Has any one replaced the stock HK speakers with any other type seperates (without changing amplifiers)? I was looking at the 5 1/4 seperates and 6x9s from MB Quart along with adding an Infinity Basslink. I wonder if these mods will be wortwhile when retaining the stock head unit and HK amp?

 

Dear Darksky,

I don' t have the HK setup. I couldn't wait the extra 5 more months. I went for a MCS that was in stock the week I was looking and it had the normal audio system.

I replaced the stock front and rear speakers and put in a pair of MB Quart DSD 213 component (19mm/5.25&quot speakers with crossovers for the front and in the rear MB Quart DKC 169 (6x9 coaxial). These two pairs of MB Quarts are from the Discus line which is moderately priced and pretty basic.

I wanted to add an amp but I was told that if I kept the factory head unit it wasn't really worth it to spend more for an amp. (There was probably enough power in the factory radio to match the speakers) I didn't add any subwoofers. My cost was a higher due to retail prices for the speakers and $110 to install the fronts and $55 to install the rears. On the internet at places like sounddomain.com you can find various MB Quarts like these for around $140 for the fronts and as low as $99 for the rears. Prices and availability will vary. Warranty for me was 3 years which is much better than one year for the internet companies. The shop I went to was very good about doing a first rate install and I added the MB Quart black tweeter mesh screens over the silver tweeter openings on my front doors.

I did listen to a HK radio in a MCS at the dealer recently and it is very nice but the bass was way strong and the balance for the rear speakers was very unbalanced. When I faded all of the music to the rears only it sounded like it was missing the mid range completely. Need to play around with the settings more. The bass and treble settings where set to slightly above middle and the HK was set to electronic. Highs were bright and crisp with good separation.

When I listen to the stock radio it sounds OK but on closer inspection the highs are lacking and the overall sound is muddy without good clarity. Given that the car tends to be noisy this is not that big a deal and I think for the average driver the stock radio will work OK. People that want good sound will opt for the complete aftermarket redo. HK is a good stock plus option that would be covered under warranty and adds to the sound and look for the car.

As for my set up, it works for me. The overall sound is balanced, not too much bass, highs are noticably better. The rears are good with more bass than the fronts which have better highs. I fade to the front a bit more than the backs and almost all music sounds fine to me. There is not ample power before distortion but it is a little better than the stock set up. The music is moderately good, at low or high volumes, clearer than stock and hopefully will keep sounding good over time (better materials will resist heat and time and still provide good sound)

A word about the OEM speakers. They look cheap- single paper cone construction, small magnets, not built to last.
The tweeter is one inch diameter 4 ohms 15W
The front speaker is 5.25" 5 ohms 15W
The rear speaker is 6x9 5 ohms 15W
The magnets on both the front and rears are the same size measuring 2 and 7/8 x 0.5"

 

I've been thinking about your question more and I took another listen to the HK system. Very heavy on the bass.

I think it would be possible to do something along the lines of what you suggest. Keep the HK head unit and amp and change out the component speakers in the front doors but use a model of higher quality than what I used- Discus line is too basic to be matched with HK. Plus the better speakers come with better crossovers .Size is another factor because it has to fit the original openings - see if you can find an RSC 213 for a good price which is the same size tweeter as the DSD 213. Both are 3/4 of an inch. PSD 213 costs much more and has a larger 1 inch tweeter which may or may not fit.

For the rears the MB Quart DKC 169 is fine. you want a moderate speaker back there to keep the cost down and provide fill in music with some bass. Otherwise for more bass add a subwoofer like an Infinity Basslink.

Another good choice for front speakers would be focals.

 

I appreciate your thoughts. I noticed on a post somewhere that an owner had replaced his 6x9 speakers with a mid 6.5. That might be a way to get tighter mid range and reduce the boomy or muddy feel of the bass, letting the low frequencies be provided by the BassLink. I am hesitant to commit to these mods. I would hate to invest the $, and even more so the effort and expectations. Only to have the system not really be any better afterwards.

 

Darksky-

I guess if you are concerned about making changes but not getting results then you could- peak under the door and inside panels at the actual HK speakers and see what they look like. The MB Quarts and other aftermarket speakers are of higher quality and it is readily apparent from looking at the construction/design/materials/magnets. The stock speakers were not impressive but they do the job and keep costs down.

In the rears it is always possible to use 6.5 " speakers instead of 6x9 but sometimes modification of the panel is needed which increases installation cost and hassle. The basic 6x9 MB Quarts just drop into the openings- no fuss- particularly good if you do it yourself but you will need to know how to remove the rear seat and side panels without damaging anything. The installation on the fronts takes longer due to the crossovers. I don't think that the 6x9 MB Quarts that I have give me too much bass. I think they would be fine with any subwoofer. The 6x9 lack deep bass anyway- it's more for low to midrange. It does sound fine when I fade to rears only. Would the mid range be a bit tighter with the mid 6.5- maybe but the difference would be small and the installation hassle is the downside.

I know someone that uses the stock radio and stock speakers and added only the infinity BassLink and he said it is fine for him. With my set up, in general I do not feel that the bass is boomy- certainly not like the HK system. Mine is much more reserved and balanced like a stock plus. If I wanted more bass I would first add the Basslink (you can put it in the rear boot and run the wires in the lower door sill rubber lower gasket.

With the HK system with so much bass you would not need to add the BassLink or any subwoofer unless you wanted a cleaner bass sound. Then the added separate bass amp would be helpful. If you can go to car shows you can see what people have done. Well have fun. Aloha,
Brad

 

Ok Darksky, I'll post! Here is the PM I sent you, so everyone can benefit (hopefully )

Honestly, MB Quart's are extremely overrated, I'm not sure how they got the public reputation they did, because they are pretty much a laughing-stock in the audio-engineer community. I would recommend staying away from them if you're looking for high sound quality. I follow very little of aftermarket car audio, mostly because it's a marketing-saturated industry, and it is very hard to get useful specifications.
JL Audio has very good sounding speakers (produced by Vifa). Focal's are much better than most, but definitely not great sounding. Diamond (produced by Eton) has quite good sounding drivers too. Morel is another quality loudspeaker manufacturer. All these are major overpriced (well, from my insider perspective)
I would say you'd be hard-pressed to easily improve the sound quality of your MINI's H/K system by playing amateur hour at the stereo shop (no offense!) If you have a few months to wait, I may start engineering my revisions to my H/K MINI, and keep you updated on what will work best.

Try these optimized settings in your H/K:
Bass: -2
Treble: +4
Balance: 0
Fader: Forward 2
"MINI h/k" DSP setting (the rest only distort the signal more, yuk!)
Driver: Off <--I dislike the Driver time alignment, the stage is too far left, and distracts me when driving. Keeping the Driver "off" keeps the interpretation centered near the front of each person, reducing distraction, but destroys any chance of a coherent stage! (tradeoffs, eh!)

I hope this helps!
Cheers,
Ryan

 

Ryephile-
Thanks for the post. I would agree with you about MB Quarts being over rated but the same can be said of many aftermarket brand names in stereo home as well as cars. Same too for other name sound systems like BOSE. It all boils down to the person enjoying the music. If it sounds good to you then that is what you should get. MB Quarts were recommended to me by the shop I was using- they had more experience in my area than most other shops at adding alarms and upgrading stereos for minis so I went with them. They have other much better sounding things to install for me but at a much higher price so I went with a basic upgrade. I would say that for most people they should not do what I did based on the cost involved. Either leave the stereo alone, it is good enough for the average driver or get the HK system for a relatively good system that is stock and installed by the factory with a warranty. Personally I am trying to get to know the HK system but it isn't the best example of a balanced easy to use sound system. It has quirks and requires adjustment for best results.

I would totally agree with doing the settings you suggested for the HK. Each person can decide how to make further adjustments for their listening preferences.
If you want audiophile sound then you might want to go better than MB Quart and with some of those brands that you mentioned. In my area most shops do not carry them. There is not enough demand and each shop may favor a brand more.

When you do your upgrades please let us all know how it goes. It's pretty easy to spend $1000 to $2000+ on a complete system. It will sound great though.
Thanks again for the assessment and honest opinion. Aloha

 

I took my door panels off today, and took some pics of the HK speakers:

Main (mid/bass) speaker in door:



_________________
Ian C. Gloucester, MA
<A href="http://www.gbmini.net">"GBMINI"</a>...uot;</a>

CWFFC member. Indi Blue / Lapis Blue MCS ... body color exterior trim, chrome grille, painted roof Union Jack, Euro shelf and working rear fogs

 

WOAH! It's a co-axial mid-tweet in the upper part of the doors
I'm totally surprized!

Also looks like the door mid/bass driver has a MINI-specific plastic frame. Changing the driver to a non-MINI-specific will require fabrication of an adapter of some sort.

---> iancull, thank you SO much for the pics!

Cheers,
Ryan

 

iancull-
Those are great pics and show that the HK speakers are quite a bit better than the stock cooper system speakers (the front 5.25" component speakers share the custom mount with 4 screws in an offset design) The HK magnets are much larger about double the size of the base system for the front speakers.

For the front speakers the tweeter looks co-axial I agree compared to the base one which is only the size of the center tweeter from the HK. The mid speaker is still the same size 5.25 inches (it's not quite exactly that size. the base speakers are about 5 even while the HK ones are a little larger.

I'm not sure about the sound deadening material in the doors for the base system.

Would be really good to see pics of the rear speakers. thanks so much for posting these and for taking the time to help.
Aloha

 

The sound deadening is in all cars.

The speakers look like utter garbage!!! Wow!!! I was expecting something better than that!! Looks to be barely a half step up from the base. Yikes! Those magnets still look like bangle bracelets to me. Way too thin/small. And plastic mounting bases? C'mon!

Thanks for the pictures. I'm now very, VERY happy I didn't hold out for the HK and went aftermarket. The factory McIntosh system in my mother's Subaru would kick the HK's ***. How very sad.

Getting back on subject, MB Quarts are ok, but nothing special. But then it's all about what sounds correct to YOUR ear. I'm very partial to Pioneer speakers and some would call me a total freak. But the frequency response and tone ring true to me. Focals sound too "tingy", MB Quarts sound "muddy". I listen to such a wide variety of music that it's important for me to have a speaker capable of producing a wide variety of vocal and instrumental tones. From Alice in Chains to Erasure, it's got to meet MY needs. That's what you need to consider.

Take three of your favorite CDs in that cover different musical tonal variations. Like a classical, rock, electronic, vocal, accoustic, etc. See which speakers retain the best sound across different genres to your ear and then you'll find your winner.

R

 

DavBret,
Oh no ... now I have another brand of speakers to check out (Pioneer)!
Personally so far (given that I am listening to them in a store demo which is hardly realistic!);
I like MB Quarts best - not too bright, and clean to my ears.
Focals sounded a little too bright, but OK.
Boston Acoustics Pros were nice - the ones below pro were not nice though.

And now, hear ( :smile: ) are the rear speaker pics ... I managed to get into them by levering the side panel off from the front, without removing the rear seats and the whole panel. Hope I didn't damage anything!

Rear speaker in the panel - it is well sealed to the space:


Hsalf out - see the double wiring, and wire gauge (maybe 16?):


Panorama after removal:




Just under 4" deep:


And 2ohm rated again - presumably each coil:



OK. Now we can get back to the subject of what speakers should replace these!


Question for Davbret or any other expert:
When I redo my system I do *NOT* want a front sound stage - I want all the speakers to do everything. It may be "wrong" but that is what I like in a car. That is what I am used to.
Yesterday someone suggested putting coax in the front as well as rear, and leaving the tweeter position empty. They suggested this would move the sound away from that position very close to my left ear, and reduce the "aggressive" nature of the HK front sound stage.
Opinions please - will coax in the front make the sound more "rounded" in the car, or will it muffle the higher frequencies?

Thanks.


_________________
Ian C. Gloucester, MA
<A href="http://www.gbmini.net">"GBMINI"</a>...uot;</a>

CWFFC member. Indi Blue / Lapis Blue MCS ... body color exterior trim, chrome grille, painted roof Union Jack, Euro shelf and working rear fogs

 

iancull-
Thanks very much for taking the pics of the rear speakers. Comparing them with the stock speakers I find that the magnets on the HK rears are slightly wider and about three times deeper or thick as the stock speakers- which makes the rear stock magnets like thin coasters in Davbret's book I guess. Also I see two wire connectors in the back of the rear speakers- one on each side- for what? My stock speakers and most speakers have just one connector + and - for the speaker wire- so what is the other wire for?

Seems like the whole stock speaker system both regular and HK is made for as close to adequate sound as possible with a big dose of using economic materials. Or they were frugal. Or in Davbret's opinion they were cheap. However for most regular people the stock sound is OK and the HK is definitely better. Worth the extra $550? Probably not for any audiophile.
Better to go for a custom system but the same can be said about anything on the Cooper. Stock suspension vs sport suspension vs aftermarket suspension. Pick what you want, materials vary and get better with the more costly options and performance increases- not always linearly.

Also- trust your ears. If you cannot easily tell the difference when you play demo music that you are very familiar with as you test the sound systems or speakers, then it is not worth the extra cost to upgrade any further unless you get other benefits like features or a longer warranty.

As for the pros and cons of converting from separate tweeter/midrange with crossovers to one coaxial speaker in the front I would say that if you choose a high quality tweeter/midrange with a good crossover (and you have to listen to it), that would be better sounding- clearer crisper highs and midrange than with even a really good coaxial. You can ask around at stereo shops as see what they say. Of course one of the requirements for great sound out of separates is a quality amp to supply the clean power so that must be factored into the speaker equation. If the limiting factor is keeping the HK amp then there is only so much to be gained by upgrading speakers.

In my case I used the stock radio and upgraded only the speakers to MB Quarts. I got a little better sound but still it is limited and not like the HK system in terms of base. The speakers are better but maybe the stock amp is the limiting factor. I may add an amp later and see what that would do- probably alot.

Thanks again for the pictures.

 

If the stock HK speakers are running at 2ohms isn't that a limiting factor for aftermarket speakers running on the HK amp?

 

absolutly Darksky! If you want to do a straight up replacement, you'll have to install "2 ohm" speakers to keep the amp power simliar, plus maintain the integrity of any passive circuity.

Interesting to see the rear speakers are a dual voice coil woofer!

 

I checked the stock speakers and all of them say 5 ohms 15W on the back of the magnets.
The MB Quarts that I added are 4 ohms.

I checked the listing I have for MB Quarts and all of the speakers for the Q Line, Premium Line, Reference Line and Discus Line are 4 ohms except for the subwoofers that are either 2x4 or 4/8.

A "dual voice coil woofer" and a "coaxial mid-tweeter"-interesting.

Thanks for bringing that up. :smile:

 

I did find this article about matching amps to speakers and speaker impedance

http://www.avit.co.nz/Speaker_Facts/v7no2.htm

 

Minihune,
Thanks for comments ... if I change out the speakers I will definitely replace the amp also - the only way I think to get the full sound range back to all four locations.

Still don't know if I need a separate sub; most amps seem to offer something like 4x100, or reduced 4x55 with a separate 1x100 or higher for a sub.
Will I notice "only" 55W to each main speaker compared with 100W?

(Still not really off-topic either, since I plan to use MB Quarts as the replacements)

 

I, too, really like a rear soundstage. Since I have alot of bass hitting from the boot, it's important to me that it carries higher frequencies from behind me to keep the boom from becoming mushy.

I'm using Pioneer TS-A6985 6x9 260 WATT rears. They are a 4 way design: foamed IMPP (Injection Molded Polypropylene) woofer with ferrite magnet, 7/8" PET (silver film) dome tweeter, 2-3/8" pearl polycarbon balanced dome midrange and a 3/4" PET dome supertweeter. 93 dB with a frequency response of 25-30,000 Hz! I love 'em!!



R

 

Iancull-
If you replace the amp and are comparing 4x100 vs 4x55 plus 1x100 for the sub just check to make sure that the power ratings are the same (RMS power vs Peak Power) and check the total harmonic distortion. The cleaner the power and lower the distortion, the better the signal can get to the speakers. Having efficient speakers also helps.
I made a small table for the front MB Quarts since you are still considering them

MB Quart Line Model number Tweeter/Woofer Sz Power Handling W Freq Resp Hertz Sensitvity (dB/1W)
Q Line QSD 213 25mm/13cm-5.25" 70-150W 50-32,000 85
Q Line QSD 216 25mm/16cm-6.5" 90-170W 35-32,000 85.5

Premium Line PSD 213 25mm/13cm-5.25" 40-100W 52-32,000 85.5
Premium Line PSD 216 25mm/16cm-6.5" 60-130W 38-32,000 87

Reference Line RSD213 25mm/13cm-5.25" 40-100W 52-32,000 87
Reference Line RSD216 25mm/16cm-6.5" 60-130W 38-32,000 87

Discus Line DSD213 19mm/13cm-5.25" 35-90W 55-32,000 85
Discus Line DSD216 19mm/16cm-6.5" 50-120W 40-32,000 85.5
Discus Line DKC169 6x9 60-140W 35-32,000 87

I think you will get the best sound by matching your speakers with your amp so consider the whole picture and think about what would be the limiting factor. Amp vs speakers?

For the Rears you'll have to decide between something basic like the Discus line DKC 169 that I bought vs considering some heavy modification and cutting of the metal panels or perhaps squeezing a component tweeter/midrange 5.25" or 6.25" speaker into the 6x9 opening. From the inside of the car it might not look as clean if you mount the tweeter in a new cut out area- on the other hand it would be a great looking upgrade. For the stealth look so thieves are not tempted then what about mounting a 6.25" in the 6x9 opening and making a custom mount for the 25mm tweeter to fit in the remaining open space of the 6x9 opening. Consult with your local stereo installation shop for more ideas. This will take longer as well because of the mounting of the crossover in addition to cutting and or fashioning a custom mount. Just an idea.

Because you mentioned about having a "balanced" front/rear sound stage I thought about making both front and rear tweeter/midrange installs. Except because the opening in the back is already 6x9 you could consider bigger 6.25" speakers for the rears. Heck if you are not averse to cutting you might be able to mount component 6.25" matching speakers in the FRONT and rears. How"s that for balanced sound stage. More ideas. I'm brainstorming.

 

Image Dynamics ( http://www.imagedynamicsusa.com ) offers their components in 2ohm loads. I've personally never heard them, but understand that they are quite good, especially if you like smooth silk-dome tweeters.

 

>>I'm using Pioneer TS-A6985 6x9 260 WATT rears. They are a 4 way design: foamed IMPP (Injection Molded Polypropylene) woofer with ferrite magnet, 7/8" PET (silver film) dome tweeter, 2-3/8" pearl polycarbon balanced dome midrange and a 3/4" PET dome supertweeter. 93 dB with a frequency response of 25-30,000 Hz! I love 'em!!
>>
>>R

What about these then?
TS-E6995

 

>>>>I'm using Pioneer TS-A6985 6x9 260 WATT rears. They are a 4 way design: foamed IMPP (Injection Molded Polypropylene) woofer with ferrite magnet, 7/8" PET (silver film) dome tweeter, 2-3/8" pearl polycarbon balanced dome midrange and a 3/4" PET dome supertweeter. 93 dB with a frequency response of 25-30,000 Hz! I love 'em!!
>>>>
>>>>R
>>
>>What about these then?
>>TS-E6995


Those are 3 ways, not 4 ways. But the specs seem good. The lack the supertweeter, so it won't be quite as snappy, but still clear and crisp.

R

 

Or what about these for the rears?
http://www.mobilcaraudio.com/catalog...3328/88289.htm

A stereo installer told me that it is more difficult to make good 6x9 three way speakers than it is to make good 6x9 2 way speakers. Does it have to do with the mounting of the speakers over the large 6x9?

 

Those would be ok for a lower power application. But they don't get low enough for my tastes, only 30hz. Trust me when I say that there is a BIG difference between 25 and 30hz. At 30hz you're getting low, but not the real sub frequencies.

R