A serious question ... especially if you have sunk at least $10K in mods to your MCS.

Above the MSRP of what I paid for our MINI, I sunk at least another $10K into the car ... always in the quest to make it better performing ... and thats without getting wheels/tires. I am sure, w/o going twincharge, many ppl here have spent $15K plus. This turns a $25K car easily into a $40K car (not market value but in parts/labour).

For the moment, lets forget that it might by your hobby ... ppl have built hotrods since the dawn of the Model T

WHY doesn't MINI just build the true hot rod many MINI enthusiasts desire???

If they did it right ... I bet ppl would be lining up to give a deposit ... and not trying to flip them.

Does anyone know the "real" reason? Is it a BMW thing? You got M3s and M6s and even then ... Dinan does its thing to them. Why not just do it right the first time and get ALL the profits that enthusiasts spend in aftermarket bits?

It would seem to me that there would be a market for such a car, its not like they have to sell 30K units ...

In looking at the Turbos ... I am sure the cycle from the first gen is about to repeat itself. Car comes out. JCW comes out. Tuners do their thing ... Tuners get those profits. Why doesn't BMW just take ALL the profits???

My "feeling" on this is that BMW just won't let it happen. Maybe its a BMW thing?

Or is the market for a real hotrod just so small as to not make it profitable for BMW?

Anybody know the REAL reason?

 

They did- see the GP. That's close and comes with a warranty. The demand is there but it is limited given the higher prices, relatively small size of the MINI, and they don't want to compete with BMW M3s.

The other idea is that M series cars are reserved for BMWs and not for the MINI line. MC 40 was a quasi attempt in the past but mostly just good looks. The GP is a step in the right direction and actually decently good in performance but I would have put on some really lightweight rims.

Everything is a compromise, build a high performance car such as Subaru and Mitsubishi has done and many younger hotrodders will give it a try and stress the limits of the car's durability.

BMW and MINI are trying to balance selling price vs product durability (includes the warranty) with product performance and reliability under normal use.

Performance driving can be hard on a car especially on the track. Autocross is not so bad except on tires and brake pads. Driving school events can be hard to tires and brakes.

 

I think that part of the fun is doing it yourself and choosing what features you want to emphasize. Some people are all about engine mods, whereas others like the suspension and handling (sway bars).

I think that even if MINI made the "true hot rod" that you speak of, people would still mod it. Not saying that they shouldn't make one... Because I know I'd love one and would've chosen it over the S....

Hey, wait a second...? Didn't they make the JCW and GP to fulfill that need of a "true hot rod"? And I've noticed how many threads there are about people modding their GPs even further.

There'll never be an end to the mods

 

Volume and warranty. The numbers don't justify building a new engine for a "hotrod" MINI, and MINI doesn't want to warranty the current 1.6L engine beyond the current JCW/GP level.

 

Generally, the "hotrod" models are prepped and ready to go but not released until interest in the line starts to wane. The turbo New Beetle is a perfect example because, like the MINI, there is no way they can significantly redesign the exterior to raise sales. It's a tool used to maintain interest in aging platforms (like the VW R32), and the MINI has been selling well enough that there has been no need to use it... yet.

When MINI sales start flagging, look out for an AWD high performance variant. Of course it doesn't always work: the 2732 lb, 160hp, 1.6L turbo AWD 1991 Isuzu Impulse 'RS' (same engine used in the M100 Lotus Elan) failed to rekindle much interest in the car and the entire line was shelved in 1992.

 

GP40? what is that? You mean the GP Works car, 214 HP?

The not "competing" with M3s ties into my theory that BMW will not allow it. As to price vs perf/reliability, its easy to get into the high 30s with JCW and some options. That moving up into a totally different level car than the maybe the targeting 22 - 25K price range. Therefore, I see no reason MINI can't just say "Hey, this is the hot car ... and it cost more ... you gotta pay but you wont have to buy the aftermarket bits"

I said: "For the moment, lets forget that it might by your hobby ... ppl have built hotrods since the dawn of the Model T"

Let's set that aside. People by F430s and mod those (well minor mods) too. I'm trying to get at MINIs motive behind not selling the hot car themselves.
Yes, I buy that for 02 - 06. In fact, I've heard the SC was just a stop gap measure to get the car to market, never intended for the long run. Its a turbo world, not a SC world.

However, I see the same cycle about to happen in the 2nd gen. Now is the time for MINI to stand up and leak out ... "Hey guys/and ladies ... the really hot one is coming out in ... in the future". This is no different than Ford telling the world a 500HP Shelby is coming 18 months in advance or Chevy leaking that the monster replacement for the Z06 is being tested.

I'm still leaning towards BMW will not let it happen.

BFG wrote: Generally, the "hotrod" models are prepped and ready to go but not released until interest in the line starts to wane.

Hmm. Maybe. But what about Mustang? I doubt their sales were dropping ... or the replacement for the Z06?

 

The M models have completely different engines than their regular counterparts. BMW would have had to sink some $ and time into R&D squeezing more out then they probably would have wanted.

Let's face it the Tritec was not the most flexible platform for cost effective squeezing of more performance. In general, putting $5K in a head, header, exhaust, ECU tuning, injectors, intake, etc. to get maybe 40 to 50 whp is relatively expensive.

Compare this to the STis, EVOs and *gasp* SRT-4s - where with a simple TBE and flash for $1,200.00 nets you roughly the same increase.

My good buddy got a Mustang dyno increase of about 44 whp on an 06 MR with a generic flash tune and catback exhaust. This jumped another 33 whp with a dyno tune and full TBE. She hasn't even broken the $2K barrier and it'll be a snap to get it back to stock if need be.

On my 03 MCS, I spent over $7,500.00 in power mods to get a 70 whp increase. Some of these mods involved tearing apart the engine.....

A more conspiratorial part of me suspects that BMW will never build an in-house Mini that dares creep up on the performance of the 3 series hot rods - but that's my paranoia talking........

By the way, what the hell is a GP 40?

 

That's just it though, now is not the time.

We're at the being of a 5-6 year cycle. I wouldn't expect to hear solid rumors of a hotter than JCW kit MINI for at least a few years.

Just to review the R53 cycle

Launch (May 2002) - the R53 goes on sale

Launch + ~9 months (Early 2003) - the JCW kits become available

Launch + 3 years (Early 2005) - the very first rumors of a "Special Edition" MCS lightweight surface (this became the R53 GP)

Launch + 3.5 years (October 2005) - The GP debuts at MINI United

Launch + 4.5 years - The very first GP's are delivered

So put me down for R56 GP rumors around about late 2009

 

I think the PSA twin cammer/TC engine will be easier to tune than old lumpy.

I'm hopeful that the next JCW will be the next factory hot rod.

 

I think thats my point. Why doesn't MINI take your $7,500 dollars instead of an aftermarket tuner?

Since the new M3 is 400HP and probably in the $80K range, I hardly think BMW has any worries about MINI competing with it but again ... that falls in line with my thinking ... BMW will not let it happen. In other words, its an administrative or policy decisions ... Thou Shalt NOT tread on BMW turf.

Ahh ... I think you missed my original thought. I'm not talking the equivalent of the GP. I am sure there are many MCS owners with more BHP than 214. I was talking to REALLY do it right ... 250 bhp from the factory ... numbers that the enthusiasts quest after and want. ... I'm not getting into a GP discussion

Just looking for the reason. Surely they know the enthusiasts seek a higher performing car. I'm betting the R56 JCW comes in like Gabe mentioned around 225? Tuners will be jumping all over that with bigger numbers.

In the late 60s, early 70s ... Ford dumped the 429 Nascar engine into the mustang detuned. They didn't sell many but they gave the Mustang enthusiasts a NASCAR engine. Chrysler built the Superbird simply to get the body homogulated for NASCAR. Sold few but the Mopar enthusiasts got a rocket (for the times). I was HOPING MINI might listen to the enthusiast rather than giving the money to aftermarket tuners testing bits and pieces ...

 

I didn't miss a thing Chows. Call it what you want "hotrod" or "R56 GP" it's still going to be the fastest Factory produced MINI.

That fastest factory MINI was not what you wanted with the R53 for exactly the reasons I gave in my earlier post (volume and warranty). They couldn't justify building a new engine (ala the ///M3) because the numbers didn't justify it, and they didn't want to warranty the current 1.6L beyond the 207-215 HP level.

For the R56 GP (and I will continue to use that designation, because I believe MINI will carry that forward to whatever factory "hotrod" they make for the R56), who knows, we might get a 2.0L engine or maybe a larger turbo.

In any case, I don't expect you'll get any good indication of what that will be for at least a few years (ref: time table above of rollout for the last fastest factory MINI).

 

The stated reason Mazda has intentionally never equipped the Miata with a powerful engine is to keep insurance costs low. That's what drove the 300ZX, Supra and RX-7 from the market in the United States and Mazda wanted to keep sales of their sporty car from suffering the same fate.

Chows, I think Porsche is the company most famous for setting top speed limiters so that owners of their more expensive models won't ever be embarrassed by a "lesser" Porsche. They are even so sensitive to owners complaining their example won't reach the speeds tested in the magazines that they make all their speedometers go wildly optimistic above 130mph as well.

Yes, the reason the MINI appears poky is because of the current horsepower race among supercars. But the MINI is a volume car like the Beetle and not a low-volume "halo" supercar intended to mostly raise awareness of the brand. It is well known that such cars like the 959 were sold at a loss as a technology showcase and never intended for volume production.

 

Grasshopper you are shooting for the stars.......you put a hot rod Mini out there for about 35K and you begin to potentially sap sales from the 328 and the 335 - BMWs entry level car. The 328 bases at about 32 large and the 335 at 38K.

A upwardly-mobile guy or gal looking for a fun car now has a harder choice to make. The ultimate goal of the ultimate car company is to lure people to the marque, not away. Making a hot-rod Mini that performs on par with the 335, and potentially better than the 328 and you are luring potential buyers to another option.

The Mini is intended to be the first step, then as the family and the income increases the 3 series, the 5 series and by the time they are your age Chows, the 7 series - or a Lincoln

Then again, I'm probably just paranoid - right?

 

That's the cradle-to-grave strategy advocated by GM.

LOL, Chows did say he was driving before FWD was invented... ~80+ years ago?

 

This I can believe. That would be like what killed the Muscle Cars ... the cost of insurance.

I was talking MINI because I meant MINI and BMW. I just hate the idea of buying say a 2008 Turbo and dumping another $10K into it.

There are NO speed limiters on any Porsche. BMW, AUDI, and MB have a gentleman's agreement to limit their top speeds in the US to 150mph. The reasons I have heard is because of liability lawsuits because of tires. Of course, a Dinan chip, can remove that BMW speed limiter.

Porsche has always refused to play that game. They all use the Z rated tires rated to 200 MPH (or something like that). Any Porsche that says it can do say 182 from the factory WILL do 182, all day along, and you can take it to the bank.

I believe what you may be referring to is the current stink over detuning the CS. Its pretty well known that the chassis can take far more HP and being mid-engined, "embarrass" the iconic 997. The factory driver drove the car 4 secs quicker around the Ring than the 997 (despite 30 less HP) and Porsche simply cannot have that. This has caused a stink and has hurt 997 sales (not 997S) sales because many people who can afford a 997 chose not to. This irritates the CS people because the car screams out for more power.

With the entire 997 line getting a mid-life "face-lift" in 2008 and a power bump from 5 - 25HP across the range, this further infurtiates CS owners who think they too will get some HP bump. IMO, not going to happen until 2009 as they go in 3 year cycles. This also pushes the base 997 just a BIT faster than the CS and retains the iconic lead.

I think that is what you may be referring to in "embarrasing" the icon.

The 959 was a technology showcase, their first supercar, with the street versions only existing for FIA homogulation (just like NASCAR required Ford to build say 500 cars with a 429 engine in it). I have no idea if they made a profit or not but proved that AWD was viable for their cars. When car makers make a certain limited run of cars for homogulation, I dont think they care about the profit. They only do it so they can race. Of the 200 street versions built, none are legal for use in the US. In fact, I think Bill Gates has one of the four brought to the US but they are collector pieces.

I don't know why you brought up the 959 as that is not what I was talking about. Thats like saying the Carrera GT today (which is also out of production). If you want to compare apples to oranges ... it would be more like the GT3-RS or more likely the 996 GT2 ... cars legal for the street but really race cars intended for owners to just race (not track days) the cars. In fact, that would be a good analogy. It would be nice to see a MINI ... GT3-RS equivalent. But I guess it would never happen.

You wrote: But the MINI is a volume car like the Beetle and not a low-volume "halo" supercar intended to mostly raise awareness of the brand.

I assume you wrote that comparing against Porsche? I only know US sales figures but:

2006 MINI (all) 36669 http://www.gbmini.net/wp/mini_sales/
2006 Porsche (all) 33,148 plus ~2700 for December ... 35848 http://www.porsche.com/usa/aboutpors...id=2006-12-01\

Looks to me they sell about they sell the same number of cars in the US.

Skip wrote: The Mini is intended to be the first step, then as the family and the income increases the 3 series, the 5 series and by the time they are your age Chows, the 7 series - or a Lincoln

That is exactly what I meant. BMW will not allow it to happen.

With all due respect to Dave, I do not believe its about warranties. I believe its BMW corporate policy.

Thou shalt not TREAD on BMW Turf.

Did I read something about FWD being invented? Dude ... FWD is recent! When you get to my age ... A nice Cushy Cadillac is sounding good

 

There is also a relatively small market for such a car. The GP was limited edition of 2000 worldwide to keep it desirable and ensure demand outstripped supply and raised MINI interest.

Some parts e.g. rear suspension was also used on the R56 thus reducing development costs.

There may be some reluctance to challenge M cars, however I think this is a minor part of it and that they will not so it because they won't sell enough of them to make a big enough profit or that they would only take sales away from the other MINI models. Special editions will keep interest levels up and generate additional exceitments on sites such as this.

On the R56 PSA turbo engine it may be more difficult to improve performance as this is a much more complicated engine than the previous supercharged model. Reports I read from Euro tuners indicates this is the case.

 

Chows, your BMW's toes theory sounds very plausible and may well be the case but at this point it's all speculation (maybe they are smarter than VW/Audi and don't want similar cars in two brands to compete). Not all Porsches are supercars but yes you are right about the speeds and that's what I had meant, they've been juggling horsepower levels for years to maintain a hiearchy of top speeds according to price. I remember there was a similar stink back when the 944 turbo S passed 911 levels of performance (the base 944 turbo had the same 217hp as the 911 3.2 Carrera and the new S beat both by 30hp).

But I'm too young to remember FWD cars of the 1920s like the Cord.

 

I thought that was what you meant

From reading threads, I cannot tell you how much hatred and venom comes from "some" of the iconic owners. The base car owners. Their venom comes across, IMO, like they are just waiting for the CS to fail.

On the other side, "some" CS owners are mad at Porsche for crippling the car. A 3.8l X51 engine drops right into the engine bay but would destroy the 997S and some tuners sell that conversion.

Why can't people just be thankful for what they got:impatient Peace

Cord? WTH is a cord?

 

I would hazard a guess that unless the MINI gains AWD it is never going to get much more than about 250hp from the factory, simply because putting much more than that down on a damp road is somewhat difficult.

As for protecting the BMW entry level, well maybe, but you only have to drive a 3-series back-to-back with a Mini and there really is no comparrison. The 3-series is a better car in almost every way. It is more comfortable, quieter, much more refeined and way better mannered. Not to mention that the engine note of the i6 is wonderful compared the the thrashy i4 in the MCS. This is not to say that I want a 3-series (my wife has one), just that even a 325i has 95% of the performance but makes about 1% of the fuss about it, it is a better car, it it way more grown up.

Makeing a fire-breathing Mini would almost demand that it had the ability to put the power down, this is generally BMW's way - the latest M3 can put every one of those horses down in the dry, and in the damp the electronics keep it all under control.

Try that with even an excellent FWD chassis and much over 250hp is really hard to put down.....

 

Uh Chowise maybe we need to venture off NAM a little more. This is part of the reason I miss go MINI. MINI base model is a 95bhp Cooper one, the Cooper (115bhp) I consider the next model up WRR calls it the factory hot rod, then there is the Cooper S (165 bhp) and then the offer a factory tunning kit with a fancy badge to give you a JCW (200 or 210 bhp) and then the offer a seprate car with even more HP and lighter with some custom styling and exclusivity for the GP (214 bhp)

Now for comparison lets take a look at the 3 series

There is

328i
335i
M3
M3 CSL

So I think there is a factory hot rod and people are buying it in large quanitities you just need to expand your veiw a little and realize on the world wide scale base of a MINI is less than 100hp and is an efficent yet comfprtable commuter and that there are options to make the hot hatch a factory hot rod (and in doing so more than double the power output of the base model while maintaining an economical fun to drive decent at cornering car). But true hot rodding invlolves owner/driver tinkering anyway so I find hard to believe you'll find a true factory hot rod eventhough there are advanced prefomance options availible.

 

People ask these questions about regular BMWs too. That's kinda why BMW continues to bring out more and more powerful models.

But most people never tune or mod their car. You see a lot of it here on the boards but how many people really modify their car? 5% or 10%? It's not worth the money or the warantee headaches to deal with that, above and beyond what BMW already offers through the John Cooper Works packages.

Plus, do we really want or need more powerful MINIs? MINIs seem designed to handle well up to around 200hp. Put much more power than that behind the wheels and torque steer creeps in, at which point it's time to get a balanced RWD car like a 1 series (hopefully we'll see them in the states soon) or (if you can live with the bulk) a 3 series.

(of course I also argued on the BMW boards that the Z4 3.0i with 225 horses and a 0-60 time of 5.4 seconds was fast enough and that we really did not need the M version to go faster... just handle better)

 

Hmmm... interesting topic.

Not to be too nitpicky, but does BMW make ANY real hotrod straight out of the factory? I'm asking this because it seems like (at least the last time I checked), even the M3's, M5's, etc. had factory set "speed governed" top speeds. So even if you buy and M3/M5 you'd still have to spend extra $ to override the factory governed top end.

 

Motor, I know full well the UK MINI lineup but you know only 2 cars come to the US. I would also call the M6 the true BMW performance car, not the M3 (Until we see what happens for 2008. So I dont see your point.

If Ford can make a V6 Mustang and 500 HP Shelby ...
Chevy a Z06 and upcoming "blue lighting" or whatever its called at 650HP (or whatever) ... see the point

I'm still convinced Skip got it right. Thou shalt not mess with BMW turf and that probably answers my question. It would be no different than saying Camaro ... for 2008 you can have 450 HP but your not going to touch the Z06.

Torque Steer? I though MINIs didn't have torque steer due to the equal length control arms. Torque steer I know from an Eclipse FWD Turbo ... massive torque steer but a MINI?

Good point. Forget about the speed limiter ... thats the Gentlemans Agreement between the car marker. However I wouldn't really even call an M6 truly hot although its a great car, truly a great car but to many its too much of a Luxo boat.

 

Heck man, that's why God invented the good ole 426 Hemi and 440 Six Pack -- to lay a good ole straight line whompin' on the vette and Shelby's!

 

I guess I was under the impression that BMW veiwed organized and treated the MINI brand as slightly more than just one more model a low-budget FWD BMW without the name and then if you really wanted significantly more you paid the price to go to a higher BMW. 7 series 5 series 3 series MINI (now I know thery're adding more and more that changes that but I'm using it to make the grand scheme point)

Plus the MINI line has over 130 bhp variations within it, and that a fairly significant amount.