A brand new Miata is only a little bit more money than a Justa, and the new 86 will also be in that price area as well.

If your options are not brand new the list gets bigger, since you can easily find a nice used S2000, and other cars, for under 21k.

 

The S2000 and Miata are both awesome cars with almost no practical use as daily long distance commuters. Cramped, no cargo space, etc.

 

Agreed.

I wanted a MINI because they have a lot of character, they handle great, are practical, efficient, etc.

99% of the MINI experience can be had with the Cooper, in my opinion of course.


Same here. I drove the S (several times) and it just didn't impress me enough to spend the extra money and accept the additional drawbacks given what I was looking for in a car. Fact is, no stock MINI is very fast in a straight line. That's not what they're made for. If I wanted a *fast* car, I would have bought another Mustang that could blow the doors off all but a HEAVILY modded MINI.


Exactly what I was going to say. Just as much as the weight is an issue, it's how far the "cylinder" of the wheel is positioned away from the hub.


Forget all those and just get a used Exige or, hey, maybe a Ducati!

That certainly works for some people, but I think most people are looking for the gas mileage (most of the cars listed get much worse gas mileage), practicality (the hatch area of the Hardtop is pretty big with the seats down), etc.

If you just need two seats and no extra cargo room, then sure, why buy a Cooper when you could buy a used Cayman/Caterham/Ariel Atom, but for most of us, that's not a reasonable option.

 

Comparing buying a Miata or S2K to a Cayman is pretty

At best you are going to end up spending twice as much for the Cayman as you would for either of those or the Mini, so that's just a dumb comparison. If you go way out of your price range you can get a nicer car, who would have figured that.

It's not cramped unless you are a giant or fat. Cargo space is more limited but you'll still be able to get most things you need in there unless your trying to move furniture or a tv.

 

You specifically mentioned considering used cars, too. Obviously, I was talking about a used Cayman/Lotus/etc.

The fact remains, the Miata/S2000/FR-S/etc are all notably less efficient/practical than even a Hardtop MINI.

 

Yes, but a used cayman will still run you twice at least twice as much as a used S2000 or an NC Miata. Comparing them is silly

Also the BRZ is a coupe and has a back seat just like the Mini so you are not losing much there, with the added benefit of RWD, better handling, and much more power than a Justa and equal to an S. EPA hasn't been put out yet but the running rumor is 30/26 which isn't far from what I get on my Cooper S.

 

The MX-5 has a 15% higher base price and jumps to 24% more similarly equipped. They also require far more expensive modifications to be competitive in Solo.

I've looked at CPO cars up to $35,000 and don't want to give my MINI up for any of them until I quit autocrossing. And at that point I'll be too old/decrepit to have as much fun driving as I do now. Your boat may float in different waters.

 

We were talking about NEW Coopers and NEW Miatas, so we're talking about the 20-something thousand dollar price range. You can find a used Cayman or Lotus in that price range, now.


We are talking about Coopers. The Toyobaru is estimated to be a few thousand more expensive than a Cooper, your mileage estimate is notably worse than a Cooper, and it's a fastback... which means it will probably sacrifice headroom and cargo functionality compared to the Hardtop Cooper hatch.

Again, the point is, different people want different things in a car, so it's an overgeneralization to say "don't buy a justa... because there are better options."

If someone is looking for an agile, efficient, practical, unique car, the MINI doesn't have a lot of competition in its price range. Most everything else is either:

a) Less Efficient
b) Less Agile
c) Less Practical
d) Less Unique
e) More Expensive

And MOST of them fall into multiple of those categories, including the Miata (a,c,e), FR-S (a,c,e), used S2k (a,c), Fit (a,b,d), etc.

Basically, it is very hard to beat the Cooper's bang-for-the-buck when it comes to fun and practical.

 

I am neither giant nor fat (5'9, athletic, muscular.) but the cabin of the '06 MX-5 I recently test drove was decidedly cramped when compared to the cavernous interior of a MINI. It wasn't claustrophobic or uncomfortable, but I don't see it as a competitor as a DD/commuter in the comfort department.

 

The FR-S is supposed to be 21-23k, and the Miata is not so much more expensive that it's outrageous to consider it in the same class. Saying the FR-S is less practical than the Mini is stretching it too, since it designed big enough to fit a full set of four tires and tools so you can take it right to the track. That's enough space to haul stuff around in, so you're argument is only now down to efficiency. Yes it's less efficient than a Justa. But you'll run circles around one, and it's pretty much on par power and efficiency with an S. I'll take that from a car that handles better, drives with the right wheels and doesn't even have forced induction yet. Getting 30/26 is not some horrible concession, and it could be a lot worse

 

I'm not a giant, and I haven't always been fat. I'm just over 6 feet tall, but I must be taller than average when sitting down because I have never had enough headroom in most cars. Including the Miata. Even when I was in reasonable shape, I couldn't fit in one with the top up. And with the top down, the top of the windshield was very much in my line of vision.

I have at least five inches of headroom in the MINI. I won't even have to slouch to fit in it with a helmet on!!


I think comparing a MINI, which has been around for a while now, to the Toyobaru which hasn't even shown up in this country yet is a little off the mark...

 

All,

Thank you for the continued dialog. In giving this some considerable thought and also trying to bring some sense of conclusion to this particualr thread, I will say that -- based on my current thinking and circumstances -- I would buy a "Justa" (non-S version) -- were I to actually purchase a MINI today. In that sense I consider this to be somewhat of a "decision made," at least for the moment.

I have driven both cars ("S" and non-S) and -- while I can certainly appreciate the additional power of the S -- I still would have wanted a MINI even if all the manufacturer ever offered was a non-turbo version. The "Justa" is probably more in-line with my impression of traditional European sports cars: lots of style, great handling and road feel, but not necessarily a ton of power. This is also more consistent with the sort of driving I anticipate doing on a almost-daily basis -- much of that driving at 70 MPH *cruise* along the freeway, peppered with some stop-and-go periods. I do not think that my regular daily drive is really going to exploit the extra power of the turbo, and the "Justa" seemed plenty peppy for me for 99% of my driving.

Were I simply looking at buying one of these things for weekend drives, the "Sport" (+ turbo) would probably be a stronger candidate for me.

Moving forward, I have been exploring this car (MINI Cooper) under an assumption that it is fairly reliable. If I am to indeed buy one, my intention is that it would be a daily-drive type of vehicle. As I mentioned in the beginning of thi thread, I drive a lot of daily commute miles (25,000 +) annually. My current track-record with cars has been excellent: 250,000 + on a 1991 Honda Civic (sold), 151,000 on a 2005 Honda CRV [wife's current ride], 261,000 on a 1994 Toyota Camry [my current ride]. I do some of my own basic maintenance and am a believer in keeping clean fluids through-out my cars. My intention with any new car I were to buy would be to get 200-300K miles out of it. Posts such as those by "onefish" seem a bit ominous:

I confess ignorance in this regard. Is it a realistic ambition to put high mileage on a MINI, assuming a pro-active maintenance regimen?

I guess maybe I should start a fresh thread regarding reliability and maintenance costs, since I think that the "S vs. non-S" dichotomy has been largey resolved for the moment.

Thanks again for the replies.

 

The Cooper starts at $19,500, so the others are going to be at least a couple thousand dollars more expensive, and that's assuming an FR-S base price lower than anything I've heard. Also, you conveniently ignored the part about headroom. The MINI is relatively comfortable for rear seat passengers as a result. I have a couple Mustangs and they aren't nearly as comfortable due to the fastback roofline. Also, I've transported the absolute largest air compressor Sears sell in my MINI. Additionally, I've carried an extra set of wheels/tires, plus tools, luggage, cameras, etc, to Sebring in my MINI.

The FR-S looks to be a notable improvement on the Miata and S2K as far as efficiency and practicality, but it's not better than the MINI. Even if it WAS, it's still far too different of a car to suggest no one should buy a Cooper simply because it exists... especially when it isn't even available in the US, doesn't have pricing, and doesn't have mileage estimates.

Obviously we're going to have to agree to disagree, because there's no way you're going to be able to put together a convincing argument that no one looking for a fun, good-handling, practical, efficient car should end up with a Cooper.

 

Congratulations on your decision! You'll be very happy I'm sure. Generally reliability isn't on par with Toyotas and Hondas, but the Cooper is a safer bet than the S. Check out this thread for high mileage Justas:

https://www.northamericanmotoring.co...pers-only.html

 

Your statements regarding the FR-S are more or less all speculation at this point, since it's not even available to the public at this time. I'd also like to see where Toyota/Scion has stated a $21-23k price - last I saw all they'd said is "under $30k". I suspect it will handle quite well, but haven't driven one to give you a real impression. I'd be surprised if the rear seats are particularly usable, as few if any 2 door coupe rear seats are. And I'd be VERY surprised if the interior fit and finish is even close to that of a MINI (the interior styling is definitely sub-par in my opinion, but that's subjective).

All that aside, it's really apples to oranges - one is a "hot hatch" and the other is a sports coupe. Some folks will cross shop the two, but most will not. You'll get more folks cross-shopping the MX-5 and the FR-S, although even that will be limited since the FR-S isn't available as a convertible and the Miata can't be had with a fixed roof.

I myself might consider the Subaru BRZ variant as a second (third if you count the wife's) car once the MINI is paid off (which is fine, since I don't buy first model year anything). My "toy" car is currently a 1st generation Miata. My main area of concern in going from the Miata to something like the FR-S would be the loss of the visceral "feel" the NA Miata provides that even the newer MX-5s don't provide. I'm sure it'll be faster (stock vs. stock), but for me that alone won't necessarily make it more fun to drive.

 

FWIW, Paultergiest, we put a LOT of miles on our Cooper as well, around 20k per year, and haven't had any issues now having eclipsed 60k miles. Of course 60k miles is nowhere near 200k, but I figured I would mention it.

 

You can drive any car 200-300k miles if you are willing to pay what it costs to keep it running. MINIs are not inexpensive to repair, so I would expect there might come a time well short of 200k where you would decide to move on to another car.

On the other hand, hstanfield had 434,000 miles on his Cooper by last June. Search on his id.

 

I just read that thread and there are some posts recently of 225000 miles and of someone who has over 400000 miles! That's awesome! I am looking and I drove just the S. I might want to test drive the Justa and see how it compares. Good luck to the OP and I hope you do get a MINI!

PS I am also interested in seeing the breakdown of Justa sales vs S/JCW sales...anyone know?

 

Congrat's on your decision...you will not be disappointed.

Don't forget that Minis have only been around since '02, that is barely 10 years, so there is not much chance of having many with high milage. I saw my first Toyota in '74 and they sell how many thousands of them in each year? Sure there are going to be a lot Toyotas in the 100k+ club. Not sure that proves anything pro or con relative to the reliability of a Mini.

I am sure that if you go to a Toyota blog you will find that there are people posting about all sorts of problems, just like they do here. Again, is it a true reflection of the car's quality?...no. I like the link above to the forum with the high milage Minis. It is one that talks "good" about the car.


As for the S being reliable or not...I have a friend who tracks his Mini regularly and it just turned 200k, with no major problems or repairs.

I think how well you treat the car will have as much to do with how long it will last as does the car construction. Treat it well and enjoy...

Now comes the really hard part...Picking the color, interior, other options and - most importantly - its name.

Let us know how that all comes out...

 

I agree, you will not be disappointed. I truly love driving mine. I have no regrets with my purchase.