edit: See thread replies below for pictures of the install and tools used to install the HSK 165 2 component system from HERTZ

I would truly appreciate input about these Hertz speakers for the convertible. Anyone used them in their cabrio, especially if you have the R57 (Cooper S)?

I found a sale for HERTZ 3 way Components ESK 163s and 163L. There is also an HSK 163 and 165. I have read that the 165 are better model than the 163. Yet they are also more expensive. I am leaning towards the 163L model... But here is my other question. The L model is deeper in measure than the S model. The 163s are also called Ultra Flat.
What sound difference would there be going with these vs the 163L? Maybe someone has heard both and didn't notice appreciable difference?

I'm ready for any and all Input... Little to lots of experience....scientific to Hypothetic reasoning are all welcome. I have yet to buy and need your advice!

 

I am thinking of going with the Hertz ESK 163L 3-way set as well for my MINI to upgrade my "hifi" speakers. The price I was quoted was $289 for the set. If the price you found is better (and they have multiple sets), would you mind sending me a PM?

As far as I know, the difference between the 163 and 165 sets are the 163 are 3-way (tweet, 4" midrange, 6.5" woofer) and the 165 are 2-way (tweet and 6.5" woofer) component sets.

The HSK is the model range up from the ESK. I am only going with the ESK since I really do not plan on upgrading from the hifi amp, but I am assuming you are adding an amp for these speakers as well? If so, the HSKs are supposed to sound muuuuuch better than the ESKs when properly amped. But the HSKs, of course, are significantly more expensive.

Also, it looks like there are a TON of the older model Hertz ESK and HSK sets for sale. You can tell they are the older model because they have the pointy cone in the middle. Supposedly the newer model is a huge step up in quality, and the older model HSKs sound similar to the new ESK. Most of what you see on Ebay are the older model.

Good luck!

 

Good Morning Maurtis, I will PM the site I have been watching. It's an Italian Ebay site. It was either them or some sites from California. It's been hard to find any other vendors for HERTZ. There have been an occassional resale here and there, but I didn't jump on it fast enough on eBay.

The Italian Ebay site was recommended by some members on DIYMOBILEAUDIO. The forum really gets down to the atomic level when discussing audio and electrical. Some of their members are repeat buyers from ebay.it and they usually go for sellers that have 1,000 plus feedback.

I can tell you that the site I have looked at already sent me a reply to a question I had about shipping. Their feedback is 11,000+. So I am willing to chance it.

I know amping the new speakers is the way to go. I might have to hold off on the AMP until later. My upgrade is going to have to be in stages.

Additional info I found on HERTZ:
1 Caraudiomag.com discusses HERTZ speakers in a Audi A4
2 2006 Review, but discusses in detail how the HERTZ system sounds

Still curious about the Ultra Flat design of speakers versus the others.

 

Thanks to this post from Markward in the R56 Speaker thread and Maurtis advice here (with referal) I ordered a set of HERTZ HSK Hi-Energy 165.4 system speakers <English PDF from Official HERTZ Site>. The difference in basket opening is 5mm or 2.5mm at the perimeter. I anticipate possibly having to shave the OEM opening but as a last resort. The system is basically a 1" tweeter, 6.5" woofer and the dedicated crossover.
I am ordering it from a pro audio shop in Raleigh, North Carolina. Joe is the owner and has been great on the phone with explanations, anecdotal advice and patience! His shop is called Audio Exchange and can be found on the net here: http://www.audioexchangeofraleigh.com/. The speakers are the latest version (165.4) and come with original box and mounting hardware. Joe even clued me into the fact that the tweeter come with a minor "brightness" adjustment that you can set depending on how "close to the stage you want to be".

This metaphor helped me undestand which brand to go with. I was considering Focals and Diamonds. His explanation to me was that if you like being close to the stage and hearing really bright highs, then most tend to pick Focal. However, the HERTZ tends to be a warmer sound and little farther from the stage of the music. That's suits me more as my hearing can't handle too much brightness from the tweeters. Until speaking with him, I didn't have a way to differentiate the brands. Hard to find a pro shop that carries high end stuff where I live.

Overall, I am impressed so far with his customer service. He only charged 20 dollars shipping by federal express ground. I called to order today and the ETA is Tuesday or Wednesday at the latest. They were shipped today! As well, he did offer to answer any install questions once I got started. Very nice.

By the way, his prices are only 40 dollars more (at current rates), then the Italy eBay vendors (looking at official HERTZ sellers with 10,000+ rating). In the mean time, while I wait for the speakers, I plan on swapping the front and rear channels if time allows https://www.northamericanmotoring.co...nnel-swap.html.

More to come when the install begins...

Update: Shipment arrived as promised Tuesday. 3 days after the order. Encouragement for anybody wanting to order from a Brick and Mortar vs going with online.

 

I actually have the HSK 163.4 setup, simply because i wanted the three-way setup to replace what is in the car. I have yet to install it, but I did similar research and found that the Hertz speakers are highly regarded.

I'll be looking forward to both your install and opinions of the speakers!

 

For anyone with the HiFi or new H/K systems, please note that you can't simply replace the existing speakers with Hertz, Focal, or virtually any other off-the-shelf 3-way system. Why? Because the HiFi amp has electronic crossovers and DSP shaping built into it. The front 6 speakers are powered by four channels of the amplifier - the 6" door woofer is one channel and only gets frequencies below 100Hz. The 3.5" door midrange and 25mm A-pillar tweeter share a channel that gets everything above 100Hz. The tweeter is protected from low frequencies below 8.5kHz by a very poor quality capacitor. BOTH of these front channels are heavily DSP-processed and are NOT flat - see the images below. Among other things, the signal processing attempts to make up for the poor low frequency response of the woofer, the poor low-midrange response of the midrange, and makes a very clumsy effort to deal with the midranges nasty break-up node at 10kHz.

There is no way to use the passive crossovers that come with the aftermarket 3-way systems with the factory amp, and the aftermarket 3-ways (from Hertz, Focal, and others) are all designed with a roughly 500Hz crossover from woofer to midrange instead of the 100Hz crossover in the factory system. The aftermarket midrange is not going to perform well trying to handle the 100-500Hz low-midrange that the factory amp would be sending to it, not to mention the compensation circuitry you'd need to try to fix the DSP-induced problems. Additionally, you'd fry the tweeter unless you did something to protect it.

If you want to upgrade the speakers in the HiFi or H/K systems you need to add a separate amplifier (the factory amp must remain in the car). Alternatively, you could wait for our plug-n-play SoundStage upgrade for the MINI. It'll probably be another 2 months before the HiFi/HK version is ready, a bit sooner for base stereo equipped MINIs.

This is the signal coming from the amp. The red line is to the 6in woofer, the blue is to the midrange tweeter:

 

Derepente and Jaydub, any reason in particular you went with the HSK versus the ESK? Just wondering how much of a difference in sound quality there is between the two sets.

Kevin, thanks for the useful info. I was planning on not using the provided crossover with the Hertz speakers and just relying on the crossover built into the Hifi amp (and the existing cheapo cap for the new tweet). Others have mentioned doing the same with Focals here on NAM with good results even without an aftermarket amp.

Since my personal front speaker upgrade will not take place until after the sub, I am still a few months out so look forward to seeing what y'all come up with. Hopefully it will be something I can afford

Thanks,
Maurtis

 

For me, it was mostly wishful thinking that the HSKs were closer in proximity to the Mille line, instead of at the bottom end.

I've installed and bought enough equipment over the years that I just naturally tend to ignore the bottom end components. Beyond that, I had only heard the HSK's once in someone's car, and I was very impressed.

 

Makes sense. I listened to the ESK and HSK 165 on the sound board at a local shop (they did not have any 163 sets in stock to listen to), and they sounded close enough to my ears that I was not worried about the ESKs.

The HSKs did sound a bit better, though.

Keep us posted on how the install goes!

 

Thank you Kevin for posting that valuable info. The graph helps visualize it as well.

Regarding ESK vs HSK: I was initially going to get the ESK product line. I went with the HSK after recommendations from folks on DIYMOBILEAUDIO.com and also Joe from AudioExchange of Raleigh. I could not find a place to audition the speakers near me. Joe understood my need for a fuller sound without aggressive tweeter sound. That was the opinion and advice I needed to stay with the HERTZ brand and go with the HSK line. I may be connecting them eventually to a 2 channel amp. It's one I already have: Kenwood KAC 628. it'll have to do for now. Depending on how much time I have to do the work.

The latest posts on the R56 Speaker swap sticky thread talk about how the bass response in convertibles is poor because we don't have 6x9s in the rear. Makes me consider not doing the front rear channel swap afterall. With the HERTZ getting a full signal, and no sub in my setup..yet, I think it would be wise to do the channel swap when I am ready to put in a sub woofer.

 

Using the Hertz (or any other similar 3-way) in that manner is without question going to give you very uneven frequency response and lots of distortion. Here's what will happen and why:

You will have overly exaggerated bass between 40-60Hz and you will have a large dip in the mid-bass response from about 100-150Hz. Why? Because the factory speakers are designed differently from the Hertz speakers. The HiFi 6" woofer has an Fs (resonance frequency) of 85Hz and a sensitivity of 86dB. The HiFi 3.5" midrange has an Fs of 136Hz and a sensitivity of 88dB. Speakers have a natural roll-off in response of 6dB/octave below Fs. The numbers above are why the graph in my previous post looks the way it does - the factory amp uses DSP to "EQ" the signal the factory speakers receive to make up for their poor response in the lower frequencies of their utilized range. The woofer also gets more power to make up for the sensitivity mis-match.

The Hertz HSK 6" has an Fs of 60Hz and a sensitivity of 89dB (the claimed 92dB is misleading - they measured that at 2.83V into 4ohm instead of 1W) and the HSK 3.5" has an Fs of 155Hz and an 89dB sensitivity. The Hertz's 6" roll off starts much lower than the HiFi and it has much better low frequency response. But when paired with the exaggerated "EQ" of the HiFi amp you'll get an exaggerated peak in the response in the 40-60Hz range. The extra power the amp delivers to the woofer (to compensate for the factory speaker sensitivity mis-match) only makes matters worse. You have the exact opposite problem with midrange. Additionally, the HSK midrange doesn't have the excursion capability the HiFi midrange does (the HSK mid is designed to work with the 500Hz-4.5kHz signal it would get from the HSK crossover) - so you will have displacement limited power output and distortion in the 100-150Hz range at high volume. The Bass control on the head unit is centered at about 100Hz - so attempting to correct the problem by turning the bass up or down is only going to make the problem worse.

An even bigger problem, though, is that since the midrange and tweeter get the same signal you absolutely MUST have a passive component installed to block the low frequencies from the tweeter or you will get tremendous distortion from the tweeter as it tries to produce the entire range from 100Hz-20kHz (the HiFi tweeter has an onboard 4.3mF capacitor). Not to mention it will void the warranty. The tweeter channel is only 3W from the HiFi amp - maybe not enough to cook the tweeter unless you really drive it hard, but it is certainly a possibility if running the tweeter full range like that. On the midrange side, since you can't use the crossover you are also missing the Lo Pass midrange section of the HSK crossover, and have nothing in place to deal with the breakup peak of the midrange. Unless the breakup of the HSK mid just happens to coincide with the ~11kHz notch from the HiFi amp you will have the harsh shrillness of the breakup mode intruding on your music.

But wait...there's more. The HiFi tweeter has low sensitivity to make up for the lack of a lo pass filter on the HiFi midrange (the tweeter and the midrange in the HiFi system BOTH produce all the high frequencies). The HSK isn't designed this way - the midrange in the HSK rolls off at 4.5k and the tweeter rolls on. As such, the tweeter in the HSK is much higher sensitivity, so on top of everything else you are going to have overly exaggerated treble.

The end result - too much bass, not enough mid-bass, distortion in the mid-bass, a harsh breakup mode from the midrange, distortion from the tweeter, possibly a cooked tweeter, and exaggerated treble.

In principle, everything I've said above applies to the Focal's as well, though the specifics would be different. I realize that you've said that others have reported good results doing this. I don't want to offend anyone, but I've listened to some truly horrific installations that the owner/installer thought was fantastic. I think that if you spend $400 and a whole day of your time, your brain isn't going to let your ears tell it that it was the wrong decision and you just wasted your time and money. And in all fairness, to an untrained ear it may seem to sound better at first - due to the booming bass and exaggerated treble (BOSE in-store displays have used this concept to sell untold millions of otherwise crappy systems for decades). But by any objective measure, doing the above is going to cause you problems and waste your money.

 

Kevin, that explanation makes good sense. Any idea on what the target pricepoint for your solution will be? Can I hope that $400 number you mentioned in your example might be significant?

And are you at liberty to discuss how you are going to get around the Hifi's limitations? An external amp? Signal processor (a DSP-buster!)?

 

$400 is roughly the price point we are shooting for, but we are still in the prototyping phase and there are a lot of decisions to be made. Ultimately we will have three different upgrade packages for the MINI - the already completed 1100S Subwoofer System, an unamplified front Soundstage upgrade, and an amplified Soundstage upgrade that will use a purpose-buillt amplifier with our own DSP programming and and purpose-built speakers (likely both front and rear).

For the unamplified front Soundstage upgrade, the speakers are being designed around the MINI's system. We build the speakers using the same quality materials and distortion limiting mechanisms that you find in a quality speaker such as the Focal's, but we alter the the suspension, moving mass, motor parameters such as the voice coil height, winding, magnet strength, etc, to get a speaker that works with the MINI's factory system rather than creating problems.

 

I had to read Kevin's reply carefully to realize what an impact a straight replacement of speakers has on the HIFI setup. I feel fortunate that I don't have to deal with the hifi amp.

Thank you for the roll off info about the HSK line. That is very useful information for anyone considering these speakers.

When shopping for a subwoofer to accompany the 165.4 2way HSK, what "roll on" numbers are recommended for the sub? Is there a certain amount of overlap that is desired or acceptable in Frequency response from the midrange 6.5" and the sub?

 

I am glad to have read this before installing the set of Hertz HSK 163.3 speakers I have had sitting around for a year. Luckily I got them for a bargain from the DIYMA classifieds. I did test fit the tweeter and it perfectly snaps into the factory pod in the A pillar. Now to list them on eBay and wait for your unamplified speaker system, or do nothing.

 

I do have the right side door speakers replaced. I ran out of time unfortunately to get a good connection point for the speaker lead to the crossover. The tweeter is in the upper door location and the 6.5 is in the lower door. I am very impressed with the sound as it is. I think I could definitely make improvements by using the HERTZ crossover. I need to read up on how folks have accessed the channel lead in the door versus the x9331 connector.
For now, the right side sounds great and I have moved the fader more towards the front.

The HERTX 165 6.5" speaker will fit in the OEM hole by mounting it side ways. As you look at the speaker in place, the connectors face towards the rear at horizontal. I carefully drilled and then tightened the speaker screws. There is still what seems like a 2mm gap around the speaker and I didn't want to bend the speaker basket, but it's firmly in place. Another HERTZ speaker owner said he dremmeled the hole for better fit. That's another option.

 

Do you plan to replace the amp as well? I also have a R57 with non-Hifi, and am not sure how much improvement I can get from just replacing speakers.

 

You'll be very happy when you change the speakers. The HERTZ sound crisp and the bass is punchy and clean. I am wanting the subwoofer and thinking about how to amp the whole thing....but...

MrWonder, this is totally subjective. I really like what I am hearing....from the right side, ha,ha. Can't wait to get the driver's left door panel off and replace those, too.

My one hickup is that I used the speaker lead wires. I have not used the crossovers that come especially setup up for the HERTZ 165 speakers. (have been carefull not to run them at loud volume and have since installed the crossovers for a major improvement!)

To do so would most likely mean wires running from the x9331 to the doors to the cross overs and then from the cross overs to each speaker. The connection for an amp is at that same x9331. I keep thinking, If I am going to the trouble of exposing that molex connector x9331; I might as well get the wires in for the amp.

But, time is my limiting factor. I don't have a lot of extra time and I don't want to give someone else my project. So I might afterall, just replace the speakers without using the crossovers until I can get more time to install the amp.

Sorry so long, but I am really torn about this. I'll say this...the door is not as hard to remove and reading the R56 thread gives insight on what to look out for.

The other thing that is still bugging me is that I think I installed the tweeter out of phase (switched the positive and negative wires). The wires that were right there at the upper speaker position were blue/black and blue/brown. I used blue/brown as the + and blue/black as the - wires to the HERTZ tweeters. The sound is improved and I don't notice any hissing or unpleasantness. But that could very well be the fact that the HeadUnit on the MINI doesn't push them that much? Don't know. Most of the R56 thread talks about wire colors for the hardtop MINIs. Can't find a post where somebody verified the R57 2009 MINI speaker wire colors.

 

Too late, but I found the place where MINI put the wires for the upper and lower door speakers in parallel connection. It was in front of me the whole time but since I hadn't read anything about this, I left it alone at first go. Now I know what to look for when I do the left driver door. If you have a component set of speakers with crossovers, and you are NOT going to install an amp (YET), this is the place to connect for speaker leads (for the NON-HIFI or basic audio MINIs {especially the R57}). I haven't seen this (or missed it) posted elsewhere. You don't have to cut or do anything to the speaker wires that actually go to the factory speakers!

I have redone the wiring to the right side door with crossover in the armrest, which fit a tad bit loose. As recommended in another thread, a glue gun worked great here.

Instead of going with the blue wires and yellow wires, I just used the yellow group of wires connected by some OEM transparant blue shrink tubing just above the lower woofer location. I even tested them to make sure they did produce sound and of course they did. So the plan is to leave the molex connectors for the OEM speakers unconnected.

MINI wraps a bunch of wires at that point but the shrink tubing is obvious...if you have it. Not sure if everyone else got this "gift" as I did in my car. I'll post a picture to this post in the morning. Under one shrink tube I found three Yellow/brown wires crimped together and the other one had three yellow/black wires crimped together. Once you pull of the shrink tubes you are ready to connect/solder/twist etc.. wires that will go directly to the "IN" for your crossover. All wires are threaded through the armrest, thanks to those who posted that pictures. Helped alot. Again, I'll post a picture so that this all makes sense.

added a picture showing the woofer and tweeter positions. Note that on the HERTZ woofer the name is on the right and that's where the connectors are for the speaker. Handy reference.

 

Looking forward to pictures!

 

Both doors are done, finally! Took me an hour to clean up the wiring and install the crossover on the left. Took another 90 minutes to do the driver door, which went more smoothly as I had everything in place ready to go. Key tools I found useful were:

• An automatic wire stripper (got it at a computer expo)
• Handy soldering torch (I tried using Cold/Heat but it really was too cold+cumbersome to use)
• Lots of electrical tape both plastic and the gauze kind.
• A trusty door panel tool. ($4.95 from Amazon) Excellent to help get the upper speaker cups off and essential to remove the ring around the door handle. I was consistent in breaking off the holding clip closest to the lower pin on both sides. Ce la vie!

Photos:
1) Wiring location to use speaker leads in the door

2) Center of armrest. The wires in the armrest and note those three box holes, don't let wires cross there as the middle arm rest has bits that fit into there.
There is lots of room in the armrest for these crossovers and you can twist all of your wires underneath. (recommended by electricians when installing sound cables.) I did one door with the wires flat (pictured) and the other door with all of the wires twisted after reading the recommendation on an electronics forum.

3) The driver door setup (you'll notice different color wires)

 

FYI - adding pictures of the tools I mentioned above.
Also a picture of the foam ring that I needed to remove from both doors as it was touching the woofer's rubber ring. Might have muffled the bass so I did the removal as a preventive measure. If you have to do this also and the ring doesnt easily peel off do the following. Use an exacto knive and cut the ring to the plastic. Then use the tip of your exacto knife to carefully peel up the ring adhesive tape and then gently pull out and around. Worked like a champ for me.

If there any questions let me know. I already know I want a subwoofer as well, but that is another project for another day. For now, know that these speakers sound great!! I did play with the tweeter adjustment. +2db was too much, so I left them both at 0db.

ps: The tweeter adjustment does change the resistence, at least from what i can tell in the HERTZ manual. I have to do some electrical math to figure out what's best for the HeadUnit and performance. That's the third picture. I have the HV165 and the HT25.
Cheers!!

 

I just finish to install these speakers on my R56 MCS 2007, the sound is awesome! also change the rears for an alpine 6x9 and a Polk Audio amplifier, the base system was No HiFI, now all the sound is great close enought to my old 2006 MCS with HK... just with more power from the amp.

I recommend the Hertz 3 ways.

 

Integral Audio:
From what you stated it appears the middle 3.5 or 4 inch door speaker does the majority of the work in the HIFI system. It seems to me that replacing that speaker alone may make the most improvement considering the factory amp equalization and crossover points.

What 3.5 or 4 inch speaker, if any, would you recommend as a replacement until you get your system to market. I assume it should closely match the factory sensitivity rating of around 89db.

 

So you Also replaced the A pillar trim? Post some pictures and congratulations on your HERTZ Setup.