I have questions!

So I just looked under our R59 Cooper S and to my surprise there is no belly pan! Since this car is going to be driving in the snow I've always been a huge fan of having the engine bay protected from salt and slush. We have one on our other car and it as really been good for the engine bay.

Is this normal the car doesn't come with some standard plastic belly pan?
Does this one from this post fit a R59 Cooper S, as opposed to the JCW style housing?
https://www.northamericanmotoring.co...2-post629.html

What's the reason for the underside venting? Is it needed?

Is there any issue with this belly pan on a none lowered Cooper S (looking at the overlap with suspension components)?


Are there other choices? This looks like it is made of some composite that could make it more expensive than what I might need but I'm not oppose to it

Thank you for any help on this...

 

That belly pan is an aerodynamic device. Smooths the airflow under the car. I'd guess those vents are there to remove heat from the engine bay. Those turbos get very hot. Not sure how that piece will hold up hitting icebergs on winter roads.

Our R55 non-S does just fine with no under-tray in the winter. It is a daily driver.

Outmotoring sells a skid plate you might look at that.

http://www.outmotoring.com/alloy-sum...ield-gen2.html

 

From the factory the only MINI that comes with the front belly pan is the JCW GP 2 , which we made a kit with all the hardware to fit certain MINIs. Fits R56 / R55 / R57 / R58 / R59 all models, with all MINI factory bumper options. The factory GP 2 belly pan ( splash guard ) is new to the MINI world but a version of this has been used on other euro cars for some year. The MINI one in my opinion looking one of the best developed. *The Countryman and Paceman have there own, which we also found on the Euro Countryman JCW and fits certain models on those platforms.

Now back to the JCW GP 2 Belly Pan kit. We included all the additional hardware to install this ( which you will not find on the MINI parts diagram ). We did the work for you.

The materiel of the GP 2 belly pan ( splash pan is very impressive its a plastic mold with a Kevlar looking material mesh embedded in the plastic , for additional support and durability, pretty cool looking. As I have been running this longer then people had there GP 2 's the additional venting is used to pull air to certain locations (cooling and such ). MINI used this for wind tunnel testing. While protecting and smoothing the under-body. Its easy to unscrew for oil changes and with our kit the little speed screw stay in place ( ie don't drop to the floor ) , so the pan on removal stay intact.

I noticed a cleaner bottom engine bay on top of the clean look. Lowered or not it works on both platforms as it was designed for the GP 2 , which is lowered a bit.

ECS Tuning JCW GP 2 Belly Pan Kit * Additional speed screws and hardware included for installation. *


http://www.ecstuning.com/Search/SiteSearch/51757330566KT/ES2642513/








Here is a video from MINI of some GP 2 parts, very cool .

Aerodynamics :



Engineered :




There are other video, just follow MINIs page.

Thanks and hope that helps.

 

@ ashchuckton: Thanks for the feedback? Yes I'm sure it is alright for the most part but we'd like to keep this car for the long run so I do have a tendency to over baby my cars so they stay immaculate for ever

@ ECSTuning:
So just to confirm, this design fits a regular cooper S, and an R59 at that, just the same as JCW/GP right? Keeping in mind the front bumper and some of the performance engine parts being different I presume...

I do like having all the hardware.

 

Your welcome.

Yep, we did that leg work with the hardware and fitment. The MINI parts diagram don't show it . Will fit your model. And the JCW. GP 2 ( which it was on ).

The belly pan connects to the front tabs on the core support ( with our additional hardware ) , so it does not matter what bumper you have check the install shots out above. They help you see how it fits. Then see what your looks like. Read the description , you just take off your little side ( passenger side pan ) and install.

For performance parts , as long as you have things stock and nothing protruding from the bottom , you should have no problems. This set pretty low and lines up (level wise ) with just above the lip on the JCW front bumper I have in the pics. Others installed had no problems.

Thanks

 

I know it's going to sound weird but how bad would it be to cover those vents just during the winter months? It's not that I'll be pushing the car much when it starts snowing here, on the other hand going up a snowy hill can make the engine work a little harder some time... I'm just curious. Again my biggest concerned in the winter is the salt.

I would not keep it closed during the warmer season and I'd be happy with the extra aerodynamics during the sunny days

In any case I'm probably going to order something once I'm back from a trip over seas... in a week and a half or so.

 

No problem , I would keep them as they are, to make sure the air flow is correct. I have taken mine off and wiped the bottom ouside surface of it and it comes clean very easy and wiped the bottom off while on the rack. It does not collect much dirt ( being the plastic / mesh materiel is very good and smooth ( mostly deflects ) as most of the surface area is flat and the air from the front section comes down through the vent from the radiator then back. All in all its very clean.

Once you see it in person you will see the quality , I really liked it.


Good luck and have a nice trip. I am running mine all the time with no problem.

 

Sent you a PM...

 

Got it. Thanks.

 

I imagine the airflow design of the vents and scoops would keep air and any kind of dirt moving and not allowing it to get in, collect, and settle up in there. I wouldn't be too worried myself, personally.

 

I've had the belly pan since it was released. Have had it on and off for a few oil changes. I can't tell you how nice this is and the price is much less than I expected it to be.

 

I wish I could see things the way you think but knowing a lot about product development I know this seems extremely expensive to my eyes.
Face it people, it's just a big piece of plastic It probably cost, idk, $40/50 to manufacture, top. Everything else is retail and profit . . . of course there's a little product development time that needs to be accounted for but it is still expensive. Everything MINI parts seem to be.

But, that's just the way things are and I do need it soooo . . . I'm going to go ahead

 

The Belly Pan will fit fine with any of the bumpers JCW or Not, we've installed and sold several for the R58 and R59 and they have all fit perfect. I wouldn't worry about the winter as it shouldn't effect it at all.

 

Will it fit a '13 Justa hardtop?

 

I'm happy mini sold this product. On my other car the belly pan cost $580.00 and I was happy at that price.

 

Automatic?

 

You really think the R&D done on the GP's aero underbody panels is worthless?

You think manufacturing fiberglass impregnanted plastic panels is simple and cheap? Some products are FAR over priced on these cars(like every aftermarket intake or exhaust), but this right here is a bargain. Find a performance designed underbody panel for damn near ANY other car and let me know the price.

 

I was actually surprised how reasonable the price is.

 

Yes. See this thread about the automatic and its noted on our item in the description as well. As we were the first to test, bring this to market w/ the hardware and fit this on other MINIs.

https://www.northamericanmotoring.co...ml#post3840785

Thanks

 

a lot of people fail to realize just how much engineering goes into even the simplest of things.......and they also fail to realize just how much engineering actually costs.

a good estimate to use is it takes ~$160 per engineer/ hour.......

now for something like this belly pan, i would estimate it would take 5-6 engineers a good 12-15hrs each to do everything from design, modeling, drafting, flow analysis, ect....thats ~$14K in engineering alone (and that number is EXTREMELY conservative).....it could easily be 2-3x that amount. that $14K is then factored into the cost of the part so the company can recoup their money.

and thats not even taking into account prodiction and tooling costs.

your right, that part probably only uses $40 worth of materials......but when you factor in the fact that you need to pay someone to make it....it probably costs $100-120 to actually make.

the reason parts for honda civics are so cheap is because there are MILLIONS of Civic owners looking for parts, and the parts have been made for decades.....so a lot of that engineering/ tooling costs is divided over the vast number of people over a long time.

the reason parts for MINIs are so expensive is because there are relatively few people looking for parts and they are a relatively new car.....so you are bearing the brunt of the engineering/ tooling costs.

 

Well I may have exaggerated a little but truthfully you guys are over thinking the R&D on the belly pan. No I don’t think the R&D done on the GP's aero underbody panels is worthless . . . but really I don’t think there was much aerodynamic work done on the pan itself. They pretty much slap a cover as close and flat to the engine as they could, avoiding any big air pocket and got the result they needed. If anything there was more work done to make it fit the car underside geometry as tight as possible and place the proper venting not to negate engine performance. With computer modeling already available it probably wasn't too hard. I've done more complicated stuff. But I doubt there is a lot of aerodynamic work done on the belly pan itself. I’m sure the rear diffuser was more of a factor and most of the GP aerodynamic R&D work was more concentrated to the exterior body geometry and on the rear spoiler… it doesn't negate the usefulness of the splash guard by any means!

Secondly fiber glass plastics are not that big of a deal and it’s hard to tell from the picture but I think in this case the fibers are more on the surface to prevent it from cracks under impact. What makes these parts more expensive is the low quantities and why they seem to have used fiber glass film from the picture possibly using vacuum formed or pressure formed as opposed to fiber glass filled plastic injected wish would have been more affordable. Unfortunately amortizing the tool would have probably been tricky on this possibly low production. I agree that the fiber glass is probably an extra cost and well worth it.

Overall you are correct in that this is not badly priced in comparison to other splash guard I've seen AND for something that actually fits just right. I've seen so many sheet metal splash guard completely overpriced, it’s ridiculous sometime... I just know too much to feel great about how expensive these parts are sold for but as long as people are willing to spend the money I’m sure it’s good business. I don’t feel quite as enthusiastic about the cost as you guys are. Sorry I can’t help it, I’m leaving the product development everyday and I know where the money goes… FIY, the standard for an average retail product is usually about 50%. That has always been hard for me to swallow…

 

Well, you're preaching the priest. I do know exactly what you are talking about and yes this is more like a 20-30k effort from start to finish, possibly more...

I'm in the mist of product development so I know what it cost. But this piece isn't heavy engineering, seriously. Even if your talking about 3 to 6 weeks of engineering work, that won't be a tone of money invested in comparison to how many will sale in the life of the product. You sale a few thousand and you're talking about just a few dollars on the overall price. Tooling is sometime a bigger deal, I agree, though this is more likely a low run, possibly soft tooling (aluminum), so yeah it can be expensive for low runs, but I expect splash guard will sale quite well and will out do the investment costs by a good margin. But I don't have the inside sale information so I could be totally wrong...

Anyway, I didn't mean to start a debate here or to undermine the product. I was just stating that to "me", with the knowledge I have, I found these parts expensive. But I also understand the game. The american buyers are often so willing to consume for things they really want that it's just the way things are. It's alright . . . plus working with enthusiastic and helpful people, even from the vendor side here, as some value in itself!

 

I don't understand how a BUSINESS profiting from their product is always the devil to some people. It's great that you seem to say you're in the development industry, and have some sort of vast knowledge of what it takes and what it costs to produce these parts. But at the same time, let's say it does only cost 50% of the asking price to produce the product. It's then shipped off to whatever dealer or retailer it's being sold at (no that's not free for anyone), and then they need to make a profit or a product. Why is that last part such a big deal to some people?

Granted, $800-2000 for a nearly straight piece of stainless pipe and a basic packed/straight through muffler I'll argue all day is an absolute rip off, but that's supply and demand.

You can't compare a decent composite piece to those clip on sheet metal protective pans. This is a full cover mainly there for aerodynamic reasons more than anything else. There are some vents there for cooling but for the most part, it's supposed to be as flat and smooth as possible. The rear diffuser is nearly pointless without a good belly pan and the center section connectors. They all work together to reduce drag and create downforce. You may be in the development business, but have you ever looked deeply into race car design, aerodynamic properties, and how parts like this work? You'd be surprised just how much of a difference can be made and just how much work goes into designing the under panels of a car. AT LEAST as much as their splitters, spoilers and wings and all for the same reasons.

The sheet metal pans people bolt onto their cars are 100% for protective reasons. Not in any way the same.


Either way, with all my ranting over now lol... I can't see these products being a much better value. Again, MANY cars have products like this available at much higher costs, eve some of the heavy metal ones that aren't even of aerodynamic value cost more in some cases. The belly pan is a factory piece, places like ECS offer all factory hardware, and they're built and designed to work seamlessly with the other underbody panels available, ALSO priced lower than I would expect, to produce aerodynamic benefits typically you ca only reap by driving a race car.

 

No I did not say profiting from their business is the devil, and No I did not say I have a "vast" knowledge . . . just enough to know some things about product development (just naturally defending my position with information as to why I said what I said).

And again I did not say there is no value to the aerodynamic benefits the cover provides... as stated in my other post... simply that $260 for a relatively simple plastic cover (YES, it is a relatively simple plastic cover) + shipping (in my case it wasn't bad at all) still "feels" expensive to me. Yet, I just bought it so it's not that I don't appreciate the value it brings on many levels.

Yes I would be really surprised how much work might have gone in designing the underside pan and if I'm wrong I'll have learn something new

I agree with you that the metal splash guard do not typically provide aerodynamic value but rather a protective purpose.

btw, you're stainless steel pipe in proportion is a lot more undervalued when you take into account what the real energy and man power foot print involved world wide is, than your actual piece of plastic. But that's just how the world spin. It is one of those things people don't realize are not paying the full price. That is changing as the demand grows.

 

Yes you can put it on the Non S, but like the S you will still want to trim it for the AT trans

http://www.waymotorworks.com/gp2-bel...undertray.html