This has been covered somewhat on seperate threads, but I can't help asking about this stuff, in the hopes of getting more opinions on the matter, regarding the value of DSC and/or LSD.

Though I've not had my current CVT MC for all that long, I'm planning on ordering an MCS stick. (Funny how we have to differentiate now, eh?) I've not driven a stick in many years, so I'm a little worried about getting one (and also strangely looking forward to it, go figure), but an automatic MCS is just too much. By getting an MCS stick, I get better performance than my CVT, at about the same cost. Actually, happily, somewhat less cost, as I'm passing on the extended service warranty this time. That gives me some breathing room, but only some, and I don't want to waste it.

Unless, I really need to.

On my CVT MC, I had the DSC option, and it certainly seemed worthwhile at times in the Winter, even if it seemed overly aggressive at times. I also liked having just one more toggle switch to fill out my dash. With an MC, I needed DSC if I was to also get ASC. However, with the MCS, that's not the case. I'm wondering how much I need DSC for in the MCS. I'm also wondering about LSD, which sounds equally handy. Any opinions?

I've not had LSD yet, in any car, that I know of, and I can't say that I've ever felt like I've been missing out by not having it. Of course, the same can be said for DSC, before driving the MC I now have! So, you can see how I'm wondering if I should bother with either of these. Unlike my MC though, the MCS will definitely have some more power, so my need for one or the other, or both, of these options may be higher. I can be very aggressive with my driving sometimes, usually with cornering, rather than with the straight-aways, being as I can only go so fast anyway...assuming I don't want to over-do my risk of getting ticketed!

I've driven a lot in Winter conditions, for years, but not with a high performance standard transmission. So, while I'm not prone to making mistakes...I may, at least for awhile, with the MCS. And, as we all know, it only takes one really bad mistake to ruin one's day! Is an LSD much of a safety factor option, or more maximum performance related? Keeping in mind, if I could've afforded it, I likely would've gone for the MCS automatic, which doesn't have an LSD option anyway. Also, as long as I have ASC with an MCS, is DSC that much more of a big deal? Is one of these options much more preferable to the other? Or, are neither? I have the Xenons in my MC I drive now, but have decided to drop them as an un-needed option for the MCS, as the base headlights will be...though not as good, they'll be good enough. And, heck, I like the look of them better anyway!

With DSC, I do get to fill out my dash toggle panel (as I'll be getting front and rear fogs), but is that worth $500? After all, I can always just throw an aftermarket toggle switch in there...even if it didn't do anything. (Even though toggle switches that actually do something are much cooler.)

Any help you can provide me here would be much appreciated. Thank you in advance for your opinions...even the flaming ones.

 

The LSD is a performance thing. DSC is a safety thing.

If you're going to do any autocross, trackdays, drag racing, whatever, you'd be insane NOT to get the LSD. Even if you're 'just sorta thinking about maybe trying something like that someday', I'd get the LSD. If you're not ever going to do anything on a closed track, it probably doesn't matter.

 

Ok, that's very helpful. I'm not ever planning on doing anything other than occasionally "spirited" street driving...on regular streets. So, that makes it sound like LSD is just not something I need, unless I were looking for a "competitive edge" sort of thing, which I'm not. I don't even do the occasional "unofficial" drag racing that some other MINI drivers feel compelled to do with drivers of other cars from time to time, though I've had one or two other drivers indicate they wanted to "play".

Thank you, this makes my decision making a little easier. (I'm sure you know how hard it can be, at least when it comes to things MINI. )

 

The LSD will help out in snow. That was my primary reason to get LSD along with a second set of rims for snow tires.

 

Get them both. They're a bargain. They'd be expensive if not impossible to install aftermarket. The DSC in conjunction with the LSD will give you state of the art automotive traction control. Throw in a set of good snow tires for the winter and the only thing that will out-run you is a beat-up $2,000 20-year-old Jeep Wrangler....Hmmm, come to think of it, get a beat-up $2,000 20-year-old Wrangler for the winter!

 

IMO, LSD is a nice to have while DSC is, well, not a need to have, but moreso than the LSD. In any case, you'll have ASC, so that all important toggle spot will be filled! DSC is insurance.
I think losing the CVT and Xenons are good tradeoffs.
If it were me, I'd get 'em both, but then again I don't do car loans.

 

DSC may be insurance, but if your insurance company reads your computer and determines that DSC was OFF during an accident, you will suffer. I have heard about instances of insurance companies not covering repairs when the DSC was off. I know it's important to have all 6 toggles, but it's cheaper to just buy a toggle switch-bank than to buy DSC.

Also, DSC cannot change the laws of physics. If you approach a corner way too fast, DSC will simply force you to go straighter, potentially destroying your beautiful new baby. Without DSC, or with it turned off, you can at least kick out the back end of the car and drift through the insane turns. God knows I would have destroyed my MC last week if DSC had been there.

If you're serious about getting either of these options, go with the LSD. They both cost the same, and at least one of them is not smoke & mirrors.

 

I would go for both LSD and DSC, even if it's only a "street" car. If you decide to power upgrade somewhere down-the-line you'll find the LSD to be a major boon.

 

I think the latest statistics say that DSC-like-systems reduce the odds of a fatal single car crash by like 40%. If that is true and not some number that somebody selling stability control systems has cooked up, that is not smoke and mirrors, that's a safety improvement in the same league as seatbelts, crumple zones, and air bags.

I appluad your hero-driving skills, but we all mess up sometimes.

 

IMO the main reason anyone would spend the $$$ for LSD is for some sort of competition driving. Autocross drivers must have this to be totally competitive.

DSC on the other hand is a great safety feature that can kick in and rescue you when you lose traction. Mine kicks in on a regular basis these days and once it pulled me round a bend where without it the 'excitement' level would have been extreme!

 

I am getting both DSC and LSD on my new 2005 MCS. LSD primarily because I will be running autocrosses (with DSC disabled). DSC is a MUST HAVE for normal road driving, in my opinion. DSC helps keep the car going in the direction it is steered, which is what you want in any emergency road situation. DSC gives yaw control at all speeds, while the LSD is primarily about getting torque to the road, which is at a maximum in 1st gear and decreases in each higher gear.

If you are in an area that gets regular snowfall, I would recommend both DSC and LSD, otherwise for street driving, I just recommend DSC.

 

If that were true, then insurance companies would give a discount for DSC, they do not. Also some insurance companies no longer discount for ABS because they are finding that people don't use ABS brakes correctly, and they cause more accidents.

If a few more peole disregard Airbag warnings and continue to put children up front, where they can die, Airbag doscounts will cease to exist also.

What a racket.

Steve

 

Definitely get DSC, and I'd strongly suggest you also get LSD... For a relatively low factory cost ($500) Not only will the car perform better, but it might be a great selling point (assuming you'd like to sell car eventually).

 

I've read some of the Insurance Institute's findings that were used to make that 40% claim, and most of them pertain to SUV's on highway entrance ramps going 60mph and having a sheer wind applied. Not a very universal test... (Sort of like "Vioxx causes heart-attacks")

And I certainly won't claim hero-status. I was testing the tightest setting on my new H-Sport sport-set, and driving on Ultra High Performance Summer tires in 40-degree weather. Not the brightest move.

And the later posts about air-bags and ABS are all true: any safety equipment is only as good as the circumstances of your accident. Putting your infant in the front seat can be deadly. A vehicle roll-over can be deadly because of your seat-belt.

Personally, if I have to make a very fast judgement call to move out of the way of something large and heavy, I don't want the nanny to tell me I can't do that. Nor do I want to have to think about reaching over and turning the nanny off. Generally, if you're in crisis-mode, you're beyond that kind of rational thought.

Ask Mugami about his experiences with DSC and cliff-diving...

 

BillyB,

Both DSC and LSD are useful for an MCS with manual transmission.
If you can afford it get both. Resale value and demand will be better with both.

Get DSC only if:
You are not the only driver (other family members can benefit)
You are big into safety
You tend to drive like a grandpa even though you drive a MCS
You roads are mostly in great shape
Your budget doesn't allow for the LSD
You NEVER will drive your MINI at the track or autocross
You must have that toggle switch (a functional one of course)

Get LSD only if:
Only you drive the MINI.
You want maximum traction in foul weather- snow or rain.
You like to drive corners fast.
You like to accelerate briskly
You have really short highway on ramps
You are used to all wheel drive and need your MINI to act similarly.
You just want to have fun.

If I were you I'd try to get both.

 

DSC is anything but smoke and mirrors. It is the exact opposite - all electronics and systems integration. You may believe that you can drive better than the computer in a skid situation, but if its true, you're rare. DSC isn't about 'getting out of the way of something large and heavy'. It's about a helping hand if aforementioned manuever gets you sideways when you want to be frontways.
As for stories saying 'I'd have been able to pull it off had DSC not been on', well, we'll never know, since you can't recreate any situation exactly, but I have a hard time believing that DSC would *cause* you to drive over a cliff.

I was lapping with a guy at Thunderhill when we hit a corner too hot - he tried to pull it out (admirably) but we ended up spinning. Afterwards I wondered if the DSC had been turned back ON in the middle of the crisis, if it would have pulled us out. As stated before though, I'll never know.

 

Get both!

 

DSC can help in unexpected situations and when a situation is misjudged. However, it is not a cure for stupidity.

LSD really has no downside.

Steve

 

Yes, as I understand it DSC uses selective breaking and a reduction of engine power to help you maintain control of the car in normal driving situations. You can, of course, turn if off when you're at the track, and you want to get a little sideways.

With a standard differential, once you break one of the wheels loose, all of the engine power goes to that wheel, and almost no torque goes to the wheel that still has traction. This is a common problem when you try to accelerate while turning. So if you have DSC, engine power will be reduced, so that the spinning wheel regains traction and both wheels are again getting power. Then car moves ahead evenly but slowly, until the DSC allows the engine to operate at full power again.

The LSD delivers as much power as possible to both driving wheels, even if one of them begins to slip. I think this means that you're less likely to engage the DSC. So you should have fewer frightening moments in traffic when you want to get around a corner quickly, and the DSC decides to slow you down because of wheel slip. On the track, you can turn the DSC off, and the LSD will put more power on the ground to pull you through those 180 degree autoX turns faster.

I'd get the DSC for overall safety, and the LSD, just because its such a deal at $500. If you don't get the LSD, and decide later that you want it, you're looking at around $1500.

 

Eric and Satay-ayam, I hope I didn't ruffle your feathers, there. :smile: I didn't get the DSC for my car, and personally I'm glad I didn't. But what makes these cars so special is that you guys are free to disagree with every single option that I got and still have the same car. I imagine it's that same rich variety of options that makes this board so enormous and popular.

When I said "smoke and mirrors", I was over-simplifying. I just read the other day that Toyota or Nissan or some other Japanese manufacturer was working on a new system to sense if the driver is drifting out of his/her lane. The system would set off an audible alarm--provided the turn-signal isn't engaged. Toward the end of the article, there was a brief statement by one of the executives of that company about the "advances" in safety features. He said (paraphrase): while this system is great, we certainly don't want to encourage laziness in drivers. Drivers shouldn't stop paying attention to the road and only react to alarms within the car.

That's the impression I got from the DSC. It's undoubtedly a fantastic system, and surely finds better application on some cars than others. It also would have more significant use for different driving-styles. Congress wants to mandate it in all cars, and the points about it helping regain traction in a long curve are spot-on. BUT: there is a serious potential, with this system, for a lazy driver to wrap a MINI around a telephone pole because he/she expects DSC to kick in and save the day.

I realize that most of us are smarter than that, but I have ridden in other MINIs where the driver was actively trying to get the DSC light to come on. Heck, I did it myself when I had a loaner MC40 for a day.

And, of course, as mentioned, there are those terrifying moments when you lunge out into on-coming traffic, and the DSC says "please try again".

I say, if it doesn't add weight, get every option under the Sun. You can always disable the stuff you don't want, and it's a heck of a lot cheaper than going back and having it added after-the-fact (if you even can). I know it's a capitulation from my previous posts, but I just remembered Ian Cull's "track-mode DSC" board.

Again, apologies if I offended anyone.

 

Here's a good tech. article. Allthough mostly about AWD, it explains differential types, and stability control:

http://mozart.chat.net/~jeske/unsoli...egacy/awd.html


Dave.

 

Hmmm...now that we've gone through all this debate, I've decided (for other reasons unrelated to the DSC/LSD debate) to get another CVT MC.

I enjoy my current CVT MC a lot, and I'm just too uncertain about jumping into a stick shift automobile after all these years of driving an automatic. So, that just leaves DSC, which I'll go ahead and get again. Of course, this time around, for a bit more fun, I'll get the OEM high performance muffler, and get some strong, light weight, R90 style looking wheels, right away, as well as go the cold air intake route, high performance plug wires, etc. I think I'll be happy with that, as I'm already pretty happy.

Of course, I've got a few months to go, so there is time for me to change my mind again, so I guess I'd better keep my ears open when it comes to this subject matter. Anytime I get in my CVT MC, other than some rattle issues, and my wrong upholstery, etc., I'm pretty darn happy with her in day to day driving. Using some of the CVT driving techniques I picked up at MINI2, I can get some pretty exciting off the line acceleration, and just flipping over to Sport Mode for cornering is a fun blast. I get to keep a suspension that is more that good enough for how I drive, with this HP, and thus I get to keep a decent ride quality, while still keeping up good traction in hard cornering.

I'm not debunking an MCS stick by any means, and it still might be in my future. (I really need to test drive one, eh?) Because of the decreased gas mileage, which I've yet to see numbers on, as well as the somewhat decreased performance, I don't think an MCS automatic is ever likely to be in my future...unless they came out with a strong CVT model.

One point though, regarding this debate, it seems to me that LSD is at it's best, usually, in the lower gear range, where it's likely safety benefit is somewhat more limited. I've never had DSC send me in some direction I had not intended to go, even under a high speed emergency manuever. The power reduction loss is not all that bad when DSC activates, unless you are racing, and yet you can still push the vehicle if necessary. Also, with DSC (not that I'm trying to sell anyone on it), you get some all wheel traction assistance, which is something you can't get with LSD. And, you can always turn off DSC if you wish to, and there are certainly times when you should, like when you are stuck in snow or mud, and want to rock the vehicle free.

Anyway, those are my two cents worth of opinion on the issue. If I had the money, and was getting an MCS stick (which I still might), then I'd likely go for both of these options. But on a tight car budget, one has to try to be practical somewhere when it comes to options. Geez, I know of people that are up in the $30K zone with their MINI's, and that's without it being an MCS, or even a Cabrio! (My budget is about $25K maximum, this time around, for best overall buyer/ driver comfort and joy.)

 

ahamos - no offense taken or meant My Mini doesn't have DSC, either

I was pretty skeptical about stability control systems, too, but I think they might be a good thing.