I just came back from a rather intelligent dealership. My salesman, Dennis Miniero (honest, thats his name) is a big fan of the mini, owns 2 of them, and goes on those drives up Mt wash and all that.

he does NOT own LSD. he COULD get it, and I say, quite easily.
He suggested that it is only for track times and racing. Fast driving around town and showing off, he said that it really doesnt do anything.

I believe him. FWD cars already have LSD. LSD option is just a faster hit on the slip differential vs some lag time. You can light up both of the tires in a mini from a stop. thats limited slip. rwd limited slip posi was more pronounced in its efect as if you didnt have it, it would take a bit longer to kick in. still would though.

500 for dsc for me. 500 for lsd might be not purchased oddly enough.!???

 

Bump. Any response to El Jefe's comment?

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Lots of us here know Dennis. He used to be a Core Moderator on NAM, and I met him at MOTD-2004...very nice guy. I respectfully disagree with him, though, on his comment that LSD doesn't really do anything. Like I mentioned in an earlier post, I have a 2003 MCS, and have a visiting 2006 MCS with the LSD. The LSD is a wonderful option, and is especially impressive when the DSC has been turned off. The handling on the MINI is great to begin with, but with the LSD, it drives exactly where you point it, no understeer, no oversteer...just so perfectly, exactly where you put it.

 

Hm, yes, he was one of the core's on here. and yes indeed he is a super nice guy. hm... if i follow everyones suggestion I will be in the poor house when i sign the contract tomorrow...

 

But it will be such a happy poor!

 

I just know that DSC makes the snow driving I do just that much easier. I've flipped it off and on while snow driving and the difference is astounding. When I'm going to work in the morning I don't want to have to worry about sliding through an intersection against a red light. The DSC makes the a snow covered street feel almost like just a wet street. Just for that I think it's worth it.

I don't believe it has ever kicked in at any other time, as I am not a 'Sunday mountain twisty driver' guy. And if it did and I didn't know it, then so much the better.

My .16 bit.

 

no offence to him or dennis, but i think everybody here knows that is simply wrong. LSD has been explained well several times in this thread.

that wasn't one of them.

 

While the technical explanation may have been iffy - mainly in that even without the LSD there is some sort of limited slip stock, which I'm pretty sure is wrong... but the general idea might not be that far off. If you're not trying to power out of a turn really hard, you'll probably never notice the benefits of the LSD. On a track / autocross, sure, it will help a lot. Daily driving at a responsible pace, probably not.

And, there are some detriments to having the LSD. It's will increase the drivetrain loss in the car (you'l actually have slightly less wheel horsepower, very very slightly). I think it also limits the tendency of the steering wheel to return to center when coming out of a turn... but that might be true on other cars more than the MINI. I've read people say that you almost have to actively "un-turn" the wheel when coming out of a turn.

I've never driven a MINI with LSD, so I'm probably completely wrong. :D

 

This is just flat out BS! the reaction time of these systems is faster than the human, and the ability to brake each wheel independantly is a control option not even avialable to the driver. Many times, the system will save your *** before you have time to pucker! Also, for spirited driving on the street, I've never seen a windy road with corner workers towarn of that spot of gravel right around the blind turn.

What it all comes down to is this. These two features give each and every driver additional benefit in certain situations. There is no driver in the world that can't be helped by these system.

Look at the Ubersports cars. They have these systems, and now they are coming out with variable system (from grandma to hang out the tail a bunch before intervening). There will be more of this, not less, and our cars will be better, and safer for it. (and it does all come down to programming. The Minis system slows the car around a lap, some of the other cars can be driven faster by almost all driver with the systems....)

I find it better to think about these things like insurance deductables. Sure the car is cheaper with out the options, but down the road you may pay more as you get in trouble that could have been avioded with the options. Each answer is based on each individuals particular situation and preferences.

Figure out your own cost/risk tolerance, and act accordingly.

FWIW, I will never leave an option like this off a street driven car, if it's available. Track car might get a different answer.

Matt

 

I don't have either option and have enjoyed the ride without them. I also turn off the ASC often (for sure I could live without that one).

On the other hand I've data logged wheel speed on my vehicle and on another MCS with both options over the same section of hard curved road; LSD made an improvement in both percieved traction and in objective wheel hook-up.

 

are only true if your streets have no puddles, oil, gravel, dirt, snow, ice or any other items of this type...

Also center return tendancies depend on more than just LSD or not, allignment and type of differential make the difference. For those that have ever driven a car with a Detroit Locker, you'll know what I mean.

Matt

 

Incorrect.
You can light up both tires from a stop because both tires have approximately the same amount of friction. A test of an LSD is to have one tire on pavement, the other on ice. No LSD, no go - almost all the torque would be applied to the wheel with the least friction, and the wheel on ice would spin wildly. FWD cars do NOT inherently have LSD.
That doesn't mean you need LSD, but you are wrongly informed.

 

That was pretty interesting. Did you notice that the test was done at 70 mph? Guess that's the nut behind the wheel there. Pretty darned fast for the conditions if you ask me. If you drive according to the conditions you'd have no problem. I'll take a nice set of real snow tires, you can keep your Nanny's.

 

avoid excesive wheel spin around corners and you shouldn't slide of the mountain ;] DSC is a pain in taking off if your attempting anything over a crawl...

 

I think the traction control is something that the individual driver is going to have to try out and decide for themselves if it's a problem or not. I leave mine on all the time when I'm driving on public roads, and it basically never does anything, unless I'm being a bone-head.

And, like many have said, not getting DSC because the traction control is annoying is a strange decision. When you don't get DSC, you still get traction control (on an MCS, I believe the Cooper can be ordered without ASC+T), so you aren't solving the problem by not getting DSC. Granted, if you're always going to turn it off, you might as well save the money and not order DSC.

I'm in the pro-DSC camp. I've even used it on the track a few times at HPDE instructional events when I'm learning a new track. Once I get the track layout memorized, I turn it off. And in the snow, it's a great feature.

 

The Mini is so unforgiving...Like a Porsche...in fact even more so) ...I like having the DSC JUST IN CASE! Do not have the LSD but I would have liked it.

If you just make one little slip...DSC can save you a lot of grief...And I am still experimenting with "the Limits" of the car!....I have not had it engage yet...but peace of mind is there! If it ever gets out to play in the snow (doubtful but...it would be switched off when starting)
Just my 2 cents

 

I'm not a weight weenie, but I'm interested in the overall weight that a car carries because, if significant enough, it may affect handling. Does anyone know the weight of the DSC and LSD?

Thanks.

 

Get them both if you can afford it. If you can only get one... then get the LSD. It is not just for the track...
The DSC is good to have.. you NEVER know when you might need it. Thats the point of the whole system. All the driving skill in the world won't help you if you are not prepared or react quick enough.
I have attended BMW's advanced driving school in SC. The DSC does work and is quite effective in real use... They put us in situations with the DSC on and off... Almost everyone spun out and off the wet course with the system off. With it on, the car was easy to control and keep on track..
The LSD is a bargain @ $500 and should be standard on the S. The DSC is a bit pricey but worth it if it ever comes into play.

 

Both systems are not much of a weight penalty.. The DSC uses existing systems except for a few sensors and programming... The LSD is worth the extra weight... but its not much at all.

 

Anyone that doesnt take DSC after that video is unwise. That is what one calls: Proof!

jeez. i am 100% getting that on the mini tomorrow. Now, atsc is supposed to be "Retarded" lol, probably is, if you arent on ICE! Or, you plan on doing something dangerous for a lil spurt. (like roaring into a trafic situatoin at a bizarre angle, common enough to turn it off for that during dry and daytime)

I am still thinking about LSD.

is it any SAFER? that is my question now. Also, does it do anything on moderately fast turn vs a very fast turn? (one at like 35mph right angle vs like 50mph, or is it truly felt 100% better in both situations?)

 

I'm not arguing against DSC, but that video showed a car speeding at 70 mph in the snow. I won't be doing that, especially here in the Bay Area California.

 

It could be safer depending upon the situation. It will provide better traction in adverse conditions... you never know when it might come in handy... You might really be pushing your car someday and need the extra traction, in a turn, powering out of a sharp corner, or blasting away from a red light... in the ice or slipperly wet roads.
Look at it this way... An after market LSD is about $1200 plus installation... or a factory installed warranted unit for $500... It is well worth the cost and really a necessary option for the S

 

The first week I had my MCS, some jackass pulled out right in front of me in an Isuzu. He saw me after he pulled out and I guess it scared him, so he FROZE UP and STOPPED with the road blocked. I was on the brakes for all they were worth....my quick calculation led me to believe that I'd be down to 15-20 mph when I T-Boned him.... I saw a road to the right (full of gravel, but no other cars). I whipped into that road figuring that cleaning out a ditch is better than hitting another car. The MCS just made the turn like it was the most natural thing in the world...no tire squealing, no drama, just turned like normal. The DCS light was flashing like mad!

From that moment, I have been a big fan of DSC. I do think that the ASC+T (wheelspin) component of the system is a little too agressive. I regularly climb a mountain via a gravel road, and I always turn off the DSC going up that road, and I've been victim once or twice of abrupt power loss after pulling out and hitting gravel or a puddle. Nothing's perfect, and nothing's a good substitute for common sense, but DSC is a really good idea (on cars where there's a switch to de-activate it at will).

LSD, the simple version....

With LSD, your car is 2 wheel drive. Without LSD, your car becomes ONE wheel drive as soon as you break loose the wheel with the least amount of traction. (One wheel on ice, one on pavement...you ain't going anywhere) Same thing applies if you're powering out of a tight turn. The inside wheel spins, the outside tire gets no more torque and the car falls on its face. With LSD, just keep on pulling!

Rawhyde

 

on this topic never cease to amaze me. "I don't need no stinkin' driving aids! They are for pussies!" or "I took a class, I'm good enough and don't need it" Rawhide has it completely right. Sure, if everything you ever have or ever will do is scripted with no surprises, give these items a pass. But this is real life. There are unplanned surprises. These systems help.

20 years from now, those that are down on these systems will probably be viewed like those who said seat belts were less safe because you couldn't get thrown clear of the accident...... Or that airbags are bad because the increased cost of the car would keep anyone from buying one. Or that Arsenic really is a cure for headaches.... Or on and on and on.

Matt

ps. If you can't afford the car without them, that's one thing. But if you can afford them and pass on them, that is certainly another.....

 

My position is the former. It's why I started the thread. It has nothing to do with testosterone, as mine has been dwindling since I hit puperty.

Perhaps in 20 years I can afford to put DSC into my cars, but then I'm sure I'll have to contend with some other safety device option, such as teletransportation of occupancies during impact (TODI).

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