He's earned most of it thru working jobs thru high school, just helping him w/ a portion of it as a grad. gift......and given the safety factors may kick in another extra $2k to sway him towards the MC :smile:

 

Just please don't put another xA on the road...very ugly.

If your son is into MINIs and will truly appreciate having one, get a Cooper. If he just doesn't care, wants to be different from Dad, or really don't get MINIs at all...get the tC. It'll be reliable and that's good.

 

No, MINI's are NOT necessarily "Rock solid reliable".

There have been a whole passel of problems experienced by owners and all of them can be found via search. Some MINI's turned out to be "rock solid reliable", some are lemons and quite a few fall somewhere in between.

Now, they have improved their reliability 100 fold for the present model run and I would have no qualms about sticking my kid (if I had one) in a new Cooper of any kind.

BUT

If I were an 18 year old with limited funds and a questionable financial future who was likely to exhaust the warranty quickly, I would be particularly nervous about having to pay for MINI bits when they fail. My point is that, maintenance-wise, these cars -- reliable or not -- are certainly not cheap. [I'm the first person in my family to spend $900 replacing tires (with factory rubber)].

I'm not trying to advise you against MINI -- I'd take one over a Scion anyday -- I'm just saying that I'm none of the aforementioned things and I am beyond fearful about any maintenance on this car. I already need new tires... again.

 

Ah. Nice! Good for him! You must be very proud of him . I personally don't understand the attraction to a Scion (looks wise). Especially for a teenage boy. Put a little hotty in a room with an MC and ANY Scion and watch which one she goes for. The "cute" factor plays a very important roll in the category of female attraction. That should be enough for him to make up his mind. .

 

Yeah... let's really not take this thread in that direction.

 

Im not going to argue with you over if Toyota makes better cars than MINI because Toyota has been around long enough, and their sales high enough to make any argument moot. But I will counter some of your points

As to a bulletproof engine. Yet to be seen. You got maybe 112K units sold in the US total until June, 2005. What kind of sample size is that? Most MINIs have yet to reach 60K so to say they are bulletproof to prematurely makes no sense.

To your safety features ... I am so sick of hearing people sprout all the wonderful acronyms .... EBD, ASC, Antilock brakes. Please ... you dont think the other manufacturers have the exact same thing and might just use different acryonyms???

As to your reliability, why does JD power rate the 2003 as the THIRD WORSE of all manufacturers? Oh, I can hear it now .... JD doesnt know what they are talking about .... Consumer Reports sukkks., etc etc etc.

And finally, air bags, have you looked at MINIs crash ratings. Take a look at Scion http://www.automotive.com/2005/12/sc...ety/index.html

now look at the latest mini ratings http://www.automotive.com/2004/12/mi...ety/index.html

not even close.

If, God forbid, anyone is in an accident, I sure rather have an impact on my chest of 40gs vice 55 gs/

 

The xA and xB are essentially rebadged JDM Toyota vehicles. In Japan they are known as the iSt and bB. The tC is based on the European Avensis sedan. All three are built in Toyota factories in Japan. :smile:

 

In fact on one of this mornings business TV shows they were talking about niche auto sales. How does a mass producing auto maker create a niche market. The consult said there was "the fringes, the edge, mainstream .... something about mass producing". You want to be on the edge and then move what your learn into mass production.

SCION was brought up as the perfect example of the concept since they now have 7% of all Toyota sales. They are on the bleeding edge without being way out there ... find out what they young kids want in a car ... then move what you learn mainstream.

The only real way to do it is create a totally independent division without old line tines to the old guys in the old factories. For example, old line manufacturing was to stamp out metal sheets. been doing it for 100 years and no way are we chaning. New line manufacturing, they use high pressure liquid to change the shape of the metal.

 

the scion will be cheaper to own in the long run. the MC will be more fun, but more costly for maintenance.

either one is a good choice, financial considerations aside, i would reccomend the MC.

 

I think both cars will be fun to have. At the end, I think it's going to
come down to what your son wants. Either car is going to be just
as fun (in its own ways) and could bring issues along the way. My
MCS, although not the smoothest car i've driven, has been a champ.


Also, 'Japanese car' is too generic of a term to use as it includes
anything from a Suzuki Samurai to a Lexus LS430. If one had
problems with an old Mitsu Mirage everyday, hey, that's your
problem for having a crap version Japanese car. hehe

 

for a bit of fun, i asked a friend who has owned both.

Rather then write his thoughts as my own:

 

i can see why buying a mini new is good, because you can get it the way you want it for the same price as you would buy it used! but with all other cars i say buy used, they just drop in value! i would look into a used acura RSX type S, you can get one with under 20,000 miles on it for around $17,000... scion probably not a bad car, especially if you supercharge it and upgrade the suspension system then i bet it will be a nice little sports car! that scion coupe does look better then an rsx though IMO... frankly even though i really like mini's i would get something else over a regular MC, but nothing over the MCS...

 

I might add that if you look at the crash ratings between the two cars, there is an OBVIOUS reason why MINI had to add so many more air bags. Toyota builds quality from day one into everything.

There is also some phsyics going on here. One claim is the MINI is so light. Well, when it crashes, its also going to leave a mark. I'd much rather be behind a 10 ten truck in a crash, than an 2700 car.

As to that "bullet proof engine" and the lack of ability to get some real HP., After talking to racing shops (where they do race in SCCA, not for the street), I was told it was the ONLY engine BMW could get into production quickly. They wanted to start putting out cars FAST. ITs easy to add a SC to most anything but not for serious power.

Why do you thing the second gen is going Turbo? How many SC cars exist vice Turbo???

"There is no substitute for cubic inches"

Anon

 

get a Tc

If you can get a MCS, get a Tc.
to me. getting a good car it is critical, MC is not a well equip car like Tc. A mcs would do the trick but the money is another factor.

i am personally like the Tc. it is a great car with a good look. it has the sedan look and it also gets the modern look of a younger age owner's car.

from the look, i think Tc is the best looking in all cars in that price range.
Quality, i never worry about this with Toyota, nothing to say about it.
options, it has a cool interior, not too cheap looking with plastic, also it has good seat i think there is a sports seat option.

from handling, MC is a way better option, but Tc is not a bad one at all. it comes with the front brace and rear control arms(adjustable). which somehow give the options to tune the car if modification involved in the future .

Tc or MCS, not MC!

 

i think turbo cars are a bit silly, you can get 50%+- with a Supercharger, thats plenty for production cars, as long as they start off with a good engine. the MCS should have been double overhead cam! i personally wish the next engine should have been a 2.0 lt DOHC supercharged, figure you can get 190 normally aspired hp out of it with a compression ration that is fitting for a SC so with a SC you could bring it up past 250+ hp...

 

i would suggest a tc as well ... the car is marketed to his demographic, and from your posts it all leads me to believe this is what he wants. good car for the price ...

 

Uhmm so? If the only thing that matters is how many races its won, then your in the wrong car. If that is what concerns you then you'd better go get a Porsche (where racing improves the breed) or a Ferrari or a Shelby Cobra but MINI ... please ... it won a couple of ... to AMERICANs .... obscure rallies 40 years ago.

Who wins those same road rallies now .... Lets see, could it be EVOs, and WRX ... oh wait, those are JAPANESE.

And a bigger one when that truck hits you. There are no ways around the laws of physics. Bigger is always better. Since you do appear safety minded, I'm surprised you would even bring up weight.

I stumbled upon this by accident but you really need to read this thread. It will make you think twice about all those wonderful safety feature in your MINI

http://forums1.roadfly.com/mini/foru...6852801-1.html

Oh, and if think I'm bashing MINI, I am not, No way, otherwise I wouldnt own one. To the contrary I know the limitations of the vehicle. Then again, the US Governments NHSTA could be wrong (compared to those evil products from the Far East).

I'm really getting tired of all the "love-ins" (oh how wonderful our EBD, DSC, etc, is ...). Try to view the car objectively. All the other car manufacturers aren't dopes ... and yes, there are faults. You can still love a faulty car ... thats human.

Isn't America great. You all can go buy whatever you please but I would bet Scions has a bigger market share than MINI ....

 

oh get over youself chows4us ... so you like Japanese cars ... ok

also about your comment of "bigger is always better" ... hot off the press from todays New York Daily News ...

http://www.nydailynews.com/08-14-200...p-287889c.html


I have seen numerous other accidents similar to this documented here on NAM and MINI2 where a much larger vehicle went out of control causing it to either flip or go out of control when in an accident with and MC.

 

as stated before, it really comes down to what your son wants. there's the simple fact that your son will be the one driving and the one caring for the vehicle. The more he enjoys it, the less likely he'll blame you for any defects, problems in the future, and the better he'll care for it.

in my case, my parents wanted me to get a civic, but I would probably never wash it and wouldn't care for it like I do my MINI.

 

JD Powers survey rates a squeaky seat just the same as a defective motor, or defective transmission. I think the point that was trying to be made was that the MINI has had very few major mechanical failures.

I would be the first to tell you that the MINIs have some annoying minor defects, squeaks, rattles, easily scratched trim. But, as far as problems that have kept me off the road, that is ZERO. So in my book that is 100% reliable.


But did you look at the femur load numbers? This is a direct indication of the ability of the drivers compartment to maintain it's integrity. With the numbers in the scion you are looking at serious deformation and a garranteed broken leg.

I'll take my MCS any day, TYVM

 

Chows4us:

I have to congratulate you on your job as "devil's advocate" but...

I am not goin to get dragged down in your little bashing game

May be you are a troll or a Toyota employee.. Either way I don't care. You lose credibility with stupid comments like "I rather be in a 10 ton truck" but hey, you certainly provide good laughing material around here

Toyotas have never been and never will be objects that I find ever remotely desirable to own. Cheap cars that everyone and their mothers have. Thank goodness for MINI.

Go and drive your PERFECT and DIVINE Scion. Leave the MINI for the rest of us, "idiots"

 

In fairness to MINIs, my car has never left me stranded, nor do I expect it to. However, had I not been under warranty (and had a low glass deductable) I would have EASILY put about $5000 into my car over the course of 49.2K miles. And that's just fixing crap that's broken: much of it annoying, some of it safety-compromising and all of it mandatory (not niggling cosmetics and such).

As far as not having a large enough sampling to determine the reliability of our engines... they aren't MINI specific, so there are more engines than MINIs out there, functioning well and appearing on a few (admittedly arbitrary) "Top 10" lists, if I remember my post history correctly. I haven't actually ever heard one negative thing about our engines, nor dor I recall hearing of any pattern-indicating failures OR any failures at all.

Finally, Turbo Schmurbo. I much prefer not having to hand write my turbo an invitation to join my throttle while I sit back and wait for it to RSVP.

Oh no wait -- not finally -- FINALLY... what in the sam hell are any of us to do with 600hp and why do we care ONE IOTA whether or not our engines are capable of such astronomical and useless power?

 

Scion tc... If you're even on the fence about it I don't know if you deserve a MINI.

Yea, sure. Put me in the twisties with you and I'll show you the MC, holmes.

Oh, and Chows4us- Subarus are KOREAN. Just so that you know.

 

that is actually true ... in the local BMW Sponsored autocross events the MC always has better times than the MCS ... always.

 

Oh, and Chows4us- Subarus are KOREAN. Just so that you know.[/QUOTE]



Uh getting off-topic here, but Subaru's are NOT Korean, they are Japanese. SUBARU means 'Pleides', as in the constellation... check their logo...



Cheers,

-Jay Redd
'reddbear'