what size speakers are in the doors? and what size are they in the rear? as i want to upgrade the system, but not sure what size speakers i need. thanx for the help
ja

 

the front mid/bass drivers use an esoteric mounting system, and require an custom mounting spacer for aftermarket. Their approximate equivalent is a 5 1/4" driver. The rear's are much simpler, and are a standard 6x9".

Take a look around this Audio forum, you'll find lots of useful info and pictures.
Cheers,
Ryan

 

so the front are 5.25 while the tweeters are 1"? so the i went to a few sites, and typed in my vehicle, and they say that the fronts are 4". why is that, and how can i fit a 5.25 in there?
thanx
ja

 

I just received and tested the stock speakers today. The front woofer is a 5.25", and is integral with a bracket/spacer. If you upgrade the speakers, you or your installer should fabricate a similar spacer for the speakers you choose. I don't know how to include pictures in these posts, but if you send me a PM with your e-mail I'll send pictures.

Since the front speaker is on a bracket, it really opens up the possibility of a variety of sizes of upgrade speakers. I recommend a larger speaker-6.5" to 7". I have also found that it is difficult to find an aftermarket front speaker with better sensitivity, better frequency response, AND more excursion (more bass capability). Many have 1 or 2 of these better, but I really think, you need to do better in all 3 to notice significant improvements.

I don't have all the data compiled into a concise report yet, but I can share info on the stock drivers off the top of my head.

DCR/Re: 3.5 ohms
SPL 1w/1m: 89.2 dB
SPL 2 VRMS: 89.7 dB
Qt: 0.7
Fs (resonance frequency): 75 Hz
xmax: 2.5 mm
Frequency response: OK: hole at 1kHz, rough response above 4kHz, with spike at 5kHz. Response extends to 10 kHz to meet passively crossed over tweeter (1st order, capacitor).
3/4" Voice-coil, good for 20-30 watts continuous

I know most people are upgrading to the MB Quart 5.25 entry level speaker. This has less sensitivity (85 dB), a higher resonance (146 Hz), and higher Q (1.5). This means significantly less output, less bass, and strong resonance in the mid-bass.

I recommend upgrading to drivers that are known to posess same, or better, sensitivity, higher xmax (3-5 mm for 50 watts or less amp), same or lower resonance, and if you can look at the response, better response. The Focal 165V2 kit looks pretty good, but I think the crossover is too low for stable imaging (from other similar experience, not MINI specific), and the 165V2 woofer is only about the same sensitivity as the stock speaker. Its response is better, has more excursion, and will handle more power.

 

looks like the OEM drivers have good numbers, but just lacking on resolution (which is hard to "see" with just T/S parameters)

Tim, have you measured spectral decay or impulse or step responses yet?

Cheers,
Ryan

 

Not yet. I've had such a hard time finding drivers that are more efficient, more dynamic (less distortion when driven hard), and have better response that I haven't got that into the "finer points" yet.

Since nice spectral decay and impulse/step response directly relate to a clean (resonance free) frequency response (they're transforms of the same data) I can say that they're probably not as pretty as the drivers you use at home. (I'll send you what I have, but it's still a growing data set) The 1kHz resonance is similar to that of the Vifa mg18wk09-04.

My feeling is, and I'm sure we might disagree here, that tonality (basic spectral balance-good bass and treble extension and even octave to octave balance) is #1, and dynamics (ability to play at satisfying levels without objectionable distortion) #2, in most folks satisfaction with an audio system. I also feel that differences in spectral decay, between drivers, would be swamped by the spectral decay or resonating trim, sheet metal, and the spectral decay of such a small acoustic space (standing waves and reverberant sound is going to build in less than 16 ms, and take 50 ms to decay. Unelss the music is very transient the build and decay of reverberant field will mask build and decay of driver resonances)

I'm not saying don't look for improvements here, my recommendation is to prioritize efficiency, and dynamic capability (ability to play louder without objectionable harmonic and modulation distortion), and don't give up your low end to get one or the other of these. The stock driver is pretty efficient, but falls short in dynamics.

More data to come.

 

thanx for the long post. so what you are saying is that if i either remove or make a bigger bracket, i can fit bigger speakers? well, that good to know. then i guess that is what i will do. as i am the installer, and don't see any point to bring it to a pro to run some wires. again thanx for the informative post. as for the front speakers go, i'm going with crystal components. and either the jl stealth box, memphis of eclipse for a sub. not sure what i'm doing for rear speakers yet. and as for the head unit, it's either kenwood or eclipse. amps, will be dependent on somethings. i will do the jl amp with their sub if i go that route, and then not sur what amp for the speakers yet. still researching. if you have suggestions to any of these please let me know.
thanx
ja

 

If you're adding amplification to the front speakers, then greater efficiency/sensitivity is a little less important-you're adding power to gain output. There are a lot of aftermarket drivers with the same sensitivity, and better dynamic performance.

Efficiency has to do with SPL per unit POWER (watts) input, sensitivity has to do with SPL per VOLT input-its important because many automotive audio radios and amplifiers are limited in their voltage output, and derive their advertised power from the ability to drive lower impedance speakers. If you connect a 4 ohm speaker, for example, you may only be drawing half the expected power, and may not achieve the higher SPL you're after. So even in a "higher power" system it's important to consider efficiency/sensitivity considering your radio/amps capabilities. (assuming your objectives include the ability to play louder, cleanly)

It's most important to find an efficient driver when you're limited to an 8.5 VRMS/12 Vpeak head-unit-it's this situation where careless "upgrading" can result in compromised performance. Trading low end for extra midrange SPL or vice versa seems to be the most common compromise, and its one I don't think most people realize they're making.

If you're doing the work yourself, and feel comfortable removing door trims, etc., then I'd definately recommend 6.5" or 7" speakers. They can move more air with the same stroke (xmax) as a smaller driver, and depending on the design this either translates into more efficiency or more low end capability. In your case, with the sub, I'd look for more efficiency.

 

here are the specs for the components i am looking at for the front:
Crystal Mobilesound CSc 60 S/T
Component Systems
Woofer 6.5" (165mm) PPY Injected Cone
Tweeter 1" (25mm) dome
Peak Power Handling 150 Watts
RMS Power Handling 75 Watts
Sensitivity 90 dB
Impedance 4 ohm
Frequency Response 60Hz - 21KHz
Crossover Second-order Linkwitz-Riley
Crossover Frequency 4500 Hz
Cut-out diameter 5 5/8" (143mm)
Mounting depth 2 1/2" (63mm)
what do you think?
any any suggestions for rear speakers and amps would be great as well.
thanx
ja

 

Looks OK. They haven't published a lot of data. The sensitivity/efficiency is about the same as the speaker it's replacing. It probably has more excursion, so you'll get more low end. I get concerned with drivers with "bullet" phase plug things. A dust-cap does a good job of "bracing" the cone, and helping with a clean upper frequency response (above 1500 Hz). You can achieve a nice frequency response with a "bullet", but this retailer provides no data one way or the other.

I know a 3500-4500 Hz crossover is typical of most kits out there, but this often leads to instable imaging. Mids and highs can pull to the near-side. This is annoying on voices and snare drums, where voice fundamental frequuencies are pretty well centered, but consonants and sibilance (on voices) causes the image to "snap" to the nearest tweeter. I usually find a higher crossover helps. I don't know if this would be the case on the MINI or not, but be open to experimenting if the image exhibits this behavior.

You may want to ask them for the following:
half-space frequency response curves
Thiele-Small (pronounced teal-small) parameters including (at a minimum)
Fs (resonance frequency)
BL (magnetic force factor)
DC Resistance (4 ohm can be 2.7-4.5 ohms DCR)

You won't likely get it. I've asked a lot of well-thought-of companies for this data and have been told most "We don't have it". For each, I offer to get it for them if they loan me a driver, but get no response. Makes me wonder how many are "engineering" drivers toward performance goals and how many are "assembling" drivers toward appearance goals (and are afraid to publish performance data).

I really haven't gotten around to considering the rear speakers, I'll have data later this week, and I really don't know aftermarket "stuff" that well... 50 watts will drive most mid-bass drivers to their limit, if not high-pass filtered, but even 50 watts should probably be high-passed around 50 hz. A 80 Hz high pass will let you use more like 100 watts. Pick an amp with a variable high-pass filter-I think most of them have this. Find out how your amp makes its power-will it deliver xx watts into 4 ohms, or does it need a 2 ohm speaker?

 

>>Mounting depth 2 1/2" (63mm)

Just a tip: I haven't done my install yet, but from the other posts I've read about the replacement of door speakers I came up with this formula for the spacers needed (if you make them):

Spacer thickness = speaker mounting depth - 1 3/4"

So your mounting depth of 2 1/2" would need a spacer 3/4" thick in order to clear the window mechanism behind it as well as stay inside of the stock speaker grill.

Hope that's helpful.

 

ok, so i kinda get what you are saying. however, you are also getting mor einto it than i ever thought of doing. you seem to be more technical i this than i am. so i guess what i can do is ask for your opinions and what to go with. so what do yo think a good component set would be for our car? as i want something that sounds good when loud and not so loud. canhandle anything from hip-hop to electronica, to rock. i listen to a wide variety of music. so what is your opinion on a good component set? also here is another set of components that i was considering. they are the same company, but i'm not sure about teh specs as i haven't compared them yet.
Crystal Mobilesound Cpe 60
Component Systems

Woofer 6.5" (165mm) Beaded Paper Cone
Tweeter .5" (13mm) silk dome tweeter
Peak Power Handling 130 Watts
RMS Power Handling 65 Watts
Sensitivity 90 dB
Impedance 4 ohm
Frequency Response 80Hz - 21KHz
Crossover Second-order Linkwitz-Riley
Crossover Frequency 4500 Hz



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technical specs are all well and good, but speakers are hugely subjective, you need to listen to them!!! those crystals run $120-160, which is still a good amount of change. it would really suck to install them and then realize you don't like them.


i have the focal 165ks and love them, but they really need external amplification to sound good. trying to run aftermarket speakers off the stock headunit (without any amplification) is quixotic IMHO, there's not enough power to create solid, clear sound.

 

Do the focal 165k2 s fit with out modifying the door panel? Is thier a huge difference between the ks and k2s ?

 

Tim, the continued work is appreciated!
I do agree with you on prioritizing goals, and I'm sure you understand that the system is only as good as its' weakest aspect. No good having the "perfect" driver if your baffle has a huge Ql and the whole interior has nasty resonances!

Cheers,
Ryan