are you sure its just one? lets not manipulate words to deameanor a fellow enthusiast to make yourself respectful when we know its adverse affect.
financial success...i think this would matter on personal experience as to rumors that prohibit financial success.

 

keep fooling yourself and others than you will save a lot of money and time.
you dont need actual mods, just think it and believe it than you shall feel it....plus $ching $ching in your wallet for your love ones, heck fool them too.

 

Why is this thread reminding me of seeing "Borat" on Letterman Monday night?

 

that says you can only tell if a violinist missed a note if you can play yourself. I don't need to buy one, I can read the objective tests on subject matter. I have a PhD in physics. So, dispite the huge piles of data that say subjective tests (I have one and it felt different) are suspect, and the total absence of objective double blind data, that you are still convienced that you have derived benefit? Fine by me, but that don't pass the peer review test.

1) All thoughts are not well respected.

2) I'll show respect and all when communicating, but please forgive me if a note of sarcasm leaks in when someone insists 2+2=5.

3) These things never die. It doesn't matter how many times they get slapped for false and misleading advertising (look at the oil additives and the like for that stuff), or how many time they fail double blind tests. There's always SOMEONE who will say it worked for me, and there's always SOMEONE ELSE that thinks that's a good enough reason to buy another one.

And some comments on the vortex princible behind it. Sounds good, right? Um, no.... The vortex in sinks isn't to get them to drain faster, it has to do with conservation of angular momentum....

Here's a test you can do at any childrens museum. They have these funnel tables where the kids can roll ***** into them, down the funnel. Does a ball come out faster if you roll it straight down the hole, or if you run it around the edge like a roulette wheel. I think you'll be surprised to find that you can make a ball stay in the funnel quite a long time if you send it right allong the edge...... So much for improved mass transport....

Really, the only possible upside to this technology came to me on the crapper today. Hybridize this with a Dyson vacuum cleaner to get rid of the filter element in the intake.... But don't use one for increased gas milage.

Matt

and PS, no, I've never intentionally poked myself in the eye with a stick, but I'm pretty sure that it won't improve vision, even without doing it myself!

 

Hey, debate the product, not each other!!!!

Mark

 

What makes the air spin in these things? Well, the air gets deflected, and a bunch of rotational motion is given to the gas. Even if this is a perfect exchange, what you have done is taken the kinetic energy of the gas moving through the pipe along the pipe axis, and moved it over into rotational energy, with the gas spinning around the axis of the pipe. The only way to do this is to have a reduction in linear velocity. So the gas has to go SLOWER down the intake pipe because you've taken some energy of motion into directions that don't propogate the gas. But the motor is hungry, so it sucks more to get the air it needs. Seems like it would lower intake pressures, not raise them!

Sorry if this all comes off as harsh, but a demo of a tornado in a bottle isn't an arguement for anything other than conservation of angular momentum. Every think I know about how the universe works says this is the automotive equivalent of a pet rock.

Matt

 

i respect your education degree in phD physics but i hope this accolade doesn't make you feel any higher or greater than without and hope you will listen to others who have not received such degrees. pride is a killer and i see it in action with the doctors, lawyers and so call intellects. if my words come out wrong, no harm done for its not my intention.

respected is earn, basically what you relaying, than do you honestly respects kids or teenagers or even adults who differs in some area of thoughts?

like kenchan simply put, 'it made me feel better with than without' and thats all it matters.

so, do not discourage ukhan24 who has received a tornado from the dad by making ukhan24 feel like an enemy for trying it. i say, do it and post your feedback. i was the only few encouraging of hopeful thoughts that it would do some good for the drive and for the mini from my sense of feel from having one as oppose to not.

and dont poke the eyes to clear vision but poke the head for better thoughts.

 

ASK, if you truly don't want to believe the science there is a simple waay to prove yourself. Hook up an OBDII data logger and make some real world runs showing power, temps and the like; then repeat the eaxact same runs without the tornado. OR Go to a dyno, make a few runs with, remove and make a few runds without. Do you even have OBC MPG readings or here's 3 tanks without it and 3 tanks with and the miles per gallon at each fillup? (thats something I can easily get 1-4 mpg change in just on how fast I come off the corner, but at least you'd have something concrete to base this on)

Provide us with solid scientific data.

It's also amazing how much a sugar pill can make people "feel" better. If you truly "feel" better about driving you ccar withthe product on there and you're sure its not doing any damage then great! But sugar pills don't create more power add mpg or help everybody.

 

He does, we've had many great disscusions about various things, many engine related. And I certainly am no Phd, and I am a still barely a teen (3 more months)

Keep it to the product disscusion

 

You siad it improved you gas milage.

So really, where is the double blind data? That is what I'm open to. And there just isn't any.

This has nothing to do with pride. It's not my pride that makes me type and say what I do. It has to do with basic, sound princibles of physical systems. And I'm not sure if I'd give myself kudos for suggesting that someone else do something pointless. I'd be more proud of myself for saying "I thought it made a difference, but after I did some research on the item, I couldn't find ANY good data other than anticdotal that said anything good about the product. Because it's been around so long and has to date, failed every objective test, I'd suggest to hang it on the christamss tree, where at least you can see it's shiney, than to burry it in your car, where only lack of objective validation can support any claims to improvement."

I know I'm not being as kind as I could here.


1) What is the proper response to "I'm sure 2+2=5"? Is it to say that's nice and we're all entitled to our opinion? Maybe get the "2+2=4" crowd in to provide "fair and balanced" reporting? Or should someone say "go back to math class"? I'm in the "go back to math class" crowd.....

2) There are no arguments that can be made against "I tried it and it worked for me" if the one making the arguement won't do any type of double blind experiments, or good statistical analysis. Heck, it even happens to skeptics like me! I was sure that a TB had improved my HP by 8.... But I redid the experiments more carefully, with control, and proper statistics, I'd found that my first fast measurement was wrong! Guess what, I'd posted both results, and ate crow for the first one, with full disclosure that I'd gotten it wrong before. A good scientists says what he measured, how it was measured, and how the data was interpreted. A good scientist isn't always right, but is always disciplined in the persuit of truth. (This wasn't really a double blind study, but it sure had good control and repeats to trust the numbers.)

And hitting the head to clear though only works for small hits! Try it with a 16 lb sledge and call me when the concussion clears....

But really, the right thing to do with guys like uhkan24 is not to encourage, but to educate. I hope that he's learned something. And maybe if he still wants to do it, he can figure out a way to do the testing that will satisfy guys like me who are trained in data collection and interpretation.

So sorry if I came off heavy here, or even disrespectfull. We live in a complicated world, with the average understanding of what makes everything work decreasing in time (and optimist would say there's just more to know, a pessimest that the schools suck). So I get all bent at the propogation of BS, or unsound testing, because this is how we perpetuate BS that does no good to anyone (except those 4 groups mentioned earlier that bank $ off this thing).

Matt

 

I was considering getting one of these to see if it would cause enough turbulence in the airflow to stop the %*#&^&$#^* throttle body whistle that made me remove my brand new DDM CAI

The next step is buying a couple of extras for your exhaust tips to boost that sweet, sweet exhaust thrust That's gotta be worth at least 10HP!

 

I just wanted to add... that I emailed a link to this thread to my old college physics professor at Indiana University so he could read it.

He emailed me back baffled at how it defies both scientific reason and beligerantly fights against knowledge of his subject area. So much so apparently, he is going to print it off and display it in class.

Cheers I think we just entertained an entire lecture hall for about 20 minutes.

 

There you have it, people. The Tornado is, in fact, a faith-based performance upgrade.

 

Glad I post under pseudo name. Only 20min, I htought this would have been good for 1/2 an hour.

I wonder if his class would be willing to do some testing and report back to us.

And please understand part for formulating an arguement (as opposed to simple bickering) is the ability to support that arguement with fact. Because without the fact all you have is opinion and opinion is not an agurement.

 

Since Halloween just passed I pose this analogy. At Halloween parties as kids bags were passed around with peeled grapes and cold spaghetti. When told that they were eyeballs and brains some kids would get creeped out when they touched them. Others would feel peeled grapes and cold spaghetti.

When it comes to investing time and money in upgrades for our vehicles it is the hard data that will win out over feelings since everyone has different feelings.

I am sure that there are others here that would be happy to purchase the Tornado if data was given to show any improvements in any area. But until the the hard facts of science win out.

I do agree with you since ukkahn already has the tornado, why not try it out? Hopefully he will share his feelings and if so inclined post data.

 

how do you measure fun factor without feeling?


like i said,

NEXT!!!

 

He's got you there - it's well documented that Jesus used the Tornado's turbulence inducing characteristics to generate almost unlimited loaves & fishes. So Doc, stop confusing the issue with facts until you get the Tornado, accept it as your personal gas-savior, etc.

 

We own a 2003 MC, PW. We bought it new. I put in A K&N air filter & the
Tornado product in within a few Months after taking delivery. I found a clear
improvement in performance & a slight increase in MPG. I am very happy with
both products.

HAFPINT

 

I think the improvement you noticed is more due to the K&N filter, and the engine in your Mini becoming broken in. My MPG increased at around 3,000 miles, and I never changed a thing.

 

^^ yah, I have to agree with Gromit. all new cars have terrible
mpg and bad throttle response until the ECU adapts to its working
environment.

a drop-in filter is great in terms of not needing to have to buy another
oe filter on a NA car. thats about the most improvement you will net.

a tornado is great in terms of having that feeling of throttle response
improvement.

both have a very important feeling mod for the drivers. if it feels good, why
not? i think my MOMO shift **** feels and looks good... why not?

 

no offense taken and surely non given. thank you for the expletive explanation of your scientific theoretical teachings to educate me and others who try to deny the laws of science with our experience or feeling. man of science is always right until proven false, and i respect your integrity to admit when wrong was made to make it right again. i practice the same notion onto my life and conservsing with others to make practical points. since you are a man of science, why would you not ornament the tornado on a christmas tree when christmas is proven to be false? partiality is pending obstruction of ones decree in character to prove oneself to be right and stay right by the use of power of education and words. if you need prove on all matters to make it legit and respectful, than christmas can not be put aside and say 'yes' its true.
my experience on this product is of my experience without any data proven. if you wish for me to get the data from an independent specialist, can you pay for my visitation? $55 product will not make me go spend $100's of dollars for proof to suffice those with just theories.

 

LOL thanks for the humor. i liked the similies....

 

according to many intellects in this alliance, YOU ARE CRAZY!!!

thanks for your input and hope you wont get bombarded like i did for saying exactly what you said.

 

I'm not the one that claimed a gain in gas milage .
And yep, as an agnostic I do a christmass tree every year. I put shiney stuff on it too, and none of the items improve my MPG, but I will stick to my claims that more shiney stuff does make the reflections of the lights look better.

I'm happy your happy. But that's way different than advocacy.

Man of science isn't always right untill proven wrong, but I'd sure put my money on an explanation with some first principles behind it as opposed to one that had none, all else being equal.

Now here's where it gets interesting... Let's say it doesn't work at all BUT for whatever reason it causes you to drive differently such that you DO gain a bit of MPG. Then do you leave it in or take it out?

about 1/3rd of people report improved health when treated with placebos. Even though the sugar pill doesn't do anything chemically, who's to argue with improved health? The grey area with items like this have to do not with the basis of their operation, but how their presence in the system modifies the entire system behaviour.

But then I don't think they'd sell to well if the add was "It doesn't do anything, but since you think it will, you will recieve benefit." I don't really see a clear path to an absolute position on items that interact with the whole system in this way, but as others have pointed out, they aren't on the best of race cars, and will have no value in peak power production. To each their own.

Matt

 

But you're also not claim ing (nor is MOMO) that your shift **** will net you MPG or Hp gains Because theat shift **** is just ast effective at Hp gains as the TORNADO