R50/53 Keeping the clutch in while stopped...
#26
Originally Posted by Morris9982
I think I'll keep the clutch peddle down at lights.
Moving the gear shift to neutral at every stop puts more wear on the pressure plate as you have to let the clutch in and out four times instead of twice. So, you save the throw out bearing but wear out the pressure plate sooner.
My understanding is that you may not have to remove the clutch to replace the throw out bearing, but you would still have to separate the transmission from the motor. I would think that would be almost as expensive as taking the clutch out.
If the clutch is failing for reasons other than a worn pressure plate, that makes me think the driver was either abusing the clutch or the clutch itself was poorly designed or had a material defect.
Moving the gear shift to neutral at every stop puts more wear on the pressure plate as you have to let the clutch in and out four times instead of twice. So, you save the throw out bearing but wear out the pressure plate sooner.
My understanding is that you may not have to remove the clutch to replace the throw out bearing, but you would still have to separate the transmission from the motor. I would think that would be almost as expensive as taking the clutch out.
If the clutch is failing for reasons other than a worn pressure plate, that makes me think the driver was either abusing the clutch or the clutch itself was poorly designed or had a material defect.
#27
#28
Originally Posted by caminifan
And how do you come to the conclusion that it won't make any difference at all to the bearing? The throwout bearing is only used when the clutch is disengaged. Increase the time the clutch is disengaged and you increase the use/wear of the throwout bearing.
Most manual transmissions today, ... have a self-adjusting clutch system. To accomplish this amazing feat, the clutch-release bearing is running all the time no matter what. Second, the clutch-release bearing today is much larger than necessary. These clutch-release bearings are designed to go one million cycles (pushing the pedal down one million times). So people can feel free to leave their foot on the clutch pedal today at stoplights with no negative repercussions.
Once again ... ancedotal information means squat. For someone to say "I got customers with broken clutches" means NOTHING. For all you know, they do not have self-adjusting clutches. For another to say "I got 1,500,000 miles on my clutch" means NOTHING. There are always extreme on both ends of the curve
If you want to find the truth, your going to have to research with a large enough population of people wearing out their throw out bearing WITH adjusted clutches.
Until then ... you can speculate until the cows come home
#29
Originally Posted by litabelle
If I do depress it all the way down to the floor, I end up jerking around because, well, somehow I just can't get my right foot to "equalize". You all know what I mean, right? Thanks everyone.
Honestly, it's not just a matter of me needing more practice (although practice is always fun). I have no such problems in my husband's car. Also have no problems in the higher gears. Just from stop -> 1st, and sometimes 1st -> 2nd, I'll still chirp.
Husband thinks it's pedal position.
Thanks.
#30
So what does a "self adjusting clutch" adjust for? Isn't it for wear of the friction plate? Look at how a clutch assembly is made; There is a machined surface on the engine flywheel. In the center of the flywheel and on the end of the crankshaft there is a cylindrical hole into which the smooth end of the transmission input shaft fits. The rest of the input shaft is splined, and on this splined portion is mounted the friction plate. The friction plate can slide on the splined shaft to come in contact with the machined surface of the flywheel. If the friction plate turns, it turns the splined shaft which turns the gears in the transmission. If you had a way of forcing the friction plate against the rotating flywheel, the transmission gears would turn and the car would move. Thats where the pressure plate assembly comes in. It is a heavy disc, approximately the same diameter as the friction plate and is attached via spring loaded levers to a basket, or housing. At the center of the plate there is a large opening where the inner ends of the spring levers form a circle. When assembled, the friction plate "floats" on the splined shaft between the flywheel and the pressure plate. The housing of the pressure plate is bolted to the flywheel. The springs and levers force the pressure plate against the friction plate, and, when the engine is running, the flywheel turns the pressure plate and the friction plate, which turns the transmission input shaft. The final component of the clutch assembly is the throwout bearing. The bearing is mounted on a fork which allows it to move along the axis of the splined shaft. It is outside the pressure plate assembly, but comes in contact with the ends of the levers at the center of the pressure plate. When the bearing is pressed toward the flywheel, it pushes on the levers, which lift the pressure plate away from the friction plate. That releases the friction plate from the flywheel and disengages the clutch. To keep the pressure plate lifted, and the clutch disengaged, constant force must be applied to the bearing. The outer part of the bearing is attached to the fork and does not rotate, the inner part is in contact and rotates with the levers of the pressure plate. When the clutch is disengaged, the bearing is subject to a sideways force sufficient to overcome the pressure plate springs. Between the outer, non rotating part of the bearing and the inner part are little steel ***** that run in a grove and connect the two parts together but allow rotation. The sideways force on the bearing causes wear of the groove or race of the bearing and the ***** themselves. You can seal the bearing with lubricant inside and make it last longer, but eventually it will wear out. The less time you apply sideways force, the less wear on the bearing. The more gear changes and stops and starts the more wear on the bearing. Holding the clutch disengaged longer adds to the wear. If two cars go through the same number of clutch cycles(disengage, engage), but one holds the clutch disengaged for longer periods before engaging, it will wear out faster that the other.
As the friction plate wears with use it gets thinner, and this allows the pressure plate to move closer to the flywheel. This means that the fork that holds the throwout bearing must move farther to disengage the pressure plate. On older cars there was a mechanical adjustment to accomplish this, on newer cars it is self adjusting, but it has nothing to do with bearing wear.
As the friction plate wears with use it gets thinner, and this allows the pressure plate to move closer to the flywheel. This means that the fork that holds the throwout bearing must move farther to disengage the pressure plate. On older cars there was a mechanical adjustment to accomplish this, on newer cars it is self adjusting, but it has nothing to do with bearing wear.
#31
Originally Posted by chows4us
READ HERE. From the quoted reference
Most manual transmissions today, ... have a self-adjusting clutch system. To accomplish this amazing feat, the clutch-release bearing is running all the time no matter what. Second, the clutch-release bearing today is much larger than necessary. These clutch-release bearings are designed to go one million cycles (pushing the pedal down one million times). So people can feel free to leave their foot on the clutch pedal today at stoplights with no negative repercussions.
Once again ... ancedotal information means squat. For someone to say "I got customers with broken clutches" means NOTHING. For all you know, they do not have self-adjusting clutches. For another to say "I got 1,500,000 miles on my clutch" means NOTHING. There are always extreme on both ends of the curve
If you want to find the truth, your going to have to research with a large enough population of people wearing out their throw out bearing WITH adjusted clutches.
Until then ... you can speculate until the cows come home
Most manual transmissions today, ... have a self-adjusting clutch system. To accomplish this amazing feat, the clutch-release bearing is running all the time no matter what. Second, the clutch-release bearing today is much larger than necessary. These clutch-release bearings are designed to go one million cycles (pushing the pedal down one million times). So people can feel free to leave their foot on the clutch pedal today at stoplights with no negative repercussions.
Once again ... ancedotal information means squat. For someone to say "I got customers with broken clutches" means NOTHING. For all you know, they do not have self-adjusting clutches. For another to say "I got 1,500,000 miles on my clutch" means NOTHING. There are always extreme on both ends of the curve
If you want to find the truth, your going to have to research with a large enough population of people wearing out their throw out bearing WITH adjusted clutches.
Until then ... you can speculate until the cows come home
#35
Originally Posted by Joeypilot
Actually, the clutch assy. does not need to be removed to replace the throw out bearing. I always put my car in neutral and take my foot completely off the clutch pedal. Definitely less wear on the throw out bearing.
I also put it in neutral with my fooot off the clutch at lights. You folks that don't probably aren't hurting a thing. Different styles of driving that's all.
#36
Originally Posted by Gromit801
My degree in Automotive Technology, and years behind a parts counter looking at the hard data customers brought in are all the data I need. You'll be replacing your clutch long before I will.
Your doomsday advice is remarkable for its lack of evidence.
I will continue to do as I have. I have probably more than 500,000 miles driven with manual tranny and no throw out bearings were killed.
Best advice for those still reading.... ....put the car in neutral if sitting more than a couple of minutes, don't worry about it if not.
#38
#39
Originally Posted by Gromit801
You say you've never had a throwout bearing replaced, but say nothing about the rest of the clutch. If you've never had a clutch go out on you in 500,000 miles, I can only assume you're a troll, or a flat out liar.
Or maybe you've never kept a car long enough for a clutch to go out? Sell or trade it at about 60-80,000 miles?
As I posted before......more than 150,000 miles on the original clutch in one car and over 100,000 miles each on my County vehicles.
So who has more practical experience?
Last edited by dave; 08-04-2006 at 09:15 PM. Reason: remove portion of quote
#40
Originally Posted by Gromit801
My degree in Automotive Technology, and years behind a parts counter looking at the hard data customers brought in are all the data I need. You'll be replacing your clutch long before I will.
If you have any actual data on MINI's and the throw out bearing being affected by keeping the clutch depressed at a light over a number of years/miles I'm more than willing to listen and change my opinion but until then this is, as far as I can see, only your opinion based on anecdotal evidence that may or not be related to MINI's.
#42
Originally Posted by JCW Driver
I just throw it in neutral because I am lazy.
I get tired of pressing on the clutch when sitting still.
I get tired of pressing on the clutch when sitting still.
Today anything goes because cars are built better. You paid your money, and you should drive it anyway you like, resting your arm on the gearshift, resting your foot on the clutch, holding it down at lights. Then post here about funny noises.
regards,
Red
#45
Originally Posted by C4
I am with grommit.
PS: Now we are beginning to see the REAL reasons as to why so many clutches seems to be failing prematurely..... We have clutch riders in the house!!!!
PS: Now we are beginning to see the REAL reasons as to why so many clutches seems to be failing prematurely..... We have clutch riders in the house!!!!
My other question is what is the actual rate of failure of MINI clutches. We all know that the squeaky wheel gets the grease and so is the real failure rate actually as high as the anecdotal evidence suggests.
#46
Originally Posted by DrueDown
I have only been driving manual for a week, but all of the "instructions" I read online told me to keep it in nuetral at long lights, but that it is okay to keep in gear w/ clutch for short lights/stops.
This is how I do it. I don't really think about it in terms of what will make my clutch last the longest (I really have more important things to worry about, honestly), but what is comfortable for me, the driver.
I've been driving manuals for 16 years, and haven't had any premature clutch problems. I'm not a high-milage driver (even less now that I'm bike commuting), but there you go.
#47
Originally Posted by Rastven
We all know that the squeaky wheel gets the grease and so is the real failure rate actually as high as the anecdotal evidence suggests.
Most people just relate to their own experiences throwing out anecdotal stories that mean squat.
Rarely does anyone here really gather the facts across a truly statistical meaningful set of incidences. Too much work. Often people are criticized for asking for dyno sheets that might have objective data but they are willing to accept subjective data becuase its "proof by assertion".... that is, its so because I say its so. So, its much easier to say "my way is the right way because it happened to me".
I would suggest taking any proof by assertions with a grain of salt as a lot of these old myths die a hard death until they show up at snopes (which is kind of funny because some website debunks something an urban legend ... everyone believes that website Who is to say THEY are right)
#49
#50
Originally Posted by kenchan
and also apparently wears on knee caps.