I have seen that test. The thing that surprised me was the really low tire pressures. The pressures they gave were hot pressures. Those pressures were lower than what I start out with cold and the car is hardly controllable. I generally run about 38 hot on the MINI. So, I wonder how applicable that test was to a FWD car. Also that test was aimed at autocross. But, in the end I am thinking it really said there wasn’t that much difference between the 2 tires, unless you are looking for a national championship. That said, I am looking forward to the test that the Tyre Review guy on YouTube says he will be performing on 200 TW tires as he will be on the track.

 

lots of slow drivers doing champ car. I had a student this past weekend we cut his lap time by 2 seconds on VIR full and he was in a 911c2s with 50 hp less than the 911 turbo he ran before. He's pretty fast but Nobody else on his team has ever had an instructor and they are very slow

those endurance teams do not push to grip limits anywhere or they run out of tire

 

Agreed on all points. Also on the tire pressure being low (maybe rwd + lighter car + perfect camber, but even then I'd think 32, not 28)

 

https://grassrootsmotorsports.com/ar...00tw-showdown/
It now says that it holds up after several laps, go figure!

 

You are spot on about having an instructor in the car...
Even for advanced drivers it can help. You never know what you might learn.

The article is not yet available for open viewing... But one of the comments was interesting. That is, the A052 seems to best for autocross and the Hankook is best for endurance racing. That is what I have been hearing.

 

Oh man, where was that video before I bought the tires @Eddie07S

To be fair, I was overdriving them and like a doofus and I rotated them front to back instead of left to right. I totally forgot that they are not directional. So naturally, the left side is looking a little worn. I'll go ahead and put those on the right side for Road Atlanta and see how it goes. I bought another set of Hypergram to put the Hankooks on, so I will do back-to-back comparisons. The only real difference between the two is the size (225 45zr17 vs 215 45r17, both mounted to 17x8). Another thing that was brought to my attention was the weather conditions. The Hankooks were faster (with a broken turbo, a less than optimal exhaust, a poor alignment, and damper settings) in January. In May the car was set up better, but it was 50 degrees hotter and the humidity was way up. I wouldn't be surprised if the Toyos outperform the RS4 when weather and platform are equal. We'll see in 9 days.

A while back I followed your advice and matched the DTC-60s front and rear. This is a good combination and the fronts probably only have a couple more weekends in them if that. Looks like Carbotec or G-Loc are next.

I'm sure you're right about the cross weight and the adjustable endlinks. I do have adjustable front and rear and I followed the .PDF from Detroit Tuned for adjusting the endlinks, but there is always room for improvement. It makes sense to me that the endlinks would allow more fine-tuning of the corner weights, but I won't know for sure until I pony up for a set of scales.

Re: Tire pressures - At my previous time at RRR (January) with the RS4, my goal was 34 hot. I touched base with a really experienced MINI race driver that uses the same tires and he suggested 30 psi hot. Following his advice shaved nearly 3 seconds off of my lap. With the R888Rs I followed Toyo's guidance (Toyo Setup) and shot for 28-40 hot, starting at (cold) 27 F and 30 R. This resulted in LF: 38 RF: 36 LR: 37 RR: 35. (yes, those pressures should have been a clue when it came time to rotate the tires ) I played around with cold and warm pressures for the rest of the weekend and just couldn't get them to a happy place. When they felt good, there was too much rollover, when they felt not so good, the rollover was nearly perfect. Again, I've got to say that I am so happy that the mechanical side of things went so well and I was able to spend my downtime on tires and suspension instead of playing "find the boost leak". I believe the Toyos need less pressure. At RA I will shoot for 30 hot and see where I land.

@yargk I'm on the fence about the RE-71R. I know another MINI guy that uses them for track days and has nothing but good things to say. But I can't get past the AX reputation of the tire. I think that the Falken RT615K+ are probably next on my list for a "rain" tire that can be used on the street occasionally between events. Tires are such a gamble because a lot of it really comes down to the individual.

I still haven't put the car on a dyno, but I may try to sneak that in at Road Atlanta. NASA has one on-site for the race cars, so maybe I can sneak in lol.

Man, there was a lot to respond to here. I really love the discussions and information sharing that happens on NAM.

Thanks for the input guys

 

I saw your post about having bought the R888Rs and thought - Oh Crap. I had already seen that video as I follow the guy who does those, but I didn’t want to ruin your day. Plus I thought it was a great opportunity to get an unbiased review of them. If they had turned out well for you I wouldn’t have said a thing. The thing I found about the R888s was on the street they felt fantastic. On the track, not so much.

The tires are a crap shoot, as you say. I am finding I can only learn just so much by taking to people, reading and watching reviews. The rest is taking a gamble on my own. Also, in this day it seems that a tire design only lasts for a few years, then something comes along to dethrone it and it is off to find the next one that is the best...

I have used the Carbotech XP10s and loved them. I have a friend who went from the XP10s to the XP12s and liked them better than the XP10s. So the 12s would be my recommendation.

I have been running the DTC60 for a while now on the rear brakes of my R56 and have matched them with the DTC60s and the Wilwood Poly H up front and it has worked well with either front pad. I would see no reason to not keep the DTC60 in the rears if you want.



This is really interesting.

I guess I have to say I have not been that brave to drop tire pressures below 37 psi hot on any of the tires I have used. Maybe it is because I have little camber up front and they get to be rolling over on the side walls. The rears get squirrelly also and I have plenty of camber back there (may still not enough?).

 

Scotty - Hope you don’t mind some more tire discussion...

Conti's coming out with a new 200TW tire. Had no idea they and Hoosier were in cahoots At first glance it looks like one more ZIII/RE71R/RT660 knockoff at least in the tread......

https://rennlist.com/forums/racing-a...rack-tire.html

The interesting thing about this tire is that it is specifically designed for track use and endurance racing. And it is designed to dethrone the Hankook and BF G Rival. However, I will note, with Hoosier involve it is a really expensive in comparison to other 200TW tires.

 

Conti bought Hoosier about 5 years ago:
Continental Acquires Hoosier Racing Tire Corporation

 

Im wondering if you have any issues with oil starvation on the track. I plan on tracking my mini in about two years and as of right now whenever i take a turn (more than 90 degrees) very hard a low oil pressure warning will pop up for a few seconds. My dad tracks a cayman and he has a deeper oil pan to prevent oil starvation, as i see you track your car so i want to know if you’ve ever had this problem. Thank you.

 

1st Post! Welcome to NAM!

What year is your MINI and how many miles on it?

I am sure Scotty will also chime in on this. But, Here are my 2 cents. Unless you have a faulty low pressure switch, I would say you have an engine issue. This is assuming that you have checked the oil level and it is full. By full I mean, the oil level is just slightly up over top bulge on the dip stick. This is where it will be when you change the oil and filter and add the required 4.5 qts of 5 w 30 or 5 w 40 oil.

I have tracked MINIs with the N14 and N18 R56 engines and neither has given me a low oil pressure warning. In both cases the engines were completely stock. I have, however, seen other NAM postings with this being an issue. You might want to do a Google search about this. You might find something. Just add “North American Motoring” to your search to get NAM results.

Scotty?

 

I'll echo Eddie. That sounds like the oil is not actually full, or a faulty sensor. Leaning towards the oil being low.

Welcome to NAM!

 

Here are a couple laps around Road Atlanta on a Saturday afternoon:



Overall, the weekend went well. I need to work on threshold braking for sure. Since the DTC-60s are pretty much done, I'm going to look at G-Loc for my next event. We were only allocated 9 twenty-minute sessions, and for the most part, we got them.
The new turbo worked great all weekend, and considering that it took a real beating at Roebling two weeks ago, I'd say I'm impressed.

I managed to get onto the dyno in between the racecars getting certified. I'm sitting at 245.43 WHP and 243 ft-lbs of torque. I absolutely need to carve out time to get this tuned properly.

Oh yeah, I almost forgot, I got moved up to DE3, so the next stop is Time Trial. I have three definite events and one maybe left for this year, so I could see making the next jump before January.













Flatout through T9, boost gauge pretty well pegged. Probably should shift up right before 9.

 

Those are some healthy numbers! You're working with Lou, right?

And, those fog lights looks pretty cool on the track

 

The fog lights are so rad!
Lou and I have talked quite a bit, but between track time and work-related travel, I haven't been able to follow through. I'm in an odd position now that I know the true weight and power of the car. I have to be careful to not put myself in a TT class where I will be totally uncompetitive. However, I really, really, really want 300 WHP . That said, every time I take this to the track, people approach me in the paddock to ask what it has under the hood. The cars are rare track cars in the US, and no one expects a MINI to be as capable as it is. I love it lol.

 

Always like your pictures. Someone does really well with the camera and shooting cars on the track.

I like the video. Seems like you are getting wheel spin? That much HP in a FWD could be rough to handle. You seemed to be doing well with it. What tires were you on in the video? I see the pictures of the R888Rs, along with the Hankooks.

For what it is worth, here is an interesting perspective on driving FWD.

[/QUOTE]

From what I gathered from this video, it seems that us FWD drivers could be being mislead by instructors who learned on RWD. Something I found to be interesting.

As for threshold braking, I know that is the conventional wisdom and you know me, I don’t subscribe to conventional wisdom. I am going to suggest that may be less useful in most cases when driving a MINI. For one, I find it really upsets the balance of the car (rear end dance). Another is there is a tendency to over brake. It makes trail braking less precise. I am not wearing out pads any where near as quickly as I used too; I am braking less. Ok, just my experience.

You will find that the G-Loc/Carbotech pads to have less of the on-off switch nature of the DTC-60. They will seem “softer”. (Sorry they are not soft, but that is the only word I could think of). Where they shine (out shine other pads) is in control and their linear nature. You should find that what I suggested above will be really easy with them.

A question about your line through the chicane after T1. You are a ways off the apex of each of the turns. Is that by design? I would have thought it could be straightened out a bit by touching the curbs like you do in the last 2 turns before the front straight.

And congrats on moving up, Iron Man (180 min of driving... ). Glad your car is doing well, too...

 

Thanks, Eddie. I always appreciate your insight. I'm pretty lucky to have a personal photographer that follows me to every event and then follows me back home . I'll pass along your praise!

I think my line could definitely use some tweaks. I feel the fastest way through T3 is to cut it short and get a little air over the kerbs. I could definitely clean up T1 and retain more speed into T2. It's a learning process for sure, and I am continuing to evolve. I got some great advice today about just staying 4th as I come out of T5. That downshift was a habit I developed when trying to compensate for the bad turbo, now I have to unlearn it. Sort of a training scar.

I will have to give G-Loc a call and get something on order soon. I'm planning on retaining the DTC-60 rear pads until they're gone. What do you recommend to pair with them?

I was on Hankook Ventus RS4 (225/45r17) in the video. I rant a few sessions with R888Rs (215/45) but I just didn't like them. I was probably overdriving them, but they would get really greasy after two laps. They were also quite a bit slower.

 

I have a cousin does photography (and is very fast on the track in his M2) and I understand from him how difficult it is to get good shots of cars on the track... So I can really appreciate what your personal photographer is doing.



I went looking for an IMSA video that would be a good example of driving through the esses. But this popped up, and it I think it is about a good as it gets as a walk through for this:


Note that he even points out a car that is about a foot off the apex as something to not do...

One thing, I know HPDE instructors harp on “eyes up”. That is really important for novice drivers so they learn to see the bigger picture. However, this may be something to temper (and maybe unlearn) as one becomes better. One of the groups I run with does instruction for high level advanced drivers. In one class room session they showed a video of where a F1 driver’s eyes are looking when they are driving on the track. They did this with a special set of glasses that would follow the eye’s movement. Guess what... They look at the apex of each upcoming turn until the car is at that point, then their eyes look up to the next apex. They follow each apex that way. Interesting... I see this as being similar to HPDE instructors teaching straight line braking to novice drivers; it is safer. But that needs to unlearned as one becomes better and transitions into doing trail braking.

I think in the video above, there are a few places where you will want to watch the apex of your upcoming turn so you precisely set yourself up for what is coming up after that apex.

I used the Carbotech XP 10s when I was a novice and intermediate driver. A friend, a very good advanced driver, transitioned from those to the XP12s and said they were better. I am pretty sure the G-Loc pads have the same numbering... While I think either would work for you, I would suggest the equivalent to the XP12 for you. I see no issues with keeping the DTC 60 pads in the rear. That is what I am doing. I have paired them with the Wilwood Poly H along with DTC 60 up front and they have worked well. They are lasting forever... as you might expect.

Ya, the R888/R888Rs are not the best compared to others these days. Based on the wear, I wouldn’t say you were over driving them. They just are what they are. I had the same experience with the R888s. Those Toyo tires are an old design; good in their day, but they have been surpassed by even the 200TW tires of today.

The Hankooks seemed to be doing well for you. I did hear a bit of squeal from them on a few of the corners, which made me think that was what you were on.

A side note - I just finished a beautiful, 80+ deg day at LRP, running the RE71Rs (205/50x15s) and was really careful with tire pressure. 38 psi hot was about the upper limit. Anything much above that and they would get greasy. Once I got the pressure set, the car would feel great for the full 20 min session. I know that car setup, especially camber, will play into that upper pressure, but I found it interesting that I could make these “autocross” tires work on the track just by watching pressures.

 

Here's another angle of the line:




There is definitely a lot of room to improve, but I feel like it's pretty quick, and if anything, it's fun

I agree with the eyes up comment. I did try experimenting with focal points and I found myself to be faster if I look to where I want to be. Look to apex, shift to next apex as I cross through. If I am looking too far out and shifting my focal point before the apex, I'm just slower, not as clean.

I'm going to grab some XP12s before the next event. Now I'm just waiting for the pistons in the JCW brakes to crack. It's too bad no one makes a replacement kit.

What you say about the RE71R is interesting. I wonder how much of the reputation comes from people putting too much pressure into the tires.

 

So, that is 3 cameras you have going when you are driving... I like your “g” meter that is hanging from the visor...

That perspective looks good and has some info that is different from the front view. Hmmmm noisy tires?

I think the front view is good for judging where you are on the track. With the front view, I used the last couple of turns to judge where the car is on the track relative to the curbing. On those turns you touch the curbs, so I know where that is. Using that it is easy to tell where the car is on the rest of the track.

Your last couple of turns before the bridge seem to be spot on, with just bit of curb.

For T1, I would move up your turn in point a few feet to get down to the apex. Touch the curb. Then I would open up the steering more on the track out so you are at your current track location as you crest the hill. It seem like your are in a good spot when you crest that rise. Then for the esses, I would just touch the curbs.

In this video I noticed that there is a spot (2:45) where the engine gets bogged down going through a turn, and you down shift for the next turn and then up shift again. Would it be better to downshift earlier? I know shift points can be a PIA for some corners and that can change with taller tires. Just something else to think about.

Hey, if you find a source for caliper pistons, post it. I suspect I will need some for my F56 in the future. A thought i had would be to see if any of the Wilwood SS pistons are the right diameter. Another thought is to contact LAP Motorsports to see what they do for their MINI race cars. They must have to deal with that in their F56 cars and maybe they know something about the R56 brakes as well.

And... Continue to have fun.

 

Lots of great input, I'll have to apply it next time I'm there and see how it goes. I really do struggle with determining the shift points. Now that I have a turbo that functions properly, I can adjust a little to make better use of the power.

And I think it's about time to change the name of this thread.

 

Congratulations on considering that the car is no longer a work in progress...

It must feel really good to have a well sorted out car under you.

One “last” thing on driving...

A while back, one of my classroom instructors was asked “On a new-to-you track, how do determine where the apex of a turn is?” His response was - the apex is where the visual distance down the track starts to open up. You then back up from the apex to a turn in point that gets you to the apex. For the last couple of years I have played with this on my favorite twisty roads, doing about 60% and with little traffic. Right turns were the easiest to start with. I put my left tires on the center of the road, then I would watch a corner, looking past the apex and visualize an arc that would take me past where the apex would be, using the above definition. This is easiest to do on a corner that I could see all the way around as I was approaching it. Once I decide on a turn in point, I would arc the car down to what I thought was the apex and then I would track out, back to the center of the road. The next corner I would correct any amount i was off in making a perfect turn. That is, if I was too early on turn in, that would show up as getting to the right side of the road too soon and having to hold it until I saw the road open up. If I turned in too late, I would not make it down to the apex before the road started to open up. It only took a few turns before this became easy to do. After a few more turn I noticed how much less I was turning the steering wheel to go through each turn.

I was recently at a new-to-me track and had to figure out a line on my own. They ran the 1st half hour under yellow and people were going about 70%. This was about perfect for applying the above. I had it pretty well down at the end of the 1st one hour session... From there it was also about fine tuning it... This is a 2.2 mile, 17 turn motorcycle track. Different but extreme fun.

I know, one more thing to think about, but doing it on your favorite twisty road with no one around allows you to concentrate on that, and not having to worry about some GT3 snarking up your back end...

 

You might enjoy this @Eddie07S. Mark Pombo piloting the #80 John Allen Special at Road Atlanta in the Champ Car series.



There is so much to learn here. I'm going to take notes and try to follow his line when I'm back at RA next month.

 

OMG - That 3 wide pass going into the esses was NUTS!

Skill...

And, the best part is, he is in a MINI...

Skill - being able to drive where ever he wants coming out of T1 and going up and over the rise.

He has about the perfect line through each turn. You can see/hear how the car just touches the curbing on each turn. He uses the whole track on track out. His braking is much better than anyone else out there.

Something else that Mark is very good at. It is unappreciated how being smooth and slow-ish with steering inputs can help with lap times. Especially in a MINI. MINIs hate abrupt inputs.

You could do worse than following his leads...

Enjoy.

 

Post your notes. I would like to see what you are thinking, if you don’t mind.