Ken G., and kenbob,

What about contamination in the oil, such as fuel, water, acids, etc.? Do you really think that 20,000+ miles is OK as some MINI OBC's are suggesting?

What do you think about tests like TBN, and TAN?

What would SUS Viscosity @ 210F tell you? How about cSt Viscosity @ 100 C? Or Flashpoint?

 

Ken has written an excellent discription of the SOAP Program above.

In 1980, found a manufacturing defect of a crankshaft oil 'tube' that had extended beyond the rod journal and cut a groove in the rod bearing.

Engine ran fine, but 'made' a lot of bronze, Continental did a warranty replacement of both engines and saved a possible, sudden catastrophic failure.

I have never followed the SOAP Program for our automobiles, but another Aviation Maintenance practice that would involve no cost, would be a visual inspection of your old oil filter.

Unlike the more common enclosed steel canisters, our (MINI) filters are exposed and can easily be cut open and inspected.

After my 'post break-in' 1250 mile change, there was no 'sludge' no ferrous metal attracted to a magnet, just a fine metalic 'sparkle' which I would expect to be aluminum and to be normal for a new engines first oil change.

No analysis done, but there had been a strong odor of gasoline (from prior to the ring seating 'break-in') that has not been smelled since.

 

Spectrometer reading are used to determine the concentration of wear metals. However, most labs that do automotive/truck oil testing will also do a TBN test. If you go over to TDIClub.com and go to the lubrication section, you'll find all kinds of test reports posted and the different items they list. There are a few different labs those guys use but most will give good data. To have meaningful data though, you need an unused oil sample from the new oil put into the crankcase for a baseline reference. After that samples are typically taken at 5K intervals for comparison.

By the way, an interesting finding was that wear metals rose more quickly in the first 1K miles after an oil change than the next 10K. The theory is that the anti-wear additives in new oil take a little time to work. I don't know if that's true or not, but the data did suggest that very frequent changes of oil actually cause more wear than running 10K (or longer, depending on the oil).

One other note: the oil doesn't wear out, the additive package does. That's why over the road trucks often go 50K miles between changes, or sometimes no change ever. They sample every 5K, change the filters frequently, and rely on the replacement oil from topping off to replenish the additives. All of this is on diesel engines which put a lot of soot into the oil. Gasoline engines aren't nearly as hard on lubrication, even turbocharged ones. (All recent diesels are turbocharged.)

In any case, changing the oil before it's necessary is a waste of money and resources. The Mini has an oil monitoring system built in. I don't know if it's based on viscocity, opacity, or simply calculated duty cycle, but it's a lot more accurate than you looking at the oil or rubbing it between you fingers.

 

I'll have to look into the TBN test, I'm not familiar with that. If they're using an unused oil as a baseline, then they're going in the right direction for a true oil condition test. Thanks for letting me know about it.

I know the MINI's oil change "thing" monitors more than simply mileage. My MCS has been changing the "mileage to next change" up and down depending on how hard I'm driving.

 

There has been some debate on exactly what the OBC does to calculate oil change interval. IIRC, the most authoritative seemed to indicate is all done on driving characteristics. Some say it is mainly based on mpg numbers. Others have suggested length of trip, average speed, and things like that. No one has found a part that actually monitors the oil itself.

Based on the Blackstone test I had done (paid extra for TBN) I could see pushing it to 10,000 miles, but 8,000 seemed like a better number. I can't see going 20,000+ miles (as my OBC suggested) as safe.

I've heard the claim that "wear metals rose more quickly in the first 1K miles after an oil change than the next 10K" but not seen the data to back it up. However, the idea "the data did suggest that very frequent changes of oil actually cause more wear" seems to be jumping to conclusions.

If this was done after a long-interval oil change, another explanation could be that the detergents in the oil wore out before the previous oil change was done. When the new oil, with fresh detergents, was introduced, it disolved deposits left by the previous oil.

For the "topping up" to be effective in renewing the additives, the car would have to be burning or leaking sufficient amounts of oil. One would have to be adding enough new oil to handle the additive requirements of the engine. My 2007 MCS doesn't lose much oil.

 

When I said "frequent changes", I meant on the order of every 2-3K, but even I'm not sure if the data is valid. This was from samples taken at 1K intervals on multiple vehicles. A lot of variable come into play though. There might have been a change in the type of oil used, or possibly the fact that all the oil gets drained during a change causes high wear on initial dry startup. (I know, there should be enough oil clinging to the bearings to prevent this. I'm just brainstorming.)

In any case, I've never sampled my oil. I always figured it was cheaper to change the oil at the TDI recommended 10K rather than paying $25 to sample on the hopes of going another 5K.

You make my point though by saying you had a sample analyzed. However, one sample doesn't tell anything. It's the rate at which the wear metals increase that's important. The time to change the oil is when the rate stops being linear, and this requires frequent sampling. The scientific approach is for several people to change their oil, get an unused oil analysis (UOA), and then sample at some frequency to determine when the best time to change the oil is. A comparison to the car's computer would be interesting.

 

Following the MINI recommendation (OBC alert, or one year), means 15,000 to 22,000 or more, if you drive that much in a year. However, a few dealers are resisting the annual oil change. So, some people could end up going over a year.

Few people on NAM are going by the 3,000 mile interval typical for non-synthetic oils. The popular increments seem to be 5,000 to 8,000 miles. Some of these people are tracking their cars.

 

Wow! Some of you people simply amaze me. 15,000 - 20,000 miles on 4.5 quarts of oil???!?!?!??! With a turbo?!??!?!?!?!?!?! That's asinine! Even Mercedes doesn't recommend that long and their motors hold over 9 quarts of oil…with no turbos! Why is a Honda 100,000 mile extended warranty $800 while a MINI 100,000 extended warranty is $2800? Because they expect most people to follow the actuarial table-based recommended service intervals of the MINI which has virtually no basis in proper vehicle maintenance and will cost a ton of money in repairs after the factory warranty period is over.
Anywhoo...

I just changed my 2009 MCS today at 1275 with Redline 5w-30. No gas smell, not particularly dirty, no visible metal particles. But there is a noticeable difference in the engine. It spools faster, runs much smoother. There is basically no resistance inside the engine now. Cost me $45 for the oil and $11 something for the filter. Took 5 minutes not including drain time (let it drain while I ate dinner). It was actually fun getting to know the engine layout better. Now I'm ready to change out the intercooler charge pipe, inlet tube, maybe replace the intercooler...

Get to know your car. It’s time well spent.

-C

 

I'm not a tree hugger, but changing oil every 1200 miles or every 3000 miles is simply a waste of resources. That includes financial resources. Can 4.5 quarts of oil in a turbocharged engine last 15-20K miles? I don't know. it depends on the duty cycle of the engine and the oil. Remember, oil doesn't break down over any period of time or miles, only the additives. In any case, most people who run extended drain intervals do change the filter every 10K miles. Keeping particulates out of the oil is critical to longevity of the engine.

The point is that gut feel in vehicle maintenance has more to do with what you've been told your whole life than what is scientifically valid. One thing that is certain is that the oil will lose lubricating properties after some number of miles. However, that number is much higher than most people would believe. If you change your oil every 10K in a small turbo engine with only 4.5 quart capacity, your expected engine life won't be any shorter than changing it every 3000 miles. Now 20K? I wouldn't be comfortable with that without sampling and filter changes. Quite frankly if I'm going to do all that, I'll just change the oil at 10K and rest easy.

 

Here's a thought: as the oil filter catches contaminates, it gets clogged. A clogged filter restricts the flow of oil, which increases overall engine oil pressure. It would be easy for the Mini's computer to monitor this pressure rise; could that be part of the Mini's oil change criteria? Could the limiting criteria be the filter and not the oil? I don't know...

To answer an earlier question, SUS is Saybolt Universal Seconds. It's an older technique to measure oil viscosity by heating a sample of oil to a certain temperature and timing how fast it will flow through a orifice of a certain size. Basically, it's measuring it's resistance to flow and 210 degrees is one of the standard tempuratures used for this test.

"cSt" is an abbreviation for a "centistoke" which is the unit of measurement when expressing the kinematic (moving) viscosity of an oil. This is determined by taking the oil's absolute (or dynamic) viscosity and dividing that by its density. Dynamic viscosity is measured in units called "centipoises" and that's a measurment of the oil's sheer stress and shear rate; as determined by placing some oil on a testing surface and sliding another surface along the oil under controlled conditions, standard test temperatures are 40 degrees C and 100 C (104 F and 212 F). This is generally considered a more accurate measurement of lubrication qualities than the Saybolt method.

I haven't thought about this stuff since my last final exam in college in 1991, so it's a good review.

One last thing: I would agree with you that 20,000 miles seems way too long, but for me, that belief is based on subjective experience, rather than objective information, at least as far as the Mini's engine goes. There are other engines that I would go no longer than 100 hours/3000 to 5000 miles between oil changes. It all depends on the engine and oil used, and the oil change data given to me by the engine manufacturer.

 

What a great web site this is. I used all of the information on this thread to help me do my first oil change on my 08 Clubman S and it went without any problems thanks to the info I leant on this site. I even had to reference this site to find out how much oil the engine holds as the Mini manual does not even contain this information anywhere. Boy, Mini really does not want you to perform this (or any other) service on your own. I guess it's all about the $$$$. Thanks again.

 

Many thanks to all the posters on this thread. Just completed my post break-in oil change. All of the input really helped me and it was accomplished with relative ease.

Couple of issues/observations:

1. Moving the coolant reservoir...Everyone said to just remove the one hex screw and pull it up and move it over. I encountered resistance and took me few minutes to realize that there is a "nipple" on the side of the tank. If you grab the tank from the top and pull up with your fingers, it will dislodge from it's connecting point....then lift up and move it out of the way.

2. Oil from the filter housing....I removed the oil cap, cracked open the filter housing (several turns) and then removed the plug. I let it drain for over an hour. When I fully removed the filter housing, I still had several ounces of oil spill. Some people have stated that no oil spilled from the filter housing. How was that accomplished? Did I not wait long enough?

3. My drain plug was 8mm Hex....not sure if a T50 Torx would also fit.

Other than that, it was simple...and I would give myself a 3 out of 10 in mechanical ability.

Cost: MINI oil 5 x $6.20, Filter $12, 1 1/16" socket $9, set of metric Hex wrenches $11 (my old ones only went up to 6MM), set of extensions for my ratchet (10", 5", 3") $13 (used the 5" + 3" as 10" was too long)
Total = $76
Savings -vs- cost at my local BMW dealer: $160 - $76 = $84
Cost of future oil changes = $43

I used to change the oil in my car when I was a poor college student. Since then (almost 25 years) I've taken my cars to (insert company name here) for oil changes. At $30 or so it simply was not worth my time. I feel a different bond with this car and I don't want just anyone working on it. Just like I will not take it through an automatic car wash.

Pampering my baby = Priceless!

 

On Filter Cannister; I unscrewed it completely, but did not lift it until the next morning and not a drop was spilled.

On my drain plug, T-50 was a loose fit and 8mm Hex was a perfect fit;
the 1&1/16" and 27mm sockets are the same size.

 

I just did my second oil change yesterday. I did the first at 1200 and this one at 6200. This one went much smoother than the last one, where I dripped oil all over the place when I removed the filter canister. This time I put paper towels all around the canister before I opened it. I was VERY careful when I lifted the canister/filter out.

Good for another 5K of motoring.

 

+1... I always wrap a wrag around the base of the filter housing, just in case.

 

Is the dealer the only place I can get a filter for an 09 MCS? I haven't had any luck at the local auto parts stores. Little help please....

 

You can order them online.

http://www.bavauto.com/fland.asp?par...07%20557%20012

 

Thanks for the tip Rippymcs. Got a few on the way...

 

+1 thanks for tips - this was the easiest oil change I've done in my life. Here's a new vs used oil pic after 5,000 miles on the Mini... the discoloration is normal, and the oil actually was much better than I thought it would be, but still very glad I changed it, and will continue to do so about every 5k-8k miles.

 

Just changed my 2007 MINI S oil at 10,600 miles (20 months old) with no problems. I didn't discover this forum until a week later, at which point transmission slipping problems began at start-up.

Facts:
1) used genuine oil filter kit from MINICARPARTS
2) tried to buy Mobil 1, but was all out - substituted Royal Purple 5W-30
3) drained original dirty black oil resting on Rhinoramps for 3 hours (did not measure how much came out - assumed it was 4 qts.)
4) after replacing oil filter & drain plug, poured all 5 qts of Royal Purple in, never checking the oil stick.
5) at first drove great, but within 6 days & 300 miles, the transmission started slipping at start-up.
6) discovered this forum, learning the importance of only adding 4.2-4.5 qts.
7) opened the plug & drained .8 quarts, all Royal Purple.
8) on a 40 mile freeway test drive yesterday, slipping problems have worsened & check engine light came on
9) checked oil level, which still appears high - 3" above max line
10) tried to drain more oil from plug, but only a few drops came out, with some tiny, tiny debris

Now it is parked - only option I think I have is getting a siphon pump to extract whatever it takes to get the oil level below the max line, then having it towed for service. I could also loosen the oil filter to help the oil drain but hate to break the O-ring.

MINIs are not very user-friendly for maintenance, & getting dealer help is not much better.
Last May I had a problem whith my turn signals & took it in for service (after a 3 week wait). I tried to get the oil changed, but with only 5,000 miles the service rep said I'm good to go until 19,000 miles, according to the OBC. I said fine, I'll pay for it, as it is 13 months old. But after a 4 day wait it never got done, & I was just glad to get my car back.

Any ideas on what technically went wrong? Could an extra .8 quarts for 300 miles cause transmission slipping problems? If oil level is 3" > max line, why will no more drain out from the oil pan?

Regardless, do not underestimate the importance of adding only 4.2 qts & checking your oil stick to stay below the max line.

 

I am surprised at your dealer because you are entitled to a free oil change when the OBC says or 1 year, whichever comes first. If you only have 2,000 miles left on OBC, but are at 1 year, they will change the oil and then do it again in 2,000 miles. You need to have a talk with them for trying to con you out of a service you have paid for when you bought the car. 13 months is 2 months late of when they should have changed your oil for free

 

DO NOT DRIVE YOU CAR ANY MORE. Have it towed to a mechanic. From what you describe, it sounds to me like you drained your transmission fluid and not your engine oil. You now have about 5 quarts too much oil in your engine and your transmission has no lubrication at all. The transmision drain plug and the engine drain plug are relatively close to each other and I think you pulled out the wrong one.

I hope I'm wrong.

Good luck,
-C

 

I can see how you might think that.

I was on left driver's side, draining from the black oil pan next to the sticker. What originally came out was dark black, like the picture above.

When I redrained .8 quarts, it was the new purple Royal Purple. This is my 4th different vehicle to change the oil on, so I have the basics down. At least there are no skid plates to deal with on MINIs.

& when I say slip, I put it in Reverse & it barely moves (like slow-motion), & giving it gas causes the MINI to lurch. Same going forward.

I wonder if any mechanic shop can look at it, or am I better just waiting on making a dealer appointment?

Just tried Momentum MINI - after 30 rings I had to leave a message to make an appointment.
Feels like it is easier to potty-train a puppy than to get MINI dealer service.

I'm throwing in the towel - I'll post the results so that others will not repeat whatever the heck I did wrong.

 

On mine, engine oil drain is more toward the passenger side.

The drain plug towards the driver side has a sticker= ['Lifetime Transmission Fluid'] (mine is automatic).

It is aproximately two quarts between the ferrules on my dipstick, so 3" may be four to five quarts high.

I would have it towed to a nearby 'import' Garage with a good local MINI/Mini Reputation,
if you go to a MINI Dealer it is just going to cost you a fortune to find out about "No Warranty Support" for this problem.

Check with your 'Local' MINI/Mini club (should have a forum as well) to find that Local Garage.

If you have an automatic, surprised that it would move at all if missing four quarts but a half full Torque Converter might cause a lot of 'slip'.

Overfilled engine sump could loosen a lot of sludge to block drain, if it is now the correct drain.

 

break the oil filter o ring? how do you break it? This is that rubber ring we are talking about right?

During my last diy oil change, i prematurely unscrewed the filter cap off and had oil spill all over my garage floor. In a rush, i dont think i properly tightened my filter cap. I took it for a spin and i smelled burning rubber and thought it was the oil that i previously spilled. I looked outside and there was a nice trail of oil on the parking lot. It wasnt until i heard some bad knocking that the low oil indicator finally turned on.

why oh why didnt the low oil indicator come on sooner? It shouldnt take a near engine death experience for the car to realize that there is something wrong...