Your logic seems to be based on theory that the pressure plate is a consumable item (like brake pads). The throwout bearing is closer to meeting the consumable definition. But its consumption rate is not determined by how many times you engage/disengage the clutch, but rather by how long the clutch is kept disengaged - hence my earlier suggestion to put the transmission in neutral (and not keep the clutch pedal down) at very long stops.

 

I always put the transmission in neutral and let the clutch pedal out when at a standstill. What kills me is people who will use the clutch to hold the car still on an uphill as they wait for the light to change. Those are the folks who need a new clutch after 15k miles.

 

READ HERE. From the quoted reference

Most manual transmissions today, ... have a self-adjusting clutch system. To accomplish this amazing feat, the clutch-release bearing is running all the time no matter what. Second, the clutch-release bearing today is much larger than necessary. These clutch-release bearings are designed to go one million cycles (pushing the pedal down one million times). So people can feel free to leave their foot on the clutch pedal today at stoplights with no negative repercussions.

Once again ... ancedotal information means squat. For someone to say "I got customers with broken clutches" means NOTHING. For all you know, they do not have self-adjusting clutches. For another to say "I got 1,500,000 miles on my clutch" means NOTHING. There are always extreme on both ends of the curve

If you want to find the truth, your going to have to research with a large enough population of people wearing out their throw out bearing WITH adjusted clutches.

Until then ... you can speculate until the cows come home

 

The jerkiness comes from me not quite finding how quickly to depress the gas while releasing the clutch pedal. If I'm not jerking around, then I have problems not getting enough gas and my start is extremely slow. Isn't this sad?

Honestly, it's not just a matter of me needing more practice (although practice is always fun). I have no such problems in my husband's car. Also have no problems in the higher gears. Just from stop -> 1st, and sometimes 1st -> 2nd, I'll still chirp.

Husband thinks it's pedal position.

Thanks.

 

So what does a "self adjusting clutch" adjust for? Isn't it for wear of the friction plate? Look at how a clutch assembly is made; There is a machined surface on the engine flywheel. In the center of the flywheel and on the end of the crankshaft there is a cylindrical hole into which the smooth end of the transmission input shaft fits. The rest of the input shaft is splined, and on this splined portion is mounted the friction plate. The friction plate can slide on the splined shaft to come in contact with the machined surface of the flywheel. If the friction plate turns, it turns the splined shaft which turns the gears in the transmission. If you had a way of forcing the friction plate against the rotating flywheel, the transmission gears would turn and the car would move. Thats where the pressure plate assembly comes in. It is a heavy disc, approximately the same diameter as the friction plate and is attached via spring loaded levers to a basket, or housing. At the center of the plate there is a large opening where the inner ends of the spring levers form a circle. When assembled, the friction plate "floats" on the splined shaft between the flywheel and the pressure plate. The housing of the pressure plate is bolted to the flywheel. The springs and levers force the pressure plate against the friction plate, and, when the engine is running, the flywheel turns the pressure plate and the friction plate, which turns the transmission input shaft. The final component of the clutch assembly is the throwout bearing. The bearing is mounted on a fork which allows it to move along the axis of the splined shaft. It is outside the pressure plate assembly, but comes in contact with the ends of the levers at the center of the pressure plate. When the bearing is pressed toward the flywheel, it pushes on the levers, which lift the pressure plate away from the friction plate. That releases the friction plate from the flywheel and disengages the clutch. To keep the pressure plate lifted, and the clutch disengaged, constant force must be applied to the bearing. The outer part of the bearing is attached to the fork and does not rotate, the inner part is in contact and rotates with the levers of the pressure plate. When the clutch is disengaged, the bearing is subject to a sideways force sufficient to overcome the pressure plate springs. Between the outer, non rotating part of the bearing and the inner part are little steel ***** that run in a grove and connect the two parts together but allow rotation. The sideways force on the bearing causes wear of the groove or race of the bearing and the ***** themselves. You can seal the bearing with lubricant inside and make it last longer, but eventually it will wear out. The less time you apply sideways force, the less wear on the bearing. The more gear changes and stops and starts the more wear on the bearing. Holding the clutch disengaged longer adds to the wear. If two cars go through the same number of clutch cycles(disengage, engage), but one holds the clutch disengaged for longer periods before engaging, it will wear out faster that the other.
As the friction plate wears with use it gets thinner, and this allows the pressure plate to move closer to the flywheel. This means that the fork that holds the throwout bearing must move farther to disengage the pressure plate. On older cars there was a mechanical adjustment to accomplish this, on newer cars it is self adjusting, but it has nothing to do with bearing wear.

 

That's interesting. Still though, I'll continue to put the car into neutral while at a stop light. I just don't like having my foot on the clutch pedal for long periods.

 

I just throw it in neutral because I am lazy.

I get tired of pressing on the clutch when sitting still.

 

I always leave it neutral when stopped.

 

What's the cost of a new installed clutch at the dealer?

 

Well maybe not, but it's one of those times when hey the tranny's out so I might as well put a clutch plate & pressure plate in. Same labor, just a couple more parts. If you were replacing the clutch you'd put all new parts in including the throw out bearing. Either one is a very costly fix & not one I want to have to deal with.

I also put it in neutral with my fooot off the clutch at lights. You folks that don't probably aren't hurting a thing. Different styles of driving that's all.

 

Would that be a 2 year community college degree.........

Your doomsday advice is remarkable for its lack of evidence.

I will continue to do as I have. I have probably more than 500,000 miles driven with manual tranny and no throw out bearings were killed.

Best advice for those still reading.... ....put the car in neutral if sitting more than a couple of minutes, don't worry about it if not.

 

ALL THE WAY IN or ALL THE WAY OUT
(it's OK to put it in neutral if you're superstitious)

 

and also apparently wears on knee caps.

 

As I posted before......more than 150,000 miles on the original clutch in one car and over 100,000 miles each on my County vehicles.

So who has more practical experience?

 

So what you are telling me is that you have no actual quantifiable data other than your work at the parts counter at the place you worked at?

If you have any actual data on MINI's and the throw out bearing being affected by keeping the clutch depressed at a light over a number of years/miles I'm more than willing to listen and change my opinion but until then this is, as far as I can see, only your opinion based on anecdotal evidence that may or not be related to MINI's.

 

Wow, it's like being back in middle school all over again...

 

You do it because it is the correct thing to do. Less wear, and safer in case your foot slips off the clutch. 30 years ago you clutch holders would be laughed at. Ask any performance driving school.

Today anything goes because cars are built better. You paid your money, and you should drive it anyway you like, resting your arm on the gearshift, resting your foot on the clutch, holding it down at lights. Then post here about funny noises.

regards,
Red

 

Let's get this thread back on track without the name calling. As a reminder: respect for other members is part of the site guidelines.

 

I am with grommit.

PS: Now we are beginning to see the REAL reasons as to why so many clutches seems to be failing prematurely..... We have clutch riders in the house!!!!

 

How do you come that conclusion if modern clutches are engineered to last at least 1 million cycles and all we are doing is performing one of those cycles and the actual bearing is functioning all the time.

My other question is what is the actual rate of failure of MINI clutches. We all know that the squeaky wheel gets the grease and so is the real failure rate actually as high as the anecdotal evidence suggests.

 

This is how I do it. I don't really think about it in terms of what will make my clutch last the longest (I really have more important things to worry about, honestly), but what is comfortable for me, the driver.

I've been driving manuals for 16 years, and haven't had any premature clutch problems. I'm not a high-milage driver (even less now that I'm bike commuting), but there you go.

 

You have hit it right on the head.

Most people just relate to their own experiences throwing out anecdotal stories that mean squat.

Rarely does anyone here really gather the facts across a truly statistical meaningful set of incidences. Too much work. Often people are criticized for asking for dyno sheets that might have objective data but they are willing to accept subjective data becuase its "proof by assertion".... that is, its so because I say its so. So, its much easier to say "my way is the right way because it happened to me".

I would suggest taking any proof by assertions with a grain of salt as a lot of these old myths die a hard death until they show up at snopes (which is kind of funny because some website debunks something an urban legend ... everyone believes that website Who is to say THEY are right)

 

I guess I just keep it in neutral as my knee cap bearing is going out...

 

True dat

 

Or internal tendons in the knee. Sometimes, dispite the best practice, the internal tendons in the knee start to say that they have had it and decide to take a vacation. They can be recalled from vacation, but when that happens, the internal tendons get particularly cranky and exact their price for being recalled - considerable pain in the left knee. I know about the price of recalling the tendons in the left knee from vacation.... When I checked into whether I could drive the manual transmission in the C5 Z06, the dealer was good enough to let me drive their demo unit for an afternoon. The next day, I was on crutches.... Since that experience, the tendons in my left knee and I have an agreement - I won't recall them from vacation and they won't put me on crutches.... Thank goodness for SMG-II. Wish it were available in the MINI.