Soundstage prototypes being installed now. I can't wait for Friday - just in time for Memorial Day weekend.

Talked with Kevin for awhile yesterday. In terms of *packaging*, it sounds like you'll get what you need. What each package will be is still to be decided - it is quite amazing to me the sheer number of variables/products that Kevin is dealing with to get the system where he wants it. If all of this were done any faster, it just wouldn't be the quality that it is.

In terms of packaging, I wondered whether most people (if they had to choose) would choose the subwoofer over the Soundstage. I still wonder. Personally, I think almost every stock system lacks bass - especially good bass.

 

I am very happy with the sub. It has done an amazing job of taking the 2009 hi-fi system (pre 2010 HK system's cheaper cousin) and making it sound very good. It is probably just fine as is but I want to know what even better or awesome sounds like. And considering how much I love listening to music, I just have to find out .

 

onefish2 - I'm happy with the sub, too. Except now that I have the Soundstage, I don't think about the sub as much. Kevin, without a doubt, did wonders in adjusting the old speakers and the sub to really improve the Hi-Fi's sound. But the sound now is off the charts good. OFF THE CHARTS. My ride home from Kevin's shop told the tale, I think. At highway speeds, windows open I could drown out the wind and road noise - no kidding. Before, if I tried the same thing, the system would just struggle. Mightily.

First, you might imagine that jumping to high end, amplified speakers would drastically improve the sound, but I'm shocked at how different it is, because it's not *just* louder. There is so much music in my collection that I feel like I'm listening to for the first time - particularly older recordings where the production wasn't as good - they sounded flat before. I'm hearing instruments much more clearly and when I want it loud, it can be loud and there is no distortion. NONE. There were some songs that I simply could not turn up before because the distortion was so bad. Music that is produced well (I just had a listen to a couple tunes by the Atlanta Rythym Section that were outrageously good!) is crisp, clear and FILLS the car. To say that I'm happy with the Soundstage would be an understatement. And now that there's a true woofer in the door (if MINI called theirs a woofer, they were dreaming) I get to *see* bass in my rear view mirrors.

Here are the important facts with the latest install: I have a 3-way package (there will also be a 2-way package available) which includes: Integral Audio speakers built for IA by Morel - 6" woofer in the lower door, 3" dome mid-range in the upper door (pic below) and a 28mm soft dome tweeter in the A-pillar. Bass & treble settings at the moment are flat at zero; I'm not finding any need to adjust that and may even turn down the treble - at high volume the "highs" are almost too crisp and clean. The rear 6X9's have been untouched and made fairly irrelevant - faded to the fronts at 4. My amp was also swapped out and is now the Arc Audio KS125.4 MINI. This one has a fan in it - kinda threw me off when I shut the car down after picking it up; here was this new noise coming from the boot. I'm pretty sure that's everything and if I got any of the numbers wrong, I'm sure Kevin will chime in. I personally don't really care much about the numbers - I only care about what my ear hears and right now they are waaaaaaaaay happier than they were a week ago!

Kevin worked really hard to get this done - I offered to show the system at MINIS on TOP and I think that the timing was tight. But I will be in the Concours at the Loon Lot - come and give it a listen for yourself.

The Kid being dismantled



3" Dome mid-range

 

Sweet. I am anxiously waiting for the day that Kevin can install the Soundstage in my car.

I knew it would sound awesome. Glad to hear you love it.

 

For other folks following this thread, just wanted to point out that this is exactly as it should be. Your ear can't localize low frequency sound, and you shouldn't notice a properly tuned and integrated subwoofer - until you turn it off and notice how much you'd be missing without it. With the new prototype Soundstage upgrade in, Albiecrazy's sub is doing a little less work than it was before, now being crossed over at ~75Hz vs. 85Hz previously. This is achievable now due to completely removing the HiFi DSP and low-quality HiFi speakers from the system and signal chain, and allows a more seamless integration from front soundstage to subwoofer.

What Albiecrazy has in his vehicle is the latest prototype of the 3-way system. A 2-way system is also planned, and may be the first system available. I am working out the production details now.

If anyone has any questions, feel free....I'll keep an eye on this thread.

 

So interested in this upgrade for my 2011 MCS w/HK. I already got your sub (love it!), but now the rest of the system can't keep up.

 

Im curious as to what the Soundstage upgrade will sound like without getting the Sub (coming from Hi-Fi option). Will the bass be a vast improvment over factory? I have also heard a stock HK 2011 factory stereo and Im also curious as to the comparison of bass from that to the upgrade, again, without the sub.

Thanks.

 

If we are talking about just bass for just the Soundstage, the Soundstage upgrade will give pretty flat frequency response down to about 50Hz or so (final numbers subject to testing of the production versions). Compare that with the HiFi & h/k's exaggerated (i.e. uneven or unflat) response peak at about 70Hz. To try to frame it in qualitative terms (which I hate doing): the HiFi and h/k systems are plagued by what I refer to as "one-note bass" where all bass notes sound the same - exaggerated at ~70Hz, boomy, and muddy. The Soundstage will give lower bass, but the more important thing is that the bass is more accurate. Again, to try to frame it qualitatively: the Soundstage upgrade will give yield what most would describe as tight, accurate, clean bass.

Keep in mind, however, that the real benefit of the Soundstage upgrade is not in the bass region - it is mids and highs - which are truly abysmal in the factory systems. Also keep in mind that frequency response is only one aspect of sound quality measurement, and the improvement of the response in the Soundstage understates the real amount of benefit (it would be like comparing one car to another based solely on horsepower and ignoring elements like handling and torque).

You are not going to get true low sub-bass in the 20-50Hz region without a subwoofer, for that you'd need to add the 1101S Subwoofer as well.

 

Thanks for the explanation. I, like many people, want to be able to crank up a rock tune, or anything for that matter. However us with the HiFi cant becasue of massive bass distortion (espcially in hard rock). I dont really need to have a sub, even though that would be the best setup.

I think us HiFi guys would like to have our systems more like the new HK systems, but maybe just a tad better overall. Still have some type of bass roughly comparable to the new HK, but without the sub. This is what Im hoping the soudstage upgrade would accomplish.

 

The new h/k system isn't even in the same universe as our 3-way Soundstage upgrade. Not even remotely close. If you think the h/k sounds good, you'll be absolutely floored at our Soundstage. If you'll be at MOT, get yourself over to Walter's car and take a listen.

 

Ball, I was really happy with the sub going in, along with Kevin’s tweeking to make the stock system sound *acceptable*. But honestly, the Soundstage upgrade would be the first thing I would do if I couldn’t do the whole shooting match at one time. Think of it this way – you’re replacing 6 of the 8 existing (and very crappy) speakers with IA’s amplified and high end speakers. It is the most change you will hear in the cabin.

And I’m the same in terms of being very disappointed with the stock Hi-Fi when listening to metal/hard rock - the bass in the stock system just falls apart at high volume. The Soundstage does not fall apart at all and there is significant bass coming from the 6” woofer!!!!

 

That pretty much sells me on the soundstage upgrade when it comes out. Thanks!

 

Kevin,

I have been following Albie's thread since the beginning. I've been watching to see how it went and am thinking of driving from NC to NY to have you do the install.

Though I know you would probably much rather use your own equipment, there were a few items I purchased already.

That being...





Since I have these two items, are they still something you can use? I had not purchased speakers because I really want plug and play (meaning using factory mounting holes, etc)

Your thoughts?


Thanks,


Mark

 

Mark,

if you do come up to NYC make sure you look me up. It would be great to meet you and see Oscar.

 

Mark,

I'm flattered that you would make such a long trip! For the time being I am continuing to offer local installation of our products on a limited basis and would be happy to accommodate you. Unfortunately the MS-8 and JL amp would complicate the installation - primarily fitment and wiring issues. It can be done and we could do it, but it just isn't something we'd be interested in since we don't run a retail shop here - installations are done at our development lab in Brooklyn, and installation time takes away from development time.

Some additional thoughts on the MS-8: We have one in the shop that we used for testing since we are planning on having amplifiers built to our spec with similar DSP capability. I haven't been impressed so far (we do have a bit more testing to do). DRC (digital room correction) and Speaker Correction are good (and proven) concepts, but they more limited in what it can do than what the folks marketing the units would like you to believe. Additionally, we have yet to see one for car audio that provides the measurable improvements that it should. The weakness seems to be in the measurement setup included with the processors - proper measurement isn't something that can easily be done with a cheap binaural microphone and relatively uncontrolled test procedure. A core weakness of ALL black-box DRC/SC systems is that to be really effective they need to be tailored to a specific setup (room, drivers, etc) since there are some things that you want to correct and some that you don't, and the current systems aren't smart enough to know what's what. (See this link for a start on more detail if you are interested - http://blog.acousticfrontiers.com/wh...t-must-do.html)

Anyway, it isn't going to hurt to have it in your system, but it needs to be setup properly. Just don't expect a world of measurable, objective improvement (as opposed to psychological, subjective improvement - which is what virtually everyone feedback on the units is providing).

I'm sending you a PM with additional info - please feel free to contact me to discuss.

 

Kevin,

Can you describe what you mean by the 2-way and 3-way versions, as well as how the upgrade is different depending on which system you have in your car? For reference I have a 2011 MCS with the stock system and I very interested in buying your system for my car, when it is available later this year.

 

The upgrades are still in the development process, so I'll give you the run down on where we currently stand - just keep in mind that this is premature and some of these details may change.

All the systems under development use the factory speaker locations. The 3-way system places a tweeter in the A-pillar location, a 2.5" midrange in the upper door, and a 6" woofer in the lower door, and an amplifier. This is what Albiecrazy has in his car now and will be showing at MOT. If all goes well with the wiring harnesses and tooling, this will be available for all MINIs, regardless of whether they came with the Standard 6 speaker audio or the upgraded HiFi or H/K.

The 2-way system places a tweeter (a real tweeter, not the crappy cone that MINI calls a tweeter) in the upper door location and a 6" woofer in the lower door. I am revisiting designing a 2-way system at a lower price point that would not require an amplifier. This would only be available for MINIs with the standard 6 speaker audio. There may also be a premium, amplified version available. Unfortunately there are too many moving pieces right now to give any kind of firm answer.

Rest assured though, there will be nothing else available that combines the performance, stealth look, and easy installation of what we are putting together.

 

Kevin,

Is there a space limitation in the door mid location? I only ask because the Hybrid Ovation 4" should fit in there which would a crossover point between the midbass and midrange around 250Hz which would make dramatic improvements in stage height, clarity, and definition, if it will fit. The CDM-88 is a great mid, don't get me wrong, just wondering if it was a fitment issue.

What specifically didn't you like about the MS-8? I agree that the EQ curve isn't to everyone's liking, especially with regards to the way it blends the sub and midbass, but to say that he won't see any real-world, measurable, changes or improvements is a bit...misleading, IMO. Mine made a HUGE difference from stock. Is it something I couldn't have done on my own? No, but I've been doing this for two decades. Does it get me to the 85-90% range? Absolutely, and in just a few minutes. I'm NOT saying it's perfect, some cars just don't respond well to it (E9xs are a prtty good example) but the software/hardware is pretty solid and the best example I've heard yet.

Again, just curious about your specific experience with the MS-8.

 

Any updates on the sub system for us Clubman owners?

 

longer wires

 

And, bigger wood.

(assuming some ply or MDF is used?)

 

Yes, there is a space constraint there (which may have been overcome), but the larger consideration was off-axis response. The extra bandwidth of the HO4 was outweighed by poorer response extreme off-axis (72 degrees on the drivers side).

It was exactly what you reiterated - real world, measurable results. I have more testing to do, and haven't been able to get to it, but...my comments above were based on the fact that we did before and after impulse response/FFTs of an MS-8 and did not measure the improvements with the MS-8 that should have been there - freq/power response and group delay were altered but just as poor as they were to start with. I have a number of thoughts on what the issues are, and touched on some of them above.

All that said, as I mentioned before I still have more testing to do. I need to put the MS-8 on the bench and pull the transfer function/correction curves that it is applying. That will tell me a lot about what it is trying to do and where it fell short. As I mentioned, DRC/SC are proven concepts, but I'm not sure I believe/understand how they would be applied in a situation where both the "room" and the "speaker(s)" are unknown quantities, i.e. as the fix-all black box that the MS-8 and others like it are billed as.

I don't want to hijack this thread, though, and get too far afield. Once I've completed the testing (who knows when that will be) I will post the results in a new thread. I also have a detailed analysis of the new HK system to post, haven't had a chance to do that either.....

 

Well, to be honest the Clubbie enclosure has dropped pretty far down the priority list. It is currently superseded by the MINI Soundstage and projects for a half-dozen other vehicles.

The main reason for the drop in priority was a lack of demand. If I'm wrong about the demand, Clubbie owners let me know....if I had 10 committed buyers I'd move it to #2 on the priority list (after the Soundstage).

In terms of details, the design for the Clubman enclosure is taller, fitting cleanly under the factory false-floor and shorter (front to back), retaining about 2/3 of the storage space under the false floor. The enclosure sits on extended side walls that lift it up off the boot floor, with the sub and amp mounted out of site underneath. Visually, all you'd see with it installed is a clean black box (with the same IA logo as the R56/7 version). It mounts with the same quick release as the R56/7 version.

 

Well, sign me up as #1 on the "Wait List" for the Clubbie version.

I assume that it uses up some of the spare tire well, will it still leave room for a space saver spare?

 

Makes sense. I haven't really looked yet but in a car that narrow that absolutely makes sense.

It's a pretty simple concept that's not terribly easy to implement. It's essentially Audyssey for a car. MS-8 plays test tones, measures impulse and prequency response and then adjusts the time alignment and EQ to meet the pre-installed target. There are some tricks involved, especially if you are running the mid/tweet passive. We have an almost 5-year long thread on diymobileaudio.com about the MS-8 with at last 100 or so pages dedicated to tuning tips and tricks since it was introduced. Ken at musicar nw was nice enough to consolidate most of the tips into a single document. I have it at home if you'd like it.

Back on topic - Is the new setup passive? I'm assuming so but wanted to double check. Ballpark price range? How close are we to production.

I like your idea for the Clubbie. Mine is still in production but the quick looks I've had so far gave me the same ideas. LOTS more room to wrk with.