R55 Is the Clubman S considered a sports car?
#51
I think this is my favorite of all the recurring conversations on this site. Discussing what something is and isn't can be so interesting.
I agree that there is no definition, and I will grant that my R53 and the Clubman S are sporty, athletic sorts of cars. But I can't put them in the same class as 911 GT3s, Lotus Exiges, so on and so forth - to me, those cars are purpose-built for sporting means, whereas MINIs are built with many things in mind. Maybe a sports car is a car with a more single focus, and a sporty car is a normal car that leans in that direction?
Then I think about it like this: I have two cars and one is way more sporty than the other, so that's my sports car.
mb
I agree that there is no definition, and I will grant that my R53 and the Clubman S are sporty, athletic sorts of cars. But I can't put them in the same class as 911 GT3s, Lotus Exiges, so on and so forth - to me, those cars are purpose-built for sporting means, whereas MINIs are built with many things in mind. Maybe a sports car is a car with a more single focus, and a sporty car is a normal car that leans in that direction?
Then I think about it like this: I have two cars and one is way more sporty than the other, so that's my sports car.
mb
#52
A lot of this seems to say that a Miata is not a sports car cause it doesn't have enough engine?
I tend to disagree with the performance aspect. Probably because I grew up with the MGTD's, TR-3's, Austin Healy's and Sprite's, MG's. They were all sports cars and yet they could not win a drag race against most US station wagons. In fact, a lot of the 'heavy iron' could win on a road race if there was any kind of real speed involved.
Sports Car to me is still defined mostly by it's layout, 2 doors, 2 seats, and 'small'. There is some 'feel' to the definition too as I don't consider the recent Thunderbird a sports car, but, I do the Viper and they are both about the same overall size. I also remember the Honda del Sol, a 2 seater, that I did not consider a sports car. Same with the Smart car. 2 seater, 2 doors and small. Not a sports car to me.
To me if it has a rear seat then it is not a sports car. Yep, the old 911 was a sport sedan. Gets into weird territory. Like the Z 2+2 series. Sports car or sedan? I'd have to say sedan.
Most of this used to sort itself out in racing classes, usually the SCCA's domain. Buth that has gotten a bit confusing in recent years too.
Call it what you want, it's your car
charlie
I tend to disagree with the performance aspect. Probably because I grew up with the MGTD's, TR-3's, Austin Healy's and Sprite's, MG's. They were all sports cars and yet they could not win a drag race against most US station wagons. In fact, a lot of the 'heavy iron' could win on a road race if there was any kind of real speed involved.
Sports Car to me is still defined mostly by it's layout, 2 doors, 2 seats, and 'small'. There is some 'feel' to the definition too as I don't consider the recent Thunderbird a sports car, but, I do the Viper and they are both about the same overall size. I also remember the Honda del Sol, a 2 seater, that I did not consider a sports car. Same with the Smart car. 2 seater, 2 doors and small. Not a sports car to me.
To me if it has a rear seat then it is not a sports car. Yep, the old 911 was a sport sedan. Gets into weird territory. Like the Z 2+2 series. Sports car or sedan? I'd have to say sedan.
Most of this used to sort itself out in racing classes, usually the SCCA's domain. Buth that has gotten a bit confusing in recent years too.
Call it what you want, it's your car
charlie
#54
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#55
I basically agree w/ mbcoops.
I cannot call the clubman a sports car
I also do not call my R53 a sports car
In my opinion a sports car is not designed to be driven everywhere everyday... a weekend car (think lotus)
whereas a MINI, IMO, is a sporty car, and I would say the clubman, while still sporty, is less sporty. but the GP is more sporty
I think the GP is the closest MINI to a sports car b/c of the reduced weight, removed seats, and reduced sound deadening, and increased power. also, b/c it is a limited production car, most people do not use it as their daily driver.
I cannot call the clubman a sports car
I also do not call my R53 a sports car
In my opinion a sports car is not designed to be driven everywhere everyday... a weekend car (think lotus)
whereas a MINI, IMO, is a sporty car, and I would say the clubman, while still sporty, is less sporty. but the GP is more sporty
I think the GP is the closest MINI to a sports car b/c of the reduced weight, removed seats, and reduced sound deadening, and increased power. also, b/c it is a limited production car, most people do not use it as their daily driver.
#56
#57
but... I guess you could say I'm a "purist" as I would have difficulty calling the M3 a "sports car"
but a ford mustang has always been considered a sports car (by the general public, not me) yet it has 4 seats and until you get a model that costs double the base sticker price, it's slow
but a ford mustang has always been considered a sports car (by the general public, not me) yet it has 4 seats and until you get a model that costs double the base sticker price, it's slow
#58
Not the only one. The Solstice is here now. The Ford GT came and went. Same with the Fiero. The first Thunderbird. Then there were the small mfg ones, Cunningham, Allard J3, Cobra (hybrid US/UK), etc. The Corvette is the only one that survives with steady sales year to year.
And, I agree, the Mustang/Camaro/Firebird, were never and never will be sports cars.
charlie
And, I agree, the Mustang/Camaro/Firebird, were never and never will be sports cars.
charlie
#59
Not the only one. The Solstice is here now. The Ford GT came and went. Same with the Fiero. The first Thunderbird. Then there were the small mfg ones, Cunningham, Allard J3, Cobra (hybrid US/UK), etc. The Corvette is the only one that survives with steady sales year to year.
And, I agree, the Mustang/Camaro/Firebird, were never and never will be sports cars.
charlie
And, I agree, the Mustang/Camaro/Firebird, were never and never will be sports cars.
charlie
#62
#63
The clubman is a sports sedan no matter which powerplant you put in it. My e92 M3 doesn't even qualify as a GT because it is essentially a 2-door sports sedan (If it were a real GT there would be no 4-door variant). A 2+2 or a 2 seater begins the qualifications for sports car. And if my M3 doesn't count our Cooper S clubmen don't either. That said, sports sedan is a pretty broad category that includes some very desirable cars.
#64
#65
Lets look carefully look over what Wikipedia has to say.
Now lets break it down:
A sports car is a term used to describe a class of automobile. The exact definition varies, [1] but generally it is used to refer to a low to ground,
Well a Mini Clubman is low to the ground.
Point One YES
Mine is light weight and has a powerfull engine.
Point two YES
But not all.
Point Three YES
Mine has two seats. Okay it has two more as well but it meets the requirement. BTW many of the classic Sports Cars also had rear seats. So maybe they were not quite as usable but they were there.
Point Ffour YES
Again mine has the two doors, and three extras so it also meats the requirmtent. And again many of the calsic sports cars had a third door (hatch)
Point Five YES
Mini's are definitely designed for Precise handling and acceleration.
Point Six YES
I love the aesthetics of my clubman.
Point Seven YES
A mini CLubman meets all of these requirements.
Point Eight YES
These are just added benefits.
Point Nine Questionable
Mine is luxurious and others i have seen are more spartan.
Point Ten YES
Many of us drive them for the mechanical performance.
Point Eleven YES
Opps they left out the Mini Racing heritage. There is definitely a racing heritage.
Point Twelve YES
So cars that are not raced ar also considered sports cars.
Point Thirteen YES
So with 12 out of thirteen questions answered YES tehn a clubman MUST be a Sports Car.
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
A sports car is a term used to describe a class of automobile. The exact definition varies, [1] but generally it is used to refer to a low to ground, light weight vehicle with a powerful engine. Most vehicles referred to as sports cars are rear-wheel drive, have two seats, two doors, and are designed for more precise handling, acceleration, and aesthetics. A sports car's dominant considerations can be superior road handling, braking, maneuverability, low weight, and high power, rather than passenger space, comfort, and fuel economy.
Sports cars can be either luxurious[2] or spartan, but driving mechanical performance is the key attraction. Many drivers regard brand name and the subsequent racing reputation and history as important indications of sporting quality (for example, Ferrari, Porsche, Lotus), but some brands, such as Lamborghini, which do not race or build racing cars, are also highly regarded.
A sports car is a term used to describe a class of automobile. The exact definition varies, [1] but generally it is used to refer to a low to ground, light weight vehicle with a powerful engine. Most vehicles referred to as sports cars are rear-wheel drive, have two seats, two doors, and are designed for more precise handling, acceleration, and aesthetics. A sports car's dominant considerations can be superior road handling, braking, maneuverability, low weight, and high power, rather than passenger space, comfort, and fuel economy.
Sports cars can be either luxurious[2] or spartan, but driving mechanical performance is the key attraction. Many drivers regard brand name and the subsequent racing reputation and history as important indications of sporting quality (for example, Ferrari, Porsche, Lotus), but some brands, such as Lamborghini, which do not race or build racing cars, are also highly regarded.
A sports car is a term used to describe a class of automobile. The exact definition varies, [1] but generally it is used to refer to a low to ground,
Point One YES
light weight vehicle with a powerful engine.
Point two YES
Most vehicles referred to as sports cars are rear-wheel drive,
Point Three YES
have two seats,
Point Ffour YES
two doors,
Point Five YES
and are designed for more precise handling, handling acceleration,
Point Six YES
and aesthetics.
Point Seven YES
A sports car's dominant considerations can be superior road handling, braking, maneuverability, low weight, and high power,
Point Eight YES
rather than passenger space, comfort, and fuel economy.
Point Nine Questionable
Sports cars can be either luxurious[2] or spartan,
Point Ten YES
but driving mechanical performance is the key attraction.
Point Eleven YES
Point Twelve YES
but some brands, such as Lamborghini, which do not race or build racing cars, are also highly regarded.
Point Thirteen YES
So with 12 out of thirteen questions answered YES tehn a clubman MUST be a Sports Car.
#67
To me a true modern sports car is one where extracting optimal performance and speed is the paramount objective of its design. Even strapping a huge engine in a Merc estate for example doesn't make it a sports car in my eyes, just aerodynamically it doesn't work and in the end it is an engine and technology striving to overcome the inherent nature of the car.
Sure there are a lot of fun sporty cars, just IMHO the subjective enjoyment factor does not make it a sports car.
Sure there are a lot of fun sporty cars, just IMHO the subjective enjoyment factor does not make it a sports car.
#68
In terms of ride height the clubman borders on compact sport utility vehicle.
I'm not sure 160hp can be considered powerful when most of the other cars in our class are making 200+.
#70
2000 VW 9" to ground
2003 chrysler mini van 11' to ground.
2003 BMW 525 "SPORTS"wagon 5.5" to ground
And BTW yours is much lower as well from the last pictures i saw.
Oh and buy the way Mine has been on the Drag Strip (factory stock) and beat out a 2000 Mustang, mid 70's Matador with turbo installed and a 2007 VW Golf. Now not all of these are SPORTS cars but if mine can beat the Mustang then i will consider my clubman a sports car.
But then again is can also see your point about it not being a sports car. So to each his own.
#71
I'm sorry, but I completely disagree. please, no one take this as an attack on schatzy62 -- that's not my intention at all. I just think there was a little bias involved in their judgment of the clubman (who wouldn't be biased toward their car, I know I would)
I think the GP is the only MINI that can be considered a sports car based on this definition...
Well a Mini Clubman is not low to the ground... the entire car can make it up or down a curb w/o bottoming out (this is tricky to accomplish, but it can be done)
Point One NO
Point two NO
Point Three NO
4 seats
Point Four NO
1+1=2, not 5
Point Five NO
Mini's are designed for Precise handling and acceleration... Clubman's are less in each of those categories than the Coopers. although some may argue aesthetics
Point Six NO
The entire purpose of the clubman is to be bigger, with more space, to provide more comfort.
Point Seven NO
Luxury=Aston Martin.. Spartan=Lotus
Point Eight NO
Performance is not the KEY attraction to a Clubman
Point Nine NO
Point Ten YES
So with 1 out of 10 questions answered YES, I (notice: this is MY opinion) would say the Clubman is NOT a "sports car"
I think the GP is the only MINI that can be considered a sports car based on this definition...
A sports car is a term used to describe a class of automobile. The exact definition varies, [1] but generally it is used to refer to a low to ground,
Point One NO
light weight vehicle with a powerful engine.
Most vehicles referred to as sports cars are rear-wheel drive,
have two seats,
Point Four NO
two doors,
Point Five NO
and are designed for more precise handling, handling acceleration, and aesthetics.
Point Six NO
A sports car's dominant considerations can be superior road handling, braking, maneuverability, low weight, and high power, rather than passenger space, comfort, and fuel economy.
Point Seven NO
Sports cars can be either luxurious[2] or spartan,
Point Eight NO
but driving mechanical performance is the key attraction.
Point Nine NO
Many drivers regard brand name and the subsequent racing reputation and history as important indications of sporting quality (for example, Ferrari, Porsche, Lotus), but some brands, such as Lamborghini, which do not race or build racing cars, are also highly regarded.
So with 1 out of 10 questions answered YES, I (notice: this is MY opinion) would say the Clubman is NOT a "sports car"
Last edited by MINI_chili; 11-20-2008 at 05:55 PM.
#72
Wow when did Wikipedia become any type of authority, unfortunately it's extremely subjective and in many cases inaccurate...But I digress.
Technically there are 3 different classes of sport cars. Muscle (nope), Exotic (I wish) and Tuners (bingo).
Regardless of the title we are looking to put on our Clubman's, my insurance increased $70 a half, compared to my 05 loaded GMC Yukon I traded in?
Technically there are 3 different classes of sport cars. Muscle (nope), Exotic (I wish) and Tuners (bingo).
Regardless of the title we are looking to put on our Clubman's, my insurance increased $70 a half, compared to my 05 loaded GMC Yukon I traded in?
#73
Sorry, but, I've never considered the Mustang a sports car. Nor any muscle cars. Some 'exotics' and 'tuners' are, but, not all of them. WRX was a great tuner, but, it is a sedan. RX7 was a great tuner and a sports car. Several Ferraris were exotic cars, but, with 4 seats would be sedans, while other Ferraris are definitely sports cars.
I still consider the Mini is a sport sedan. I could be talked into it being a GT.
I still consider the Mini is a sport sedan. I could be talked into it being a GT.
#75
I've never considered the Mustang a sports car.
Nor any muscle cars.
Several Ferraris were exotic cars
I still consider the Mini is a sport sedan.
I could be talked into it being a GT. A GT what? Mustang?