Maybe the LSD does make the DSC less intrusive, since it improves traction under acceleration. But, until you've had the DSC override your inputs at a really bad time, you may not understand why many of us are disabling it even when we have no intention of "driving like a madman".

After all, no matter how "smart" the software is, only the driver knows the circumstances.

 

Yes, that's true,especially when cornering.

I just ordered both. DSC is a no brainer IMHO. You can turn it off, and you can't mimic what it does--no driving class on this earth can teach you how to variably brake each wheel. You'd have to have four seperate brakes. Interesting concept, but not a mod I'm interested in.

 

I know I'll get flames for this, but...

DSC is not the hyperactive child intent on getting you killed that people make it out to be.

90% of the complaints come from the computer cutting power when trying to get moving from a standstill quickly - like merging into traffic or turning left across traffic. In those cases, launch quickly with bad pavement / dirt / water / etc, and the computer will detect wheelspin and try to minimize it by cutting power. Very predictable, if you ask me. Of course, I drive a Cooper, not an S, and have realtively sticky tires on it in the summertime - so I can barely sping the tires when I'm trying to. :D

To be completely honest, what gets most people into trouble is the ASC+T (traction control), not DSC (dynamic stability control). But since you cannot turn traction control off and keep stability control on, they usually get lumped together when talking about things. Since a Cooper S will always come with traction control, opting out of the DSC on an S will not remove the problem most people are complaining about.

 

Word 2 tha *****.

 

Does anyone other than yourself drive the car?

If so do you trust that they can make the right choices if there is a problem with controlling the car?

DSC is a great safety net for those rare times that the car starts to go beyond it's handling limits.
Lets say, for whatever reason, you drift off the road just a bit. Both passenger tires off the pavement, you notice this and correct yourself to get back on the pavement, If you don't do it right you could end up overcorrecting and crash your car. DSC helps this not to happen.
DSC is there to stop the single car accident, alot of which people get killed in.
It is great peace of mind for the price.

 

As on all the other threads discussing this subject (there are probably 50 on Mini2 and NAM combined), there are strong opinions in both "camps". If you want DSC go ahead and get it, but take a driving school either way! :smile:

 

As snid mentioned, ASC and DSC are two different systems. ASC is your traction control and controls just that. If you are taking off too fast this is what will take control by letting up on the power. DSC is stability control and comes in play when the car is not tending in the direction that you wish it to go. This is generally done by applying brakes at one or two wheels to straighten out the vehicle. Both systems are inteded to increase your performance and can work together to do so. With no traction you are not going anywhere and with no stability you are not going where you want to. As with any saftey feature, you really do not need it until the situation comes around. How often do you really need a saftey belt?
Think of ACS as traction and DSC as your yaw and acceleration with respect to your direction of travel.

For more general information about DSC, take a look at http://www.bosch-esperience.com/ (select UK for english). ESP is just the BOSCH name for it.

 

Just a silly question for those with DSC experience. Does anyone know of a track test, preferably with the MINI, comparing times with and without DSC activated? I know the first time I autocrossed a car with ABS I learned that when I go into a corner too hot and the ABS kicks in, its because I went into the corner too hot - ABS or no.

After I got used to ABS, I got my heart going in a rental on the autobahn on the way to Munich. The car did not have ABS, and when a VW van pulled out in front of me when I was going 180KPH I momentarily locked up all 4 tires.

 

Thanks for all of your input to my DSC question, I really appreciated all your views. I did order my Minin Cooper S Convertible on Friday with the DSC, delivery is expected mid Dec to mid Jan, can't wait. coco

 

I ended up gettting both DSC and LSD, but I live in Colorado and can expect to slip and slide once in a while. If you can afford it, not going to race, get DSC, in can't hurt and when you need it, you NEED it.

Just my .05 (inflation from .02)

 

This speaks volumes. Count me in the anti-DSC group. ASC is almost too intrusive for me as well. Jimbo

 

No flames I like DSC in principle. It's neither a silver bullet which can save us from ourselves nor a psycho killer always trying to kill us . It's a tool. Under the right circumstances it can be really valuable. The key is having it enabled at that "right" time. I completely agree that DSC/ASC is attempting to detect & minimize wheelspin. My issue with it is around the amount of power that it cuts, since it can leave you dead in the water, so to speak.

Having been a user of BMW's products for a number of years, I've come to the conclusion that design decisions are oftentimes slanted too far to the lowest common denominator and that the legal and marketing departments drive the end result more than they did in years past, certainly more than I prefer. I have no doubt that the engineers could just as easily made it less intrusive and more geared toward spirited driving. But if they made the DSC/ASC allow a little more wheelspin before cutting power, or if they didn't cut as much power, allowing the driver more control... it might be a little harder to defend in court

I wish there was a software mod that would bias the DSC/ASC toward performance driving... or selectable modes... I doubt it would be especially tough or expensive. Since it's not available... it's gotta be a legal thing. Until it is, I'll just be selective about when I enable it.

This is a fantastic point You are so right.

 

A Mini with DSC/ASC on is significantly slower at a track than with these systems turned off. I can't remember the exact time differential as tested by Randy Webb at Second Creek, but it is at least two seconds per lap (on a tight twisty course that takes a Mini about 80 sec).

 

The car can control you or you can control your car.... take your pick.


Its all about Ian Cull's track mode DSC circuit.... it simply defaults the DSC off instead of ON.

Traction Control is great! when other people are driving your car.

 

Its a safety feature and it gives me a more safe feeling in the rain. I dont get snow here but if you do... Mine goes off alot in the rain and I'm thankful for it.

 

 

Life's just too short to drive without wheelspin

Seriously, I've found the DSC very intrusive, not just during aggressive driving in the twisties but in my daily commute. I drive through Beverly Hills on Sunset Boulevard most mornings. It's a twisty road with 2 narrow lanes each way and lots of bumps & minor potholes. In the morning it is bumper-to-bumper at 40-50mph (sort of like being in the pack in a road race). I used to keep DSC on during my commute. However, I had several near misses when the DSC shut down power after a bump in the middle of a turn. Now I keep DSC off except on the freeway. DSC + cornering + bumps = trouble.

 

Snid makes a great point about the difference between DSC and ACS. Now, having done the performance driving school and driving the Streets of Willow Springs with ASC both on and off, I'm more certain than ever that I want Ian's circuit to keep it switched off except perhaps when it's raining (and in SoCal that won't be often). I might actually have use for DSC without the ACS, but since that's not an option, I would have paid $500 for an something that would rarely if ever be used.

For me a part of the equation is having to turn it on or off. Right now it a regular event that I'm in the middle of an intersection and realize, angrily, that I left the ACS on. I think it's all well and good to say get DSC and just turn it and the ACS on or off depending on what kind of driving you're planning, but that seems like a sure way to frequently NOT have it set in the mode you want. Once I get Ian's circuit I won't have to worry about it -- if the weather is horrible, I'll be prompted to switch it on. Otherwise I'll know, without having to think about it, that it's up to me to keep things under control.

BTW, this is coming from someone who happily drives a '67 Mini in Los Angeles. So I guess I'm not someone who is obsessed with getting every last margin of safety, and having a car that makes decisions for me.

 

Yes, I've thought the same thing myself - if the ASC portion of DSC could be disabled, while still retaining the other portions, then I would use it a whole lot more, myself. Ian's circuit is fantastic at taking care of it for you for the 95% of the time that you don't need it though.

Exactly - but unfortunately in MCSes, you can't avoid ACS, it comes standard, and the additional DSC functions are optional. In that case, I do think it's worth buying DSC for those bad weather days.

That's exactly what I do. If the roads are slick (rain, fog or snow), I turn DSC back on. Otherwise, if the roads are dry, it stays off thanks to Ian Cull!

 

It always amazes me when I read anti-DSC/ASC post... Theres no doubt there are pitfalls of the system (like cutting power when pulling out of uneven drives) and I do turn it off in such cases but I turn it back on afterwards. I have been to over 6 driving schools in the past 3 years and know a little about driving on and past the edge of control. There is NOTHING better than DSC to keep the car in control (aka correct over/understeer) and help prevent an accident. Cars with stability control have a 56% LOWER FATALITY RATE in single vehicle crashes (Source: IIHS.org ). That speaks volumes alone. To all you "I'm too good for DSC", go try and brake individual wheels while trying to slow down around a decreasing radius turn with a semi coming head on, oh and try an do it in a couple milliseconds too...

 

Trying to bite my tongue...

Let me just say it this way: If you want to let DSC/ASC do your driving for you, fine by me. It will undoubtedly save you from something you did not anticipate at some point in time. I just hope it doesn't also leave you helpless in some other, equally critical, situation.

Having turned more laps than most, I find any safety feature that renders the car virtually incapable of making forward progress to be unacceptable and unwelcome. After you've survived your first brush with the danger of an electronically immobilized car, acting against your will (and better judgement!) for no other reason than to avoid even a little wheelspin, maybe you'll change your mind. Or not. If at that time you still don't feel like you're too good for DSC... you're probably not

 

eMINI,

You have said a mouth full & I agree with every word. I've got a few laps under my belt too. Along with quite a few rally stages. Can't imagine what the e-nanny would think of a MINI going quicky down a dirt road.

I guess I'll have to search up Ian Cull's hack for the ASC. Anyone have a link?

Chuck

 

First off, no hard feelings either way, I like these friendly argumnets.

I don't want DSC to do the driving for me. Whenever I go driving on back roads or auto-x and pushing the car, I of course turn off DSC. Another thing that I think we are miscommunicating on is DSC vs ASC. The part that saves lifes is the stability control, not the traction control. And I agree 100% that it is a pain in the a$$ to have the car halt when you are accelerating full-throttle out into a road but that is the traction control part. To solve that problem (or atleast make it much better) I got the MTH ecu mod with the traction control setting altered (it makes it a two step power down rather than cutting all the power at once). If wheel spin is detected it cuts like 75% power and then if more is detected it cuts to like 25% power (i made up the numbers but you get the idea).

The fact is that most people don't know how to control a car in an emergency situation (or any situation... ) and thus DSC is a life-saver. If you don't believe it can control the car better than you, go to an open area where you can *legally* do a wet skidpad test. This is how: On a wet day in a large lot, set up a way of marking a circle (about 50-100ft diameter) with cones or whatever (make sure they won't damage your car), turn OFF DSC and drive around the outside of the circle while gently accerating until your car starts to loose traction and understeer. You can control your car's turning radius solely with throttle, more throttle=larger circle. Try and keep at the edge of control. Now try it with DSC on... And yes, I have done this, many times.

 

Yep, especially when it leads to a shared increase in knowledge.

I had heard of that aspect of the MTH software before. I'm not sure why none of the other ecu mods aren't doing it as well. Liability concerns maybe? In any case, it sounds like a nice solution, one I probably need to check into.

I've done this little exercise as a driver and as an instructor at several new driver car control clinics conducted by BMW CCA & Xtreme Measures. We typically set up skid pads that are made slippery by water trucks putting down a solution of soapy water. However, I have not done this in the MINI. I understand you to say that the MINI is under better control with DSC enabled, as expected. But out of curiosity, do you also find that it's a tick or two slower as well?

 

You guys are all funny, trying to prove yourself and your ideas to the others. Don't you notice that both have valid points. Just cut the BS, back to the VERY FIRST THREAD: The guy does not race, autocross nor drives fast, he asked a simple question, you all f...d it up. Gimme a break, who cares how many laps you have under your belt, or how many rallies you had does not mean s....t to me. Keep in mind, it is simple, there is a DSC button, if you don't need it, switch it off.