisades High School in the Pacific Palisades (West Los Angeles). This became a very high-end neighborhood as I grew up. Ronald Reagan lived about a mile away (before he became president), Lee Marvin lived down the street from us. Arnold Schwarzenegger's house is a short walk up the creek, a guy on one of my classes was from the Hilton family...

So, I got to see a lot of well-to-do unhappy kids. One of my friends had a 1949 Rolls Royce. Another guy had a Mercedes Gullwing, and occasionally drove his fathers Maserati to school. There were brand new Pontiac GTOs, Porsches, etc. My 9 year old, third owner Alfa Romeo Spider was in the lower echelons, along with firends' new VW beetle, and Plymouth Valiant.

A MINI being a sign of a spoiled child, you ain't seen nothin'.

 

I did as soon as I moved back to Bay Area, CA I switched to lowest full coverage ins could find, so I went to Mercury from Progressive that was cheaper
I try to pay the 6 month term for like $206 for 6 months. But I'm still taking in it the rear

 

Robin I'm not a sociologist, but I think what you have said here pretty much nails it. That being said there are parents that do everything in their power to help their troubled kids, some can get them the help they need, while others try to no avail. This may have been one of those all too many cases that ended with tragic results for all concerned.

As far as you young guys who have bought & paid for your own MINI's. That is great & you should be proud of that fact, I'll assume you've been helping your family by paying room & board & being a general help to them. Good on ya!

High insurance rates for young drivers, well tragedies like this do nothing, but cause you young folks to pay more.

Back on topic....

Stupid driver kills a family...

 

Interesting discussion on a terrible topic with many facets.

When I read it, I couldn't help but think "Glock fires 8 bullets, kills family of 4"

Would be an equivalent headline. And equally ridiculous.

 

One common theme that keeps coming up in this topic is the nature vs nurture argument. I see this a lot in studies of everything from human sexuality to criminal behavior to addiction research.

Like it or not, we as a species have a certain predisposition for risky behavior as young adults because in our past, it was advantageous to 'show off' for our mates to try to win them over. You only want your fittest individuals to propagate the species, and what better way to figure who's most fit than to have a couple of young guys try some [what we now call really stupid] things to show how well they can deal with dangerous situations. Unfortunately, these behaviors sometimes result in the injuries or deaths of other individuals, such as in this case.

This is why insurance rates drop so dramatically when a person turns 25. Biologists and psychologists have noted a trend in neural development that seems more or less completed in males by the age of 25 (roughly 23 for females), after which time risky behavior tends to taper.

I'll give an example from my own life. I'm 27. When I was 19 and not living with my parents any longer and could finally keep the animals I had always wanted to keep, I began to put together a collection of reptiles, mostly snakes. I had always had an interest in snakes but with mom and dad around, there was absolutely no way that was happening. Not too long after I began keeping snakes, I ventured into the world of venomous snake keeping. I started working with other keepers and learning as much as I possibly could. Right now I could rattle off the scientific names of probably hundreds of various snakes...totally useless but whatever. By 22, I had amassed a collection of literally some of the most dangerous snakes on the planet: various cobras, green and black mambas, taipans, death adders, etc. I had a couple of close calls but fortunately never something that resulted in a bite - which would have very likely resulted in my death because I did not keep my own antivenom.

I stopped keeping venomous snakes a few years ago when I began to feel uncomfortable with having so many in the house, especially after a few more than hair raising escape experiences. Fast forward to today - though I still am amazed by these animals and still learn about them and observe native ones in their proper setting, I doubt I could ever keep them again. Thinking back to the situations I put myself and my friends in before make me shudder.

I feel that this process highlights the natural progression that is common for our species. We take risks as younger people (us males anyway) to try to show that we are more fit. Sometimes it results in our deaths or dismemberments; worse, sometimes it results in the deaths of others; and sometimes...it results in fame and fortune (Jackass, anyone?). This is a tragedy to be sure, and that he drove a MINI into it really sucks, and that the family's home was then robbed is just phenomenally horrid. And that the drive didn't survive long enough to face the repercussions of his actions also seems disappointing. But it's not an uncommon event by any means.

 

Great you folks from all over the country put up your opinions about what might have happened in this situation. Hey, if a Mini Cooper was involved, it could have an effect on ALL of us in many ways. Could it be one of our friends, or a club member, or a relative? How about the local and state law enforcement...are they going to crack down on us even more now as a result of this?

I live less than a mile from this intersection along the Petaluma River in east Novato. I can see Lakeville Rd from my front window on the other side of the valley. On my way home from San Francisco that night in my '05 MCS, I heard on the news about a road closure due to a huge wreck where someone ran the red light at the Lakeville/37 intersection. The initial report was that there were 4 fatalities and the wreck involved a Mini Cooper and a minivan. I immediately thought about my daughter who works in a Sonoma winery and has an '07 pepper white MC, then I remembered that she was on the east coast on business. Phew! Thinking about it, since the initial reports were pretty sketchy, I assumed that the MINI was crossing onto Hwy 37 and was hit by the minivan running the light on 37!

What came to light later in the reports was that the MCS was the impact vehicle, which ran the light from Lakeville and impacted the Maloney's van on 37. One of you suggest that he was panicked after hitting another car and was trying to get away. Keep fantasizing there partner...It has been documented that he clipped the Honda CR-V, then continued through the redlight and impacted with the minivan in a continous motion.

Here's what probably happened (and the alcohol reference that seems to be coming to light in the days since the accident not withstanding). We all know our Minis accelerate like crazy (that's one of the reasons we love driving them!). What I've witnessed all to often are drivers who think the yellow light means they need to accelerate to hurry up and make the light. Don't know about other states but read the California Driver's Handbook and see what it says about how yellow lights should be handled. Basically, if you're right at the intersection and cannot stop safely, you should procede through the light. If you can make a safe stop then you should. I believe the CR-V was approaching the light and the Mini was coming up on him from behind when the light went yellow. The folks sitting at the redlight could see the Honda approaching (if they were looking) but probably not the Mini. The Mini driver & the Honda saw the light turn yellow and the Mini guy started accelerating thinking he could also make the light if the Honda went through.

What he didin't anticipate was that the Honda driver determined that he could make a safe stop so he started braking. This is probably where the Mini driver was going way too fast for the situation and clipped the rear of the Honda which sent him out of control and straight through the intersection where he impacted the side of the family's minivan which had just pulled away on the green light.

The alcohol reference now makes sense as anyone who drives over here regularly knows that NO ONE could make that 90 degree left hand turn onto 37 at the high rate of speed the kid was traveling at.

Here'a a little more detail for you. Lakeville Rd (the real name is not Hwy) is essentially a dead end at Hwy 37. (the street across the intersection is a farmland access called Reclamation Rd and is not a through street). Hwy 37 is the main cross road between I-80 and US 101 at the top of the San Francisco Bay. For 14 of the 19 miles between Vallejo and Novato it is a controlled speed 2 lane road with a K rail down the middle, with two breaks in the center wall. From Hwys 121 (where Infineon Raceway is located) to west 101 in Novato, it becomes a four lane road divided by a wide center median with a guardrail down the middle. It is NOT a freeway! Between 121 (a four way stop light) and 101 there is but one other stoplight and that is at the intersection with Lakeville. This intersection is well luminated at night and the sight lines on both roads are unobstructed for about a mile or so, so the drivers can see the lights well in advance and can usually see the other cars approaching the intersection.

The kid in the MINI was traveling southbound on Lakeville and the Maloneys were waiting a the stoplight on Hwy 37 headed eastbound to their home in Sonoma. They had to be in the left lane and the other car that had the injured occupant from Novato had to be next to them in the right lane at the light.

Just because someone is a trained race car driver, it doesn't mean they are a safer driver on the street. I know plenty of pro drivers who goes ***** out on the street as well!

 

Huh?

 

Please keep this on topic, and respectful folks.

 

American roads are not raceways. I wish drivers who insist on always speeding and driving aggressively would accept this fact.

 

patz66b,

I'm having a little trouble picturing the situation. Was the MINI coming to a T-intersection where he would have to turn? If he accelerated when he saw the light turn yellow, and was going 100 mph when he hit the van, wouldn't he have to be going 80 or 90 as he approached the intersection?

 

It isn't that the parents don't don't want to help the child, it is that they don't know how to help, and often get it wrong. It is definitely tragic for all concerned.

 

Same question from me as well.

I wonder if the estimated speed is even close to correct. You don't have to be travelling at triple-digit speeds for tragedy to result.

 

Yes, you got it. The MINI was traveling on the road where HE was goiing to have to make the left turn! Remember, what I said before is my guess at what happened not the official final results from the CHP report which hasn't been released yet. I'm making the assumption that the CR-V was the closest to the intersection (southbound) and the Mini approached quickly from the north, so he could have easily been going that speed!

We haven't heard at all from the driver of the Honda CR-V who was clipped by the Mini prior to the Mini plowing into the minivan.

 

I get what Patz is saying, because I know that intersection pretty well myself. Spent a lot of time at Sears Point (screw that Infineon nonsense).

The kid wrongly assumed the Honda would also race the yellow light, and instead the Honda braked, catching the kid out, who was accelerating, thinking he would follow the Honda through the intersection. He couldn't stop, probably tried to swerve around the Honda and try to get through the intersection. Unfortunately, he clipped the Honda and hit the Family. The perils of being an inexperienced 17 year old driver.

After reading this, I kind of wonder if the Honda was doing a little racing with the Mini, which led the kid to believe the Honda was going to run the yellow.