Check out their website Mobil 1 for details on all Mobil 1 products.

Chris.

 

My wife tells me what oil to use. Seriously. Mind you she's spent 20 years in lubricants for a national oil company most of it in field R&D. What she tells me is that Mobil 1 is mostly hype. They invented the term Synthetic have tried to restrict use of the term (see Castrol lawsuit) and invested lots of advertising $ telling everyone is that synthetic is best.

Well sometimes it is sometimes its not. What she found unusual in the Mini is that the owners manual did not reveal the specification of oil that should be used. Basically any oil blended to a specfication will perform to that spec. Some companies spend a lot of time meeting the specification minimum, others blend oils that surpass the stated specs.

When asked if Sythetic oil was worth the extra $ her response was:
1) in the winter yes because it almost always has a lower pour point and requires less cranking power at cold temps. In other words a sythetic 5W-30 will start more easliy at - 30 than a fossil 5W-30 ( we've used 0-30 for about 10 years, in three differnent vehicles fro this very reason)
2) If you prolong your service intervals you should use synthetic

So I ask, since I'm old fashioned and like to change my oil often, should I use synthetic? Your wasting your money she tells me. Perhaps over a very long time ie 500,000kms you would experience increased varnishing with a high quality fossil oil, but a frequently changed high quality fossil oil will have less dirt and likely less wear versus long service synthetic simply because it is frequently changed.

Other notes from our conversation:
We changed our oil after the break in period.
There is no industry accepted technical definition of Synthetic
Hydrocracked fossil oils are VERY high quality
The oil specifications are what is relevant not what the oil is made from.
Remember someone has to pay for all that advertising and that someone is you.
Theres no more oil in the quaker state.
Castrol is a rebranded but custom refined high quality oil (at least in Canada)
Hydrocrackers are very expensive.
Get your used oil tested before your warranty expires.
It makes sense to stick with one brand of high quality oil, although moving from the sythetic to the fossil between winter and summer is OK.

No warranty expressed or implied with these comments .

 

No disrespect to your wife, but she's a little out on her history and facts..

1877
C. Friedler and J.M. Crafts synthesize the first "synthetic" hydrocarbons.

1913
Friedrich Bergius in Germany develops Hydrogenation process for production of synthetic oil from coal dust

1921
Standard Oil in USA produces one barrel of synthetic oil from one ton of shale rock

1921
Friedrich Bergius in Germany develops commercial process for hydrogenation of coal to synthetic oil

1925
In Germany Franz Fisher and Hans Tropsch develop Synthetic Oil industrial production process

1926
I.G. Farben acquired the patent rights to the Bergius hydrogenation process for production of synthetic oil from coal

1927
I.G. Farben's Leuna works start synthetic oil production

1929
Standard Oil of Indiana makes the first attempt at commercial development of synthetic hydrocarbons
Many gallons of synthetic oil were made by polymerization of different olefins.

1930-34
Union Carbide and Carbon Corp develop and investigate the applications of water soluble Polyalkylene Glycol (PAG)

1931
Nobel Prize for Chemistry:
Friedrich Bergius & Carl Bosch
Invention and development of chemical high pressure methods (used for synthetic oil production)

1932
I.G. Farben investment into synthetic fuels production from coal

1936
Adolf Hitler in Germany starts Major synthetic fuels and oil program

1937
First Polyalphaolefins were synthesized

1939
Fischer-Tropsh process that used carbon monoxide and hydrogen to make synthetic oils and fuels was commercialized in Germany

1942-45
PAG synthetic oils used in fleets and commercial vehicles

1944-1954
10% of German supply of lubricating oil is "synthetic", made by using three different processes

1944
US Army aircraft operating in Alaska and Canada use PAG engine oils

1944-45
The idea of using colloidal solids in synthetic fluids for lubrication of the first jet engines is tested and researched in Germany

1946
National Carbide Company, Inc. markets the "First" commercial PAG engine oils - Prestone Motor Oil

1946
New York Power & Light Corp uses PAG engine oils in variety of their commercial vehicles.

1942-1955
Diester oils are used in turbine engines because Petroleum oil simply was inadequate to meet the demands of these engines.

1962
Texaco produces Synthetic Aircraft Turbine Oil

1962-66
U.S. Army experiences significant problems in operating vehicles and equipment in Alaska with MIL-L-10295 Lubricating Oil.

1965
Mobil introduces fully synthetic grease

1966
First Syn! Synthetic Super Lubricants produced in Canada

1966
Motul introduces first semi-synthetic motor oil in France

1968
U.S. Army develops MIL-L-46167 specification, which can be satisfied only with PAO synthetic oil

1969
SynLube Company is formed in Vancouver, B.C. Canada – it’s specialty the first "syn-sol".

1970’s
Arab Oil embargo prompts interest in "synthetic" oils

1971
Motul in France introduces first all-synthetic oil in Europe

1972
AMSOIL is formed and markets re-labeled MIL specification oils to motoring public through multi-level "pyramid" type organization.

1974
Mobil test markets Mobil 1 synthetic SAE 5W-20 "synthesized engine lubricant"

1976
Mobil 1 goes national in USA and changes the product description to "synthetic" motor oil

1980
Mobil introduces second generation synthetic motor oil Mobil 1 available as SAE 5W-30 and 15W-50

1982
SynLube in Canada produces first SAE 5W-50 all synthetic non-petroleum motor oil

1984
Agip in Italy introduces synthetic motor oil SAE 10W-50

1985
U.S. Army uses the MIL-L-46167 lubes in other than arctic conditions.

1986
Mobil only in Europe introduces Rally Formula Mobil 1 synthetic motor oil SAE 5W-50

1990
Quaker State introduces line of Synquest synthetic lubricants: grease NLGI No.2 GC-LB, motor oil SAE 5W-50 and gear oil SAE 75W-90

1990
Chevron introduces synthetic motor oil SAE 5W-30 and 5W-50

1992
Mobil introduces Advanced Formula Mobil 1 motor oil SAE 5W-30, 10W-30 and 15W-50

1992
Formulation of first SAE 0W-60 motor oil in Germany

1992
Valvoline introduces synthetic motor oil SAE 5W-30, 10W-30 and 20W-50

1992
CASTROL introduces Syntec SAE 5W-50 motor oil based on PAO

1993
Texaco introduces Havoline Synthetic motor oil SAE 5W-40

1993
Pennzoil introduces Performax synthetic motor oil SAE 5W-50

1993
Sunoco introduces DynaTech synthetic engine oils SAE 20W-50 and 5W-40

1993
Sta-Lube launches marketing of synthetic gear oils and synthetic industrial grease

1994
Pep Boys starts selling synthetic motor oil under their own brand name
SAE 5W-30, 10W-30 and 20W-50

1994
Petrolon introduces synthetic motor oil under Slick 50 brand name

1994
Synthoil starts marketing of SAE 10W-30 synthetic motor oil

1997
CASTROL reformulates Syntec motor oils with API Group III (petroleum) base stock from Shell

1999
Mobil introduces Mobil 1 "Tri-synthetic" version of their motor oil

1999
NAD rules that hydroisomerized base oils (Group III) can be classified as "synthetic oils"

1999
Exxon and Mobil merges to ExxonMobil.

2000
Mobil 1 introduces Synthetic-Blend motor oil

2002
Mobil 1 introduces Synthetic motor oil with SuperSyn.

2003
Mobil 1 introduces SAE 0W-30 RACING Synthetic motor oil

So please note that Castrol did have a synthetic Syntec product based on PAO, and then changed it without rebranding to one using API Group III (petroleum) base stock from Shell

Synthetic Oils - Oils produced by "synthesis" (chemical reaction) rather than by extraction or conventional refinement.

Oils that previously were NOT considered as "synthetic" such as those that are produced by "severe refining", "hydrogenation" or other complex chemical processes that yield a more stable molecular uniformity and higher degree of purity that is not achevable through normal "conventional" refining process are NOW also labeled as "synthetic" by their respective producres (SHELL, BP, SUNOCO) - they however still are made from Petroleum Crude.

These "quasi-synthetics" are almost as good as PAO but much cheaper.

Chris.

 

Maybe this is supposed to be a given....but how did you determine this?

>These "quasi-synthetics" are almost as good as PAO but much cheaper.

Chris.<

There's proof that there're almost as good and not as good? Where can I find this proof other than on the manufacture's website?

You think engine damage is being caused by MINI's choice of Castrol Syntec?


R.E.

 

Isn't that a coincidence? The German court ruled on the side of the European company (Castrol) vs the American Company (Mobil.) Isn't that a coincidence?

 

I forget what page its on, maybe its only in the service manual...but the recommended oil grade is: API SJ rating or better

 

Thanks for the Histrory lesson Chris. I will pass it on - I'm sure she can add a couple of lines. I do know we were using a Canadian manufactured 0W-30 back in the early 1990s.

Your statement:

"Oils that previously were NOT considered as "synthetic" such as those that are produced by "severe refining", "hydrogenation" or other complex chemical processes that yield a more stable molecular uniformity and higher degree of purity that is not achevable through normal "conventional" refining process are NOW also labeled as "synthetic" by their respective producres (SHELL, BP, SUNOCO) - they however still are made from Petroleum Crude. These "quasi-synthetics" are almost as good as PAO but much cheaper....

Is exactly her point. The refiners that have been using hydrocracking - which breaks down the base product into very short chains (Oops I'm getting over my head here) understand that the specification is the relevant issue in determining quality, or perhaps more accurately the oil's testing profile.

To add to you comment above, I think the "almost as good" is lingering marketing for example

Here is the Mobil1 Profile as published by Mobil: http://www.mobil.com/USA-English/Lub...bil1_5W-30.asp

Here is a "non PAO synthetic": http://www.petro-canada.ca/eng/prods...eases/6886.htm (Click on synthetic, scroll to page 2)

Virtualy no difference!

Here is a traditional oil: http://www.petro-canada.ca/eng/prods...eases/6886.htm (Click on Supreme, scroll to page 2)

Vitually the same performance except for the "Borderline Pumping Viscosity" and "Cold Cranking Viscosity"

In other words, its not the PAO vs non PAO formulation that is relevant to the consumer, it is the specification versus use and service interval.

Another intersting oil fact:
The end product of a hydrocracked oil is colourless:
http://www.petro-canada.ca/eng/prods...eases/6896.htm


Thanks for the recommended grade polmear - we looked cover to cover and all it says is use MINI oils or use Castrol under the hood. It might be a US vs Canadian manual difference.

 

As with everything in the oil wars, objective factual data is hard to find.

Manufacturers web sites should all be taken with a bucket of salt, as they do have a vested interest in promting their brand!

Looking online, you can find 3rd party reviews on oils, and again you hhave to decide whether these are truly un-biased as they claim

Paradise Garage have comments on traditional Vs synthetic, and are conducting a long term synthetic shoot out

Paradise

And there is a very good pdf article on traditional Vs synthetic oils, together with some brand comparisons here

Motor Oil Bible

And for an online forum on all lubes you should look here

The Motor Oil Site

More information than any sane MINI motorist could ever want or need about oil!

As for MINI's choice of recommending Castrol... Well that's the same as Porsche reccomending Mobil 1, it's just marketing, nothing more, nothing less.

The oil manufacturers pay to have their brand included in the car manual, or placed on a sticker in the engine bay, it's that simple.

What each of us use is of course a personal choice, but at least this discussion has highlighted the wide scope of the 'synthetic' description on oil products...

Chris.

 

Wow! What a wealth of information! After reading all of it, I'm still left with this thought: The automotive engineers that designed and tested the engine in my MCS are probably aware that 'synthetic' labeled oils are not so in the strictest sense. So as long as I'm content/convinced that the oil I choose to use meets or exceeds the performance specifications/requirements, I'm not going to worry too much about 100% purity. :smile:

That said, my car recently passed 1700 miles on the odometer, and I'm thinking about a post-breakin change. Can't hurt, I guess. The oil on the dipstick is no longer the color of pure pale honey - now shows a tinge.

Shelly

 

The Canadian references I gave are third party industry standard tests results, but yes on the manufacturer's web site.

The first two sources you reference seem to suffer from the if X is good 2X must be that much better, hence I'll pay twice as much. Not a thinking man's conclusion

Another interesting fact: Where do you think synthetic oils come from? PAOs are methanes and ethanes that are polymorzied (spelling?) So basically they are a natural energy source that is cooked up in a refining process. Hmm sounds like ... oil

The point I am trying to make is that the start point is not the relvevant issue, it is what they put in the bottle and you in your engine that's relevant.

If you want to pay more for the word "Synthetic" that is your choice. I choose to do that in the winter.

If you want to pay even more for the PAO's, or even more for the heavily marketed PAO's that is also your choice.

There are times though that highly refined traditional oils are just as good in actual use. ie Summer with shorter service intervals.

We are truely blessed that we have so much choice of quality product is just good to remember that the most expensive is not always the best.

Oh Yeah! Coke Rules!!!

 

I generally like MOBIL products including thier gasolines. However, I am finding that my MCS likes Citgo 93 octane so much better than either Mobil or Chevron 93. The car runs much smoother with version 36 of the software (Haven't upgraded to 38 yet) and the startup and idle quality on a cold engine is also significantly improved.

Before I never paid much attention to Citgo (Venezuelan sourced gasoline) but thier refinement process or the chemistry of the gas seems to be more in tune with the version 36 programming than the middle eastern fuels from Mobil and Chevron.

I have switched between these brands and Citgo consistently delivers better performance and mileage than Mobil 93 octane. Citgo premium is cheaper too.

Sorry to stray off topic.

 

I also find it very hard to believe that a company like BMW/MINI would recommend an inferior brand of engine oil for thier products. The factory Castrol oil has worked wonders so far and I have no reason as of yet to distrust the quality of their "Synthetic" factory oil.

In other words, BMW would otherwise recommend Mobil over Castrol just as easily.

To me this is more of a market share war between oil companies than actual facts about the composition and quality of thier oil products.

 

That's news to me! I thought you had to wait until 10,000 miles no matter what. 4/03 delivery with 8k miles. Better call the dealer?

regards,
Red

 

My dealer will only change the oil/filter for free within 500 miles of the 10K mile mark. My '04 MCS got its first ever oil change last week within 300 miles of 10K miles.

Yep, call your dealer before you waste a trip.

 

And here in lies the quandry...

BMW/MINI want to kep your car on the road, but don't want it to last forever, otherwise you won't buy a new one!

So do they want to recommend the best product for your engine, or maybe an adequate product to meet usual expectations, or maybe a sub-standard product to ensure you'll be having to get a new car in a resonable time

Do they recommend the oil based on price, or performance, or the amount the oil company is willing to pay them

Do they recommend the oil change interval to give you the least possible wear and tear on your engine, or to give it a reasonable life, or to kill it off for replacement within a 'few' years

If you think they have your absolute best interests at heart, then you're an optimist.

if you think it's a huge conspiracy to kill your MINI early, then you're a pessimist

And if you're somewhere in between, then you're open to the possibility that there may be:

1) A better oil available than the factory spec

2) A shorter change interval that brings benefit to the life of the engine

Just because the service interval display says it's 10,000 miles to your next service, doesn't mean that it's right!

Chris.

 

It's a good rule of thumb to replace your oil & filter every year.

So if your annual milage is low, and even though your service indicator says you have many miles to go before the next oil change, most car manufacturers reccomend that you change your oil every 12 months.

The few $$$ in oil Vs the tens of thousands you have invested in your MINI, make it a worthwhile investment on your part, even if it's not covered for FREE.

Chris.

 

My '04 MCS is 9 and bit more months old, so it did get its first oil change within the 12 month recommendation.

 

Let me throw another wrinkle into the mix. I just watched a show on TV, I think it was horsepower or something like that. They had a Camaro and did a base dyno at 302 horsepower. Then they drained the engine, transmission and differential and replaced it with Royal Purple products. The dyno showed 310 HP. 8 HP from Royal Purple:smile:

 

Royal Purple products are two things; Expensive and Good.

Adding 8 rear wheel horsepower to 302 is a 2% gain. When measuring HP at the rear wheels, there is much parasitic loss through the drivetrain. I find it plausible that using such lubricants could result in a 2% gain.

I expect that if they had changed only the transmission and rear axle lubricants the result would have been very nearly the same.

My $0.02,

 

It would have been interesting to take the engine out of the equation.

 

I called my dealer (Roadshow) last week and was told that the free oil change is covered at one year regardless of mileage. Think I'll call MINIUSA and see what they say.

R.E.

 

[QUOTE=Cooperb!]It's a good rule of thumb to replace your oil & filter every year.

"So if your annual milage is low, and even though your service indicator says you have many miles to go before the next oil change, most car manufacturers reccomend that you change your oil every 12 months.

The few $$$ in oil Vs the tens of thousands you have invested in your MINI, make it a worthwhile investment on your part, even if it's not covered for FREE."

I agree! I reluctantly bought into the 10k oil change thing, but I was surprised that that they "admitted" that it should be done by 12 months!

I don't care about "free", but I do have an email to MINi to ask what their real world policy is. I would gladly pay to move the whole 10k service up.

I don't put on much miles either (not by choice!) because of other vehicles/responsibilities (company car aargh!).

regards,
Red

 

For those of us like me who are just learning how to do all of this stuff on our MINI, could you point us to a how-to or if its easy enough just explain how-to? I have already changed my oil but I have a decent list of mods and I drive the car alot(5000/month or so). Also, is there somewhere that I could see what MINI does at each of their service intervals so that I could do them myself?

 

Data in the oil wars is VERY easy to find, specially if like the man's wife, one has spent a couple of decades in the industry or like somebody else I know very well indeed who currently leads a mutinational sales force that markets to the oil giants the very ingredients used to make all lubricants.

For those who are still a bit confused....Poly-alpha-Olephins come FROM OIL.

Hydrocracked base stocks come FROM OIL.

PAO is extracted through high pressure-high temperature cracking.......
Hydrocracking is high pressure- high termperature cracking using hydrogen as a catalyst.......

Best thing about both these fluids: Low temperature flow properties, high level of resistance to oxidation and low volatility (tendency to evaporate). Otherwise, Group one base stocks (temperature cracked) are just as good.
If you are not a nutter and change often, a top of the line mineral oil is fine. Just change it every 3K religiously in the MINI.

Synthetic blends have come into voguewith the marketers because Group I base oils have high levels of evaporation and in order to meet industry spects for volatility, they have to blend PAO, Group II, Group III, Group IV , PAO or PIO.......

 

Its pretty simple if you use a low pan you don't even need to lift the car.


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